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Posted by Inko on November 11, 1996 at 18:56:57:
£ I disagree slightly. I think JA prefers to let the lives of her characters demonstrate the truth of her moral convictions - and the lives of her characters are so true to the lives we all live, that this is effective and sufficient. This is in contrast to those who spout moral platitudes devoid of context, from a position of one who has never had to make painful moral choices themselves. Jane and Elizabeth at their best stand for truth, nobility of character, integrity, compassion, honesty and all virtue - but they stand for it by living it. And they live it as people who recognize their own failures. Mary and Mr. Collins seek also to stand for these virtues, but from a position of presumed superiority and by preaching it odiously rather than living. As the prophet says, God does not want sacrifices and feasts and attention to silly laws, what God wants is to love justice, to seek righteousness, and to walk humbly with our God.
£ Eric
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Eric, I agree with both your irony and moralist postings. Irony (or mild sarcasm) can be very useful when you don't want to hurt the one you're talking to while still maintaining your own judgment. I keep thinking of Lizzie's answer to Mr. Collins while they're walking to Rosings on her last visit there - "I don't know how I shall bear not visiting Rosings" or something like that and Mr. Collins takes her literally. I always giggle when it comes to that scene.
I don't think JA intended Mary as a moralist but as an attack on "blue stockings" - that is, people who only get their ideas from books and do nothing with their lives but have their noses buried in their heavy, judgmental tomes.
Inko
Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 18:59:32:
Yeeps, Hilary. Creepy. Look at these messages just over 2 minutes apart:
Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 18:29:07:
In Reply to: Re: Tall Folk posted by Marsha on November 11, 1996 at 18:10:45:
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Firth is not much if any taller than Bonham-Carter. Did the director do something to make us think he is taller -- is is it just Firth's presence?
Posted by Hilary on November 11, 1996 at 18:32:51:
In Reply to: Re: Tall Folk posted by Marsha on November 11, 1996 at 18:10:45:
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something to that effect) So to be tall was to be respect-inspiring, and also imposing and important-looking (I can just imagine Lady C. raising herself to her full height at that, and Miss Bingley preening herself;-))
£ Marsha
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I agree. But its interesting that in the film Darcy is not in fact much taller than Bingly, if you look at them in scenes like the wedding when they are standing together.Hilary
Posted by Sylvia on November 11, 1996 at 19:06:27:
And, yes, I would love to see more of JA scenes after the proposal, as when she teases him why he fell in love with her, and also before, at a party, when she wants him to come and talk to her, but they are separated all the evening, and at last, as she is about to see her wish accoplished, a girl, who says soemthing like'we shan't let the men separate us' interferes!"
Marsha
I think that all those scenes are in P&P1. Unfortunately, you probably won't get so much pleasure from them since you've seen P&P2. I loved P&P1 for the 10 years before P&P2 was produced. While the latter far outshines it in almost every respect, I still enjoy and find merit in P&P1.
Linda
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I agree with Linda. I just borrowed the tape PP1 and for the 2nd time I watched it, I enjoy it more. There were some parts that were missing in PP2 that were played at PP1. I like the part at Netherfield where Darcy asked Lizzy to dance the reel and was rejected. And other scenes that I can remember. Maybe I should watched it again.
Sylvia
Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 19:07:39:
Oh my. What have you got yourself into Anne? Maybe we should forget about the table for now and since there is such a lot of data, get it into some common DB format just for now. Then we can do anything with it.
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Posted by Candace on November 11, 1996 at 19:08:43:
£ Does anyone agree with me that Susannah Harker (Jane) was just a bit to homely for her role. I actually thought Jennifer was the more attractive of the two. Or would Susannah be beautiful in a classic, 18th century fashion? I also think that Bingley could have been more attractive.
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Maybe by present day standards, Susannah Harker is not considered prettier than Jennifer Ehle, but if you examine the art from the 19th century you will see that she is indeed what was considered classic beauty at the time. That is one of the reasons why I love this particular production so much. It looks real and will never appear to be out of date as say any of the period pieces done during the 1940's such as the first P&P.
- Candace
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Posted by Donna on November 11, 1996 at 19:19:37:
£ £ a generally shorter than they are now by several inches? So that a man who was taller than most others would stand out from the crowd, would make a more imposing figure?
£ £ £ Cheryl
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£ £ Imposing is right! Bingley tells to Lizzy (in the book) when they are having that discussion about his being able to be persuaded by a friend, and Darcy and Lizzy decide that it is better to wait till the circumstances are known, something like (not exact quote) "and don't forget the particulars such as respective height and size, for were Darcy not such a tall fellow, I would not listen to him so much" (Or something to that effect) So to be tall was to be respect-inspiring, and also imposing and important-looking (I can just imagine Lady C. raising herself to her full height at that, and Miss Bingley preening herself;-))
£ £ Marsha
£
£ _______
£ I agree. But its interesting that in the film Darcy is not in fact much taller than Bingly, if you look at them in scenes like the wedding when they are standing together.
£ Hilary
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I agree but when he and Bingley {after Lizzie and the G. leave}walk back into the room at Pemberly he looks so much taller and broader in his shoulder then Bingley.I think because he enter the room first. BTW I love the way he walks in this scene. He takes those long, gliding steps and his arms are swinging. I am sure he is a loud walker on wood floors. You would know when he was about.
Donna
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Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 19:19:59:
£
£ £ PS - Okay, now I'm Emma AND Scarlett.
£ £
£ £ _______
£ £ What an explosive combination!!!
£ £ (But Scarlett would definitely disagree with matchmaking for anybody but herself!)
£ £ Marsha
£ _______
£ Talk about it! She'd snatch everyone's beaux for herself. Hey, wouldn't it be sort of interesting to have a confrontation between Lizzie and Scarlett? They both strike me as being strong characters, although one lives happily with her man, and the other loses him at the end.
£ Tay
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Perhaps strength is the only asset they have in common. The big difference is that Scarlett and Rhett aren't respectable - they're selfish, mercenary, and scarred. Darcy and Lizzy have led relatively safe lives, and are relatively safe, moral people. Both characters fit their mates. Interestingly enough, I can see Lizzy and Rhett very happy together, but not Darcy and Scarlett. Lizzy could bring out the best in Rhett (Scarlett often brings out the worst). But Lord, the Scarlett experience would drive Darcy straight into the arms of Miss Bingley!
As far as a confrontation, sheesh! Count on Lizzy to be civil, Scarlett to be catty. I wonder how such very different people would be in close enough proximity to claw eachother.
- K
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Posted by Paula on November 11, 1996 at 19:29:20:
I can't tell you how much I loved P&P! The BBC adaption was the most brillant series ever to be shown on television. I am only 22, I meet many Mr.Darcys and Mr.Bingley. The problem is that although I am attracted to Mr.Darcy's, I should be with Mr.Bingley's. What Elizabeth feels is the same feelings I feel in 1996.
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I couldn't agree more about the quality of P&P2--and it is so relevant to today.
Jane A's message to us still stands -- first impressions can be very misleading, we must look at a person's character to see what they are really like. And unfortunately in our fast-paced society, we do tend to judge people very quickly and by superficial things such as looks.
Another message is: Judge people by their deeds, not their manner. Wickham is cute and a smooth talker so everybody likes him, but in the end we think ill of him because of his bad deeds. Darcy is the opposite: an unfriendly manner, but he does great deeds.
I had relationships with brooding, moody types for many years before I met Mr. Right, who turned out to be a Bingley! But fortunately both Bingley and Darcy are good men, so you're in good hands either way -- I wish you well!
--Paula
Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 19:38:00:
£ he may turn out to be a Bingley - but to you he will seem a Darcy.
£ £ ;-) Anne
£
£ _______
£ Hey-Mr Bingley *would* make a nicer husband ;) He would be ideal, in fact! ;-) He would never grumble or complain if the dinner is not on time, and won't object to go shopping (not that Darcy would, but life would be so *placid* with Bingley-he would be pleasant all the time, and never argue, or have arguments.
£ ;-)
£ (Just kidding-I too am looking for Darcy)
£ Marsha
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I do like BIngleys - very much. My father is very much a Bingley. With a little bit of Lady C thrown in for good measure, when he explodes. My brother is a Mr. Bennet. And as I said before, all my love interests have been Ashleys (BAD!!!). I am rather Emma, with a bit of Lizzy and Scarlett thrown in.
I've always thought it very helpful to differentiate people as Rens and Stimpies. That would make my brother a Ren (big time), my dad a closet-Ren with a Stimpy exterior. I am a Ren with a bit of Stimpy to temper the stress.
- K
PS - FYI, Ren is a somewhat nervous, rather anal Chihuahua and Stimpy is a big, blue cat with a pleasant disposition.
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Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 19:41:05:
>>>most happy partnership. He is an engineer for one of the car companies (What else? We're in Detroit, after all.)
________________
I must ask you to review a character in my novel who is a car engineer in Detroit.
Anybody else writing a novel?
>>> He is very quiet, reserved.
£ I think it best that we not let him know the kinds of dialogue his wife sometimes gets into here; he would not be proud.
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I am glad you know how to live with each other. I am pretty much over my bitter period from a 14-year marriage that ended two years ago but I still have some venom to spew. I would not want to pollute this nice environment iwth it. Short version is I could not tolerate my ex being ashamed of my behavior when I was having the time of my life and entirely into something that moved me and I cared about and I related to and connected with.
Amy
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Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on November 11, 1996 at 19:43:04:
£ £ Did anyone else read this JA said that Lydia was the tallest then she went on to say that she was stout. I didn't think you could be tall and stout at the same time unless they were all short and Lydia being the tallest of them all.
£ £ Donna
£________________
£ Chapter 2
£ "Oh!" said Lydia stoutly, "I am not afraid; for though I am the youngest, I'm the tallest."
£ Chapter 9
£ Lydia was a stout, well-grown girl of fifteen, with a fine complexion and good-humoured countenance; a favourite with her mother, whose affection had brought her into public at an early age. ...
Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 19:45:21:
£ SCENE: Hunting Party at Netherfield
£ Roger: What are those men doing?
£ Father: Hunting.
£ Roger: Are they shooting peasants?
£ After I got done laughing, I explained that shooting peasants went out of style (except in Russia, China and a few other places) about fifty years before the events of this movie. Pheasant, however, are still shot.
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Watch out. The tongue-twister about the Pheasant-plucker could be next...and THAT didn't go out of style until very recently...
Friend to some very worldly youngsters,
- K
Posted by Candace on November 11, 1996 at 19:54:07:
£ ood life?
£ £ Shouldn't we all (in theory), like Lizzy, marry only from love?
£ £ I can't see myself ever married to anyone else except a Mr Darcy. I don't want to think about any other possibilities (I will just feel more depressed...)
£ £ Adi
£ £
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£ Adi -
£ I think what Candace is saying is -- become your own person first. Like yourself. Develop your own interests. If you notice, Lizzy was not looking for Darcy, he just happened into her life. Finding someone with the same likes, goals, etc. is the most important point and he may turn out to be a Bingley - but to you he will seem a Darcy.
£ ;-) Anne
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Thank you Anne -- you got my drift exactly. To be more explicit, I was responding to Rebecca's statement that she was attracted to Mr. Darcy's but knew that Mr. Bingley's were better for her. I too was very attracted to Mr. Darcy's (tall, dark, serious,etc.) and thought that I could change them with my "Livliness". The relationships always started off very passionate and always ended disastrously! It wasn't until I stopped looking, when Louie came into my life. He likes everyone and everyone likes him (Mr. Bingley?) I did not fall immediately in love with him, but I liked to be with him and considered him a good friend. In fact we became wonderful friends first. I felt extremely comfortable with him and wanted to be with him all the time. Then the light bulb went on! This was love. Love was not that passion that came and went, it is this wonderful easy, peaceful, comfortable, feeling with passion thrown in. So I guess, he changed me with his livliness!
- Candace
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Posted by Joan, too on November 11, 1996 at 20:00:27:
£ JA says in the book that he was considered handsome by Meriton, before his pride disgusted every one.
£ Marsha
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But JA also observed (via Lizzie) that one of the reasons that he was initially thought handsome was his 10,000 pounds per annum, and that he might not be thought so handsome if he were not so rich.
Joan, too
Posted by Candace on November 11, 1996 at 20:01:22:
£ £ I will preface this comment with a disclaimer that I do not ride and therefore may be way off base.
£ £ However, when Wickham is riding around and the sisters are talking, Lydia is commenting on the fact that 'her husband' is such a fine horseman and that Col. Foster said that he had as good a seat as anyone in the regiment. About that time Wickham rides by the girls -- does he look like a fine horseman to those of you in the know? He is leaning back and 'rolling' along which looks wrong to me - but I could be mistaken.
£ £ Anne
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£ I know nothing about riding either, but I fully expected Wickham to fall off at that point (just because of the conversation), and was quite disappointed that he didn't.
£ Hilary
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Please allow him to break his head!
- Candace
Posted by Candace on November 11, 1996 at 20:05:55:
£ £ £ I've got a younger sister who's only four, but even she tells me, "I like Mr. Darcy!" You should hear the way she pronounces his name, it's so adorable!
£ £ £ Tay
£ £ _______
£ £ And Amy thought maybe there were not enough younger folk enjoying P&P2...
£ £ My eight year old daughter likes to play Mrs. Bennet to my six year old's Mr. Bennet. We were riding along in the car today when out of the blue, my six year old son says "And I will never see you again if you do." Right away "OH MR. BENNET!"
£ £ Eric
£ £
£ £ _______
£ £ Oh my. Have we become a cult, indoctrinating our young?
£ £ Cheryl
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£ Might as well. Indoctrinating the old geezers is next to impossible. We do not, however, serve kool-aid as part of the ceremony - might spill on the carpet.
£ Eric
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Eric - you are indeed a pleasure!
- Candace
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Posted by Candace on November 11, 1996 at 20:12:30:
£ I can't image wanting to be married at 15. That was the last thing on my mind at 15.
£ £ What were we all thinking of at age 15.
£ £ Donna
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£ What is a scary thought is that Lydia will probably start having children right away. Just imagine the mother she will be. I think that Mrs. B will look like the spokesperson for Parenting magazine compared to Lydia.
£ Anne
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Not necessarily -- I have a friend who in her youth was just as wild as Lydia (if not more so). Her children are the ideal angels. This is due to the fact that my friend has continually told them "Don't ever try any sh_ _ with me! I will always know what you did because I'm the one who invented it!"
- Candace
Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on November 11, 1996 at 20:13:30:
£ 
HC, I love this picture. Emma is seen not meeting his eyes, just as Lizzy cannot in the second proposal. Are you thinking of HTMLizing Emma for your page as you have for P&P? Who is the illustrator? What edition?
£ Amy
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These are from C.E. Brock also, for the novels other than Pride and Prejdice, on the web-page linked to below.
This is the only illustration I scanned in for Emma though (none of the other ones were very good -- none of them showed Emma Woodhouse, or any central scenes of the novel).
Link:
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Posted by Janet on November 11, 1996 at 20:14:47:
£ £ £ Janet!
£ £ £ What's this about your child and Regis & Kathi Lee? When? Why? Do tell...
£ £ £ Kali ;-)
£ £
£ £ ____
£ £ Hi, Kali! I've missed you. There have been so many posts that I haven't been able to keep up, and the other day all the posts were wiped out prior to that day.
£ £ There was a thread about (middle) age in which I mentioned that my 3 year old daughter Christina is good friends, in class at school and ballet, with Kathie Lee's daughter. Last Tuesday the camera crew from her show filmed their little ballet class and will show it one day this week. Kathie Lee will let me know which day, and I will try to let you know in advance if you want to tune in. Her show is called "Live! With Regis & Kathie Lee" on ABC (Channel 7 here), from 9:00 to 10:00 am EST. I hardly ever watch it, so I will have to make an effort myself. Apparently she's been talking about it for months, as well as the girls' school, etc.
£ £ As I mentioned before in a post which erroneously appeared under Mysterious H.C.'s name (in a thread about Anthrax, to boot), even Regis will appear ala pink tutu - although not the Regis you may expect. It really is sweet to see these little girls in their tutus on toes and tap. I can understand why Kathie wants to show it, even though some may say its child exploitation. I'm a bit embarassed to be mentioning it at all, as it is rather shameless to 'broadcast' your child. But...I can't keep my mouth shut for long.
£ £ Hope you can catch it. Glad to see you back.
£ £ : Janet
£ £ ___
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£ Janet,
£ Sounds like fun, actually - I'll tune in if I can.
£ Your PST friend,
£ Kali
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Kali, Donna etal: Tune in tomorrow morning Tuesday to Live! With Regis and Kathie Lee on ABC (Channel 7 east coast) at 9:00am EST. Precious 3 year old girls in pink tutus, pony tails, toes, tap!
: Janet (Shameless)
P.S. More Shamelessness: My Christina has brown hair in a pony tail with a pink bow, dressed in all pink and a pink skirt with silver glitter. Her tights were a little large so I suggested that she pull them up. Instead she insisted on pulling them DOWN to create the slouch look in tights with wrinkled ankles. Cute. Who knows, she may not even be visible.
___
Posted by Joan, too on November 11, 1996 at 20:19:23:
Did anyone else read this JA said that Lydia was the tallest then she went on to say that she was stout. I didn't think you could be tall and stout at the same time unless they were all short and Lydia being the tallest of them all.£ Donna
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JA said "Lydia was a stout, well-grown girl of fifteen, with a fine complexion and good-humoured countenance" - I believe that in this instance "stout" was intended to mean "sturdy" rather than "heavy".
Joan, too
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