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Posted by Janet on November 11, 1996 at 21:38:13:
(Tried to snip)
£ £ £ And yes, going deeper becomes necessary (and fun!) as we begin to run out of stuff to talk about. Speaking of which, your Martha Stewart character sounds intriguing. How do you see her? As whom, doing what?
£ £ £ - K
£ £
£ £ ____
£ £ Dear Kali, thank you for your kind answer to the above. I must preface my response with notice of a previous post concerning your compassion for Miss B. In light of our mutual consideration for Miss B, perhaps we could portray Martha as a (much) more detail-oriented variation of her. Because of our ability to empathize (even with the likes of Miss B), we should not appear to be ruthless in our parody, as we know that JA was not so. As you said so well, she merely described her characters realistically without interjecting her own personal judgement. She left it for us to decide who to admire. At the same time, she left little doubt about how WE would feel about Darcy. Anyway, please don't judge me for being so ruthless or insulting as to define our character as being herself ruthless, contriving and vying for attention by expounding upon the infinite details so imperceptible to the common (read uncultivated) masses. I feel a trifle uneasy about doing this, as I have met her and she lives not far from me, so I hope I don't offend anyone. (I also hope this can't be pulled up through a net search or I'm in trouble, so I'll use "Miss M" as a code name.)
£ £ Our scene opens with the usual Bingley group at the card table at Netherfield, discussing the merits of accomplished women. Miss B has just described herself as one of Darcy's chosen few, as she has the advantage to "possess a certain something in her air and manner of walking, the tone of her voice, her address and expressions." Miss M, ever one to outdo (read overdo), stands over the ensemble and points out that an accomplished woman must also possess that knack for observing the finer things in life. She must be able to analyze and dissect these things in ultimate detail, and to push the envelope in pursuing their infinite possibilties. The extension of this is to then be able to maximize one's ability to profit from that appreciation, examination and dissection. By so doing, one will be able to educate the public at large and to convey to them the importance of this process, and impress upon them the meaningless and futility of a life lacking in this activity. It is not enough to merely live; one must go one or two or 10,000 steps further to recreate every part and parcel of one's life and all the objects and elements within it, and to impart a sense of one's own image onto everything. It is sort of a religious experience, you know, to recreate one's own image of life's finer things, to put one's stamp on them, to bring that stamp to the masses and then to take it to the bank.
£ £ To ensure that all in the party understand her meaning, our dear Miss M notes the presence of candles nearby. Never one to miss an opportunity to expound, she seizes this chance to employ them as an example of how one can truly fulfill oneself by (hopelessly, uselessly) REcreating (smaller) things in life. She proceeds to describe the art of creating one's own personal wax candles. (I saw her do something like this on the Today show once - it was hysterical!) One can make one's own wax which is infinitely superior to any other beeswax (God forbid) or those made from a (gasp!) mold. In this way one can form the wax into any shape one fancies, and thereby bestow upon the candle one's very own personal character to burn through the cold lonely wintry night. (There will doubtless be many such nights, spent all alone, because no one will want to have anything to do with someone possessing such an obsessive compulsive, bossy, know-it-all nature). You may impart your own scent to these candles, to allow your own personal aroma to filter through the room as they burn out other store-bought candles to shame and envy. One can also add one's own personal colorization and introduce custom metallic finishes. Those of you who (truly have nothing better to do) strive to create an elegant piece de resistance bespeaking one's higher station in life, may opt to encase each candle in an intricate pattern of layered gold leaf which (you guessed it!) you can make yourself. First you melt down all your jewelry and, quickly before it cools, flatten it evenly with a rolling pin and parchment paper to create a paper-thin foil, then emboss it with your own monogram or family crest engraved on a pinky ring (be careful not to toss it into the melting pot.)
£ £ This, too, you can make yourself, but that process is described more fully (it IS possible!) in the special holiday edition of my personal magazine, "(Get a) Life". For those of you devoted to expressing more discerning tastes, I have included in even greater detail a variety of (endless and painstaking) ideas for creating special homemade gift wraps of pressed paper (made from your own trees so as not to further endanger the rainforest) and foil (another use for your jewelry and pinky ring), ribbons and bows to decorate your own holiday gift candles - in my special gift publication of "Light Up Your Life" which is included in my ever-growing series of books appropriately entitled "You, Too, Can Do." The book is in itself the perfect gift to accompany your personalized candles, and in its giving you will have the pleasure to bestow the secrets of their creation and allow the credit (and proceeds) to rightfully go to me. I am convinced that anyone, even you, and everyone, all of you - are capable of becoming truly accomplished women, if only you have the patience and fortitude to pursue my way of doing things. My complete collection of books, monthly publications and special editions will help to guide you on your path to discovery which will lead you to crave more of my products and tools which are specifically designed to satisfy the most discerning obsessions and compulsions. These urges, by their very nature, will "throw you in the way" of more and more incessant cravings. (Happily for me) this is an addiction which only I can satisfy.
£ £ At this moment Lizzie and Darcy excused themselves to another room to discuss the perils of over-performing to strangers, to which even Darcy laughed with Lizzie over this fault. Louisa and Miss Bingley had already escaped the room, rolling their eyes and ROFLOL, critiquing Miss M's over-indulgence and compulsion to command attention as "a sort of self-sufficiency without fashion." Mr. Hurst awoke with a start and after his cursory "I agree! Damned tedious waste of an evening!" he realized that Miss M was still on a roll, so he dashed out of the room with a belch. Even the ever-polite Mr. Bingley finally tired of smiling and nodding and sat there with his face to the fireplace, stunned in disbelief at this callous self-display and pining for his selfless and unassuming Jane. Miss M was not aware that she had succeeded in boring everyone to death, but she felt the slightest twitch of embarassment for having rambled on without realizing that she had lost her audience, as if the camera had convened for a commercial. This was a new feeling which she had not experienced before, so she decided it worthy of exploration. After all, life is filled with adventures just waiting to be examined, and one must "not miss any opportunity to enjoy oneself."
£ £ I would trash this stupid thing if I hadn't wasted so much time on it. But there it is. I have truly succeeded in humiliating (myself).
£ £ : Janet
£ £ ___
£ Lord! Poor Miss M - she certainly makes Miss Bingley look like quite a catch.
£ Very clever. You were just waiting for the chance to pounce on Martha, were you not? Count me ROFLOL with everyone else, sans Bingley!
£ - K
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Sorry, I didn't realize that was sooo long. I had to go off line to do it and it didn't SEEM that long on a word processor. Did I detect another allusion in the reference to pouncing? Yes, it was catty, I know, but I couldn't stop myself.
: Your friend, Janet
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Posted by Lilian on November 11, 1996 at 21:48:02:
Darcy's mother was named Lady Anne when she married Mr Darcy Snr.
Would Lizzy become Lady Elizabeth because she married Darcy?
Imagine that... Lady Lizzy!!!
Lilian
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Posted by Janet on November 11, 1996 at 21:53:28:
£ £ (Snip)
£ £ £ : The double wedding also has people in attendance who wish to be anywhere else, most notably Miss Bingley who is most forlorn indeed, and Mr. Collins who looks as if he may be wondering if he will have a position when he returns to Hunsford!
£ £ (Snip)
£ £ £ : Cheryl
£ £ £ ___________________
£ £ £ I feel very sorry indeed for Miss Bingley. Without sounding too Janey, I must say that I can empathize with her situation. She tried so hard to ingratiate herself to Mr. Darcy, but he ignores her, and then marries someone else. True, she is a snob and rather harsh on others, but I'm sure she's not the worthless creature we'd all like to think she is.
£ £ £ She has been flatly rejected by a worthy man. How must that feel?
£ £ £ - K
£ £
£ £ ____
£ £ Concerning your compassion for Miss B, I can commisserate with your feelings and hers. Sometimes you can see how devastated she is that Darcy won't pay her the slightest notice despite her earnest efforts to capture his attention. On a few instances you can see through her veneer and feel her anguish. At Netherfield as she and Lizzie stride about to test (by Miss B's design) who captures Darcy's interest, Lizzie and Darcy discuss his faults and she looks positively crushed that Darcy opts for Lizzie's attention instead of (never) accepting hers. She immediately dashes to the piano to change the mood.
£ £ : Janet
£ £ ___
£
£ _______
£
£ Ouch, Janet. That is depressing indeed. I wonder how Miss Bingley ended up? I imagine she either died an old maid or went out golddigging elsewhere.
£ Kali
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Poor Miss B. She seems to be aware of so much but somehow fails to recognize her own transparency. I suppose all of us miss some of what we may convey to others inadvertently. The idea of projectionism and not being aware of your own faults. Lizzie and Darcy were guilty of this, as well as the Bennets - just about everyone. Perhaps Miss B was fortunate enough to bump into someone (accidentally, not by her own design) who could not see all her faults. It would be nice to think that she might find someone to appreciate her and bring out any otherwise hidden virtues she may have (unbeknownst to all). Otherwise I fear she would be caught up with someone who did not care about her but was looking for something else. What do you think?
: Janet
P.S. Yet another option is that she became a celebrity know-it-all who expounded on everyone and everything, thereby making her way in the world as an expert of some kind.
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Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 21:55:20:
£ I always considered Susannah to be thinner than Jennifer - at least that's how it appeared to *me*while watching the show.
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Aye. This talk of Harker heavier than Ehle puzzles me exceedingly, too.
Posted by Inko on November 11, 1996 at 21:55:38:
Ouch, Janet. That is depressing indeed. I wonder how Miss Bingley ended up? I imagine she either died an old maid or went out golddigging elsewhere.
£ Kali
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Kali, Read "Presumption" by Julia Barrett, which has Miss Bingley married to a Wickham type character. I find I can't work up too much sympathy for Miss B. - she's such a snobbish character who only considers the "high-born" as worthy of her notice, no matter whether that person had any redeeming qualities or not. I'm thinking particularly of Mr. Hurst whom I consider to be a boor of the first order, despite his being a "man of fashion."
Inko
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Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 21:59:54:
£ Ouch, Janet. That is depressing indeed. I wonder how Miss Bingley ended up? I imagine she either died an old maid or went out golddigging elsewhere.
£ £ Kali
£
£ _______
£
£ Kali, Read "Presumption" by Julia Barrett, which has Miss Bingley married to a Wickham type character. I find I can't work up too much sympathy for Miss B. - she's such a snobbish character who only considers the "high-born" as worthy of her notice, no matter whether that person had any redeeming qualities or not. I'm thinking particularly of Mr. Hurst whom I consider to be a boor of the first order, despite his being a "man of fashion."
£ Inko
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Inko, thanks for snipping. That's exactly how to do it, everyone.
Posted by Kristi on November 11, 1996 at 22:10:59:
I'm an undergraduate English major at Northwestern (go cats!). I am writing an honors thesis on dramatizations of Austen's novels with an emphasis on how the feminist message of her orignal work (and I believe there is one) has been either distorted or supported by these adaptations. I'm still trying to get through the commentary here to generate new questions, so bear with me!
Does anyone have suggestions on other sites that might provide info on dramatizations of Emma and Sense and Sensibility?
Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!
Kristi
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Posted by Anne on November 11, 1996 at 22:12:50:
£ Oh my. What have you got yourself into Anne? Maybe we should forget about the table for now and since there is such a lot of data, get it into some common DB format just for now. Then we can do anything with it.
_______
Actually it's not too bad -- the hardest part is getting it from a file on my disk to the 'comments' here. Once I got the table built, it is easy to add someone via cut and paste. I got the original list by putting everyone in a data base (Lotus Approach) and creating a worksheet.
Anne
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Posted by Rachel on November 11, 1996 at 22:20:45:
Though the swim did not happen in the novel, it was quite a clever device for creating a metaphor for Darcy's change of personality - his rebirth as the tolerant, loving, broad-minded and philanthropic dude who could finally be accepted by the woman of his choice. He dives in a tormented soul, and emerges from the amniotic waters a new man. Who agrees? And who would like to add even more raptures on Colin Firth in wet clothes?
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Posted by Rachel on November 11, 1996 at 22:20:50:
Though the swim did not happen in the novel, it was quite a clever device for creating a metaphor for Darcy's change of personality - his rebirth as the tolerant, loving, broad-minded and philanthropic dude who could finally be accepted by the woman of his choice. He dives in a tormented soul, and emerges from the amniotic waters a new man. Who agrees? And who would like to add even more raptures on Colin Firth in wet clothes?
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Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 22:23:04:
I got the original list by putting everyone in a data base (Lotus Approach) and creating a worksheet.
£ Anne
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I didn't think anybody else used Approach. I sometimes use an old version before it was sold to Lotus. Got used to it after reviewing it several years ago.
Send me the final file in dBase IV format -- would you? What kind of software development do you do anyway? Know anything about hooking up databases to the web? Tell me off list about that, though some of the other geeks here might want to hear about your work.
Amy
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Posted by Anne on November 11, 1996 at 22:28:46:
£
£ £ £ £
| Linda | USA - New York | 52 |
Posted by Anne on November 11, 1996 at 22:41:52:
£ I didn't think anybody else used Approach. I sometimes use an old version before it was sold to Lotus. Got used to it after reviewing it several years ago.
£ Send me the final file in dBase IV format -- would you? What kind of software development do you do anyway? Know anything about hooking up databases to the web? Tell me off list about that, though some of the other geeks here might want to hear about your work.
£ Amy
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I started using Approach as it was already loaded onto my PC. And I didn't want to pay the money for Office.
I am a mainframe person -- just learning Windows 95 (after just getting familiar with 3.1) and have only been on the net a couple of months.
Anne
Posted by kathleen on November 11, 1996 at 22:49:50:
£ Darcy's mother was named Lady Anne when she married Mr Darcy Snr.
£ Would Lizzy become Lady Elizabeth because she married Darcy?
£ Imagine that... Lady Lizzy!!!
£
£ Lilian
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Darcy's mum was Lady Anne before she married. As Darcy is not titled, neither will Elizabeth be titled.
Your humble servant, etc.
kathleen
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Posted by Anne on November 11, 1996 at 22:52:24:
don't feel a particular need to get hitched (plus, it's a lot more fun to set up my friends!).
£ : K
£
£ _______
£ Easy for you, at age 21, to say!
£ Ann
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I, too, feel no particular need to be married. I have been married and realized that I will wait until I find the person who is 'right' for me. My parents had a good and happy marriage and my father's second marriage is the same so I know that it is possible. I would rather be alone than in a bad relationship.
Anne (at 45)
Posted by Kate on November 11, 1996 at 22:55:12:
£ £ I tend to agree too. Too fancy by half. I'll change it back or change to something else next time I do some remodeling to the script. Maybe a series of |||s . Call them wizard's pipes?
£ £ Amy
£ _______
£
£ What about,can you do Quote and Reply just a thought.
£ Q: Can't we just add it ourselves. Would that be easier.
£ I don't have the pound sign &&&& Donna
£ R:
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I don't have any objection to the pound sign, or any other symbol, but half the time it is showing up as "£" rather than the symbol. Once you get a few replies it becomes very messy. Hope this can be fixed.
Kate
Posted by Janet on November 11, 1996 at 22:59:37:
(Snip-I hope this is enough snipped, Amy)
£ £ Not nececssarily - when my mother got as old as she decided that she wanted to be, she started counting backwards on her birthdays and for many years she has now been younger than all of her children. [grin]
£ £ Joan, too
£ _______
£ Good trick -- but what I did was that on my 40th birthday, I purchased myself NOT a mini-van but a mustang convertable. It is truly magic because when I get in it, I am 20 years younger and 20 pounds lighter!
£ - Candace
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That sounds like a great idea, Candace. I had a red MGB convertible 15 years ago. (Being an MGB it was always in need of extensive repairs. I remember holding onto the steering wheel for dear life whenever the seat came loose from its track.) I think I'm ready for another one now, but a better model.
Joan, I like your mother's trick. In a recent letter from my mother to my children, after she described various interesting events and observations, she ended with, "Believe it or not, I am still learning something new every day. It never ends." She is 77 going on young! All the best,
: Janet
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Posted by Arnessa on November 11, 1996 at 23:09:49:
On Austen-L, we had this debate on whether or not JA is a moralist, and I was forced to realize that I am in the minority in thinking that she is not.
I thank you for your efforts to make me see the light. However, it's a point on which I am quite unpersuadable.
A moralist to me is someone whose primary goal is to teach others how to behave. Some authors whom I see as moralists are Samuel Johnson and Ayn Rand. To me, dispensing her beliefs on how people should behave is not the primary reason JA wrote. (Well, for the most part. I would have trouble, indeed, in arguing that there is not a slight moralizing tone in Mansfield Park.)
I also happen to be a semi-regular reader of the Miss Manners column. Miss Manners often reminds us that though we may recognize bad etiquette in others, it is a breach of etiquette to point it out to them (unless we happen to be their mother or other close relation.) Similarly, JA obviously recognizes and comments on moral weaknesses of some of her characters, but she hardly ever punishes.
Good conduct is its own reward in JA's fiction. It's not like a Cinderella story, where Lizzy gets the prince because Lizzy is all beauty and virtue and patience. Lizzy gets the #10,000 because Darcy falls in love with her. Period. Jane certainly might be more "good" than Lizzy, but Darcy falls in love with Lizzy.
So it's very hard for me to see what moral system JA is espousing, if she is a moralist. Is it one where wit reigns supreme? Then Mr. Bennet should have been rewarded with a more sensible wife, no? Is it one where individualism is paramount? Then Lydia should have had a happier fate. No, the only thing I can see JA saying is that she likes Lizzy, and other heroines, despite their imperfections. So if she is a moralist, she is telling us we all should try to be like Lizzy - witty and hot-headed and loyal and stubborn and prejudiced and proud... Well, I might be able to subscribe to all that, but it would make for a very confusing 10 commandments.
-Arnessa (sorry to rattle away so much).
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Posted by Janet on November 11, 1996 at 23:13:07:
(snip)
"and don't forget the particulars such as respective height and size, for were Darcy not such a tall fellow, I would not listen to him so much" (Or something to that effect) So to be tall was to be respect-inspiring, and also imposing and important-looking (I can just imagine Lady C. raising herself to her full height at that, and Miss Bingley preening herself;-))
£ Marsha
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I have heard the theory that subconsciously, people perceive taller as better when it comes to men, and that supposedly taller men are granted positions of more authority and respect. However, a friend of mine recently pointed out that most of the truly RICH men of the world are in fact rather short. A word to the wise perhaps for Miss B in her search for an appropriate mate? Can you see her with a short, slightly pudgy fellow after failing to secure Darcy?
: Janet
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Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 23:14:06:
£ Though the swim did not happen in the novel, it was quite a clever device for creating a metaphor for Darcy's change of personality - his rebirth as the tolerant, loving, broad-minded and philanthropic dude who could finally be accepted by the woman of his choice. He dives in a tormented soul, and emerges from the amniotic waters a new man. Who agrees? And who would like to add even more raptures on Colin Firth in wet clothes?
_______
More than the warmth of rebirth, though, I see it as a chilling or solidification of resolve. Heck - the water must be cold, its briskness spurring him into proper action. He finally gets the balls up to be civil, courteous, and honest with Elizabeth, having washed off and out of his system the insecurities and embarassments he's had regarding Elizabeth. He is indeed a new man, realizing the perilousness of his situation - he learns that he just can't let himself lose her forever!
- K
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