Return to Archives home
[ Index by Subject ] [ Index by Date ] [ New P&P2 BB ] [ FAQ ] [ Links ]
Posted by Eric on November 12, 1996 at 15:13:53:
£ A moralist to me is someone whose primary goal is to teach others how to behave. Some authors whom I see as moralists are Samuel Johnson and Ayn Rand. To me, dispensing her beliefs on how people should behave is not the primary reason JA wrote.
£ Good conduct is its own reward in JA's fiction. It's not like a Cinderella story, where Lizzy gets the prince because Lizzy is all beauty and virtue and patience. Lizzy gets the #10,000 because Darcy falls in love with her. Period. Jane certainly might be more "good" than Lizzy, but Darcy falls in love with Lizzy.
£ So it's very hard for me to see what moral system JA is espousing, if she is a moralist. Is it one where wit reigns supreme? Then Mr. Bennet should have been rewarded with a more sensible wife, no? Is it one where individualism is paramount? Then Lydia should have had a happier fate. No, the only thing I can see JA saying is that she likes Lizzy, and other heroines, despite their imperfections. So if she is a moralist, she is telling us we all should try to be like Lizzy - witty and hot-headed and loyal and stubborn and prejudiced and proud... Well, I might be able to subscribe to all that, but it would make for a very confusing 10 commandments.
£ -Arnessa (sorry to rattle away so much).
_______
Go ahead and rattle. I've deleted several of your paragraphs in my response that it might be clearer just what I am responding to, but be assured I've read the whole.
I would agree that JA is not writing PRIMARILY to dispense her beliefs on how others should live. She cannot, however, escape doing so in the course of her stories. And in that sense, she does intend to teach us how to behave. But JA wants us to see how we should behave in a real world where we are, as Darcy says, none of us without fault rather than in the world of a Mr. Collins where somehow he (and his benefactress) alone manage to escape fault while the rest of us live rather sordid lives requiring his correction. If presuming to a moral superiority is a requisite of the moralist, then JA was no moralist, but if one may teach as one who is also faulty, then JA was a moralist.
As for a system, I would not say that JA is offering a solid system. To be sure, the ten commandments are wonderful - but in the befuddled lives we tend to live, their precise applications can be puzzling to say the least. How, for example, does one in Elizabeth's position honor her mother? Was E responsible for bearing false witness against Darcy, or was Wickham, or both? And was Darcy not partially to blame for rendering the lie so believable? If JA had intended to write a systemic moral work, she would not have written novels. The systemizer is able to draw nice boundaries and put life in clear little boxes, but outside of class room theories, few of us live that way. Life is not so simple as Mr. Collins and Mary think it is. In real life, good people are sometimes misled into hurting others (as in Mr. Bingley's and Elizabeth's cases) and goodness of desire, action or both does not guarantee optimal results. JA, as a novelist, is able to (and I believe does) teach us how to behave in the context of such a very real life, full of mis-perceptions, mis-understandings, fractions of the truth which come out slowly, and desires both selfish and selfless. It is this which renders her lessons so palatable. Indeed, they are so easily digested that it hardly seems one has eaten save that one leaves her novels satisfied.
I would not disagree with the notion that JA thinks we should be like Lizzie - open-eyed to the world's vagaries, but willing to believe the truth when it is thrust upon her both for good and ill; willing to accept correction when applied (by Darcy's letter, by Jane, by Mr. and Mrs. Gardiner);willing to stand for what's right in the face of potent onslaughts (Mrs. B and Lady C.). But now we venture into propositions - and propositional truth, while still true, is devoid of context and this is the moralizing of a Mr. Collins, not a Jane Austen, the moralizing of a precision engineer rather than an artist.
Eric
Follow Ups:
Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on November 12, 1996 at 15:15:43:
I like the idea of using "]" as a quote character, but your script seems to be inserting three for every one that's needed, and in the wrong places too...
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kim on November 12, 1996 at 15:16:02:
In part 6, I love the way that Darcy looks at Lizzie when Bingley and he visit for the first time after returning to Netherfield. Also, when he first enters the room before Bingley suggests a walk. Those looks send shivers down my spine. I wonder what Darcy is thinking at these points.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Eric on November 12, 1996 at 15:18:41:
£ JA does have ideas about what is right and wrong, but she NEVER seeks to impose her ideas on others. We might conclude that she is right in her ideas. ... But JA never really seems to care if we think she's right or not. She never makes any threats that we, or any of her malicious characters, will burn in hell for not taking her word as gospel.
£ £ -Arnessa.
£
£ _______
£ Thank you all for your comments. I agree with you, Arnessa. Except I feel that what you say above, does make JA a moralist of sorts - the best, subtle, non-proselitising sort - which I think was what Eric was driving at.
£ Hilary
_______
It was. Thank you.
Eric
Posted by Cheryl on November 12, 1996 at 15:20:49:
£ What are you folks seeing? In all of the above I see only pound sterling signs - some in bold print and some not. Are you saying that if it is in bold type it is hard to look at?
£ Joan, too
_______
Joan, too, in some browsers (like mine- Netscape 2.01) the sterling symbol is appearing as words and not as symbols and that is what is cluttering things up. But Amy seems to have it all cleared up now (thanks Amy) so the point is moot. I just didn't want you to think some of us had gone crazy or something!
Cheryl
Posted by Ian on November 12, 1996 at 15:21:47:
£ Darcy's mum was Lady Anne before she married. As Darcy is not titled, neither will Elizabeth be titled.
]
£ Your humble servant, etc.
]
£ kathleen
]
_______
]
I agree that Elizabeth would not be titled because her husband is not. My question is: why was Darcy's mother titled when his father was not? Could a daughter inherit a title from a father? Lady Catherine was titled through marriage to Sir Lewis de Bourgh not through her father. Did JA err? (Horrors!) Is there someone familiar with aristocratic nomenclature who can clarify this for me? It has been bothering me for quite a while. Thanks. G
_______
G'day G,
You're opening a bastion of male chauvinism throughout the ages. Suffice to say only men (except a Queen) can pass on their title. However that depends on if the title was inherited, devolved(?), or bestowed. Wylkie Collins novel "The Woman in White" demonstrates the differences in the title "Sir" for example, but there would be more authorative texts on this subject.
Lady C. gained her title through marriage to her husband. But as he was the lowest of the Knight's Order then his title did not necessarily pass to Anne de Bourgh. Darcy's mother would have retained her title on her marriage, but it did not transfer to her husband or pass to her son.
Then again I'm just one of those colonial Aussies, so I could be telling lots of untruths! :)
Follow Ups:
Posted by Eric on November 12, 1996 at 15:22:00:
My father once sent me a quip cut out of a newspaper, when I was away at school: "To his daughter away at college studying the classics: 'Why don't you take a half hour off from declining irregular Greek nouns--after all, you can't keep declining nouns forever, one must eventually suit you.'"
£ Ann
_______
ROTFL
By the way, which one came to suit you?
Eric
Posted by Eric on November 12, 1996 at 15:25:45:
That sounds like a great idea, Candace. I had a red MGB convertible 15 years ago. (Being an MGB it was always in need of extensive repairs. I remember holding onto the steering wheel for dear life whenever the seat came loose from its track.) I think I'm ready for another one now, but a better model.
£ Joan, I like your mother's trick. In a recent letter from my mother to my children, after she described various interesting events and observations, she ended with, "Believe it or not, I am still learning something new every day. It never ends." She is 77 going on young! All the best,
£ : Janet
£ ___
_______
Some of us, however, will just have to grow old as we cannot afford Mustang convertables or MGBs...
As for your mother, it is those who still find life interesting enough to continue learning about it who live to be 77 or 88 or 99 or, as my own grandmother did, 106
Eric
Posted by Laura M on November 12, 1996 at 15:35:04:
Can you guys tell when the topic goes to a Forster novel or movie I just jump in. I love the guy. Awesome. Amy, please can we do a Maurice Virtual watch please, please, please. I love the movie. Hugh Grant, James Wilby, RUPERT, Rupert and James Wilby together. very risque but wonderful. Hugh Grant is totally awesome in this flick. I have seen it three times so far. I've read the book, awesome, awesome, awesome. Did you know that it was a banned book. Well it is about homosexuality. Amy, please let me know. Laura
Posted by Kali on November 12, 1996 at 15:41:20:
I've sort of passed on marriage for now, a la Emma, becuase I have impossibly high standards and don't feel a particular need to get hitched (plus, it's a lot more fun to set up my friends!). Many men accuse people with my outlook of elitism and unrealistic expectations. Ian, and all the other guys out there, would you say that men suffer from women's impossible expectations? Do women beat the spirit out of some guys?
]
£ Just curious about your views,
]
£ K
]
]
_______
]
Do women beat the spirit out of some guys? Undoubtedly. But then, some guys are wimps. Do men suffer from women's impossible expectations? As a class, no, for we are egotistical enough to believe we meet them. In particular instances, however, yes. As for being elitist and unrealistic, well, one might say Elizabeth was, too, but she was right. In my line of work, I see far too many people marry for the sake of marrying without regard to the potential defects in themselves or the other and with predictable results. And I see far too many people who bought into that idea that they were elitist and unrealistic for insisting on the best - and their lives are a shambles further on. No, Kali, stick to your ideals. Better a happy "old maid" than an unhappy wife.
]
Eric
_______
Thank you, Eric. I will certainly try not to go too far in either direction.
- K
Posted by Ian on November 12, 1996 at 15:44:21:
]
I better head this off:
]
Anybody know if it took being nobility to become First Lord Admiral (despite the office and cleaning training described in G&S's Lord Admiral's song)?
_______
Not necessarily. Being a Gentleman or being rich may have helped originally with gaining a lowly rank. In JA's day ranks could be purchased. However I think hard work, audacity and leadership etc also enabled one to climb the ladder - read some of the "Hornblower" series. One of Australia's often maligned figures was William Bligh (yes he of "The Mutiny of the Bounty") who was an early Governor of New South Wales. Anyway there was this little thing called the "Rum Rebellion" - a coup d'etat where he was overthrown. Lucky chap still got to be one of the Lord Admirals, the Red or the Blue can't remember. Upon retirement he would have been allowed to retain his rank with the customary RN (retired), as he was well above the level of a Lieutenant Commander.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 12, 1996 at 15:46:23:
£ £ Sorry, Janet. I just couldn't help it! I guess you can't teach an old cat new tricks (or ANY tricks, for that matter!)...
£ £ - K ;-)
£
£ _______
£ Well if that's the case how is Lizzy going to get Darcy to loosen up a bit?
_______
Thanks for keeping us honest, Ian. Actually, Darcy doesn't need to learn any tricks (THAT could be misconstrued as part of a deliberately false front). He simply needs to realize that he is very perfect just the way he is, and doesn't need to be a snob. I think he has learned from Elizabeth that too much haughtiness provides more trouble than protection. Now, he can relax and become himself for others to see and know.
- K
Posted by Amy on November 12, 1996 at 16:25:07:
]
I like the idea of using "]" as a quote character, but your script seems to be inserting three for every one that's needed, and in the wrong places too...
_______
Oh oh. I tried to fix it only I should not have tried in the middle of rush hour here. This time it was perl } brackets that got me mired. Hope I didn't screw up too much. Sorry for the downtime everybody.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 12, 1996 at 16:25:33:
£ Kali- Lonely maybe, but never alone. All of us who read/post here have become a virtual family or "circle of friends" who are often in one another's thoughts, I believe, as much as those beloved JA characters. Not only do I check in here in the wee hours (California time) but also after work, and my family hears about Amy, Kali, Eric, Ian, et al. "snippets of info" as much as they hear letters from Aunt Lizzie (yes, we have one & she's very like Darcy's Lizzie).
So, chin up, my dear!
£ Must feed the cat who's been clawing my knee as a gentle hint while I keyboard this;
£ till later to you both,
£ "Cousin Cecily"
£
£ _______
_______
Aaawwww! That is so SWEET! I love you guys! I really do. And to think that I'd previously viewed the internet was a haven for pervs, recluses, and the media-obsessed. Since happenning upon this BB, my perception has changed entirely. Just think - if we were living during JA's time, we never would have met!
Cousin Cecily, thank you for your encouragement and support. I'm sure that we all appreciate it.
Later,
K
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 12, 1996 at 16:27:15:
See the posts above!
- K
Posted by Amy on November 12, 1996 at 16:39:12:
Shoot now what have I done?
Disabled quoting altogether? Must be a Freudian script.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on November 12, 1996 at 16:41:50:
Oh man. Sorry. Continu on as well as you can. I better take a break and start fresh later.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 12, 1996 at 16:44:29:
]
] you only have the title "Lady" when either you're married to a person of rank Knight or higher, or you're the daughter of a person of rank Earl or higher (there are actually different usages for different situations, but we won't go into all the subcases).
]
] Now, the heir to the title of Earl is Col. Fitzwilliam's older brother, and neither Miss (not Lady) Anne de Bourgh nor Darcy are at all likely to succeed.
]
] ] ] ] ] ] (Old Earl of ----, ] ] surnamed Fitzwilliam) ] ] | ] ] +------------+----+----------------+ ] ] | | | ] ] (Old Mr. === (Lady current Lady === (Sir Lewis ] ] Darcy) | Anne) Earl of ---- Catherine | de Bourgh) ] ] | | | ] ] +------+------+ +---+------+ | ] ] | | | | | ] ] Fitzwilliam Georgiana elder Colonel Anne de ] ] Darcy Darcy son(s) Fitzwilliam Bourgh ] ]
_______
Henry,
What if all of the male Fitzwilliamses died, heaven forbid, and their were no other heirs save Mr. Darcy? Would he get the title, then, and through him, Lizzy as well?
Formulating a plot,
Kali
Posted by Marsha on November 12, 1996 at 16:51:31:
]
£ &< -----------------------------------------
]
£ £ Darcy's mum was Lady Anne before she married. As Darcy is not titled, neither will Elizabeth be titled.
]
£ £ Your humble servant, etc.
]
£ £ kathleen
]
£
]
£ _______
]
£
]
£ Won't Lizzy now be Mrs Fitzwilliam Darcy?
]
]
_______
]
I think Lizzy can become "Lady Elizabeth";-)
]
Lady C with her character does seem like the type to have high blood pressure-a sudden feeling of anger toward the unfortunate Mr Collins, coupled with the knowelege that Darcy is about to have an heir, wold carry her Ladyship off quite nicely.
]
Of course, that leave Lady Anne (the new one), but with her weakly constitution, that's no problem, so, voila!-Lady Lizzy!
]
(Or maybe Mr C. helped Anne to the brink, to get in favour (as he thought) w/ Lizzy and Darcy-just bored her to death?)
]
Or, there might have been the plague?
]
Marsha
]
P.s. (JUST KIDDING ;-)
_______
Ooops! Sorry, my mistake! Thanks for pointing what's wrong with the scheme! And I so wanted Lizzy to be Lady E.
Marsha
Posted by Marsha on November 12, 1996 at 16:53:37:
£
£ £ I *can't* believe they haven't kissed in the intervening 8 (or so) weeks. It *was* allowed between an engaged couple (see HC's web page), and I think they both wanted it, although they were still a bit shy of each other immediately after the proposal.
£ £ I chose to believe the first kiss ccamu during the walk the next day. The wedding vows merely added more fire.
£ £ Anna
£
£ _______
£
£ Thank you, Anna. Mr. Darcy, as violently horny as we can all imagine he is, would certainly be man enough to extract a kiss from his equally-interested fiance.
£ - K
_______
I hope so, but I am by no means sure- Mrs Bennet will always be around complimenting him, and also Collinses and Lucases. The poor man won't have any time in private with Lizzy (Unless he takes one of these long walks)
Marsha
Follow Ups:
[ Index by Subject ] [ Index by Date ] [ New P&P2 BB ] [ FAQ ] [ Links ]
Return to Archives home