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Posted by Alicia on November 11, 1996 at 16:41:52:
£ Don't the FOFers feature some stabs at what the wedding night might have been like?
£ - K %^}
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Yes, they do -- and they are the most creative stories!! I have enjoyed reading them. Go to the link below to go to the FoF writings site.
Link:
Posted by Karen on November 11, 1996 at 16:45:34:
£ £ During the show someone (usually the heroine always has the comment "I know not how to act." At which time the audience replies "You can say that again." Everytime I watch the scene with E and Lady C and they get to the line "Very well, I shall know how to act." my mind goes into audience mode and I think "Evidently not ."
£ £ Anne
£
£ _______
£
£ I have always loved this scene, not only because of the way Lady C and Lizzie both behave but because it also shows Lizzie's quickness. She doesn't lie when Lady C asks if her nephew had made her an offer and she says "Your Ladyship has declared it to be impossible." That's why I was so annoyed with P&P0 when they changed the entire meaning of Lady C's visit.
£ Inko
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I agree with you Inko. I could not like P&P0 because of that change but that was one of so many. I never thought of myself as a stickler but they should have called it something other that P&P since they changed it soooo much.
Karen
Posted by Anna on November 11, 1996 at 16:48:12:
This R&V is the first time I've paid attention to the episode break-up of P&P2 - I missed most of the televising, and moved straight into the video, which was sold here only as two 2 1/2 hour tapes. I arrived near the end of R&V4, so I've not looked at the first half in this way, but I think the episode break-up may explain an apparent error in the timing of scenes at the 5/6 junction.
About the 3rd time I watched P&P2, I noticed an oddity in the scenes covering the receipt of Mr Gardiner's letter re Lydia and Wickham's marriage. It seemed to me unlikely that Mrs Bennet would not be told until the next day, and in her discussion with Mr B in his library, Lizzy refers to what they thought 'only a few hours ago", yet we've had a bed-time scene between Lizzy and Jane between the letter and the 2 latter scenes. At a later viewing, I noticed that Jane and Lizzy are both wearing the same dresses for what appears to be 2 days in a row.
Now I realise that the bed-room scene was at the end of an episode, I wonder if it was originally intended (script and filming) to have the letter, the scene with Mrs B and the library scene between Mr B and Lizzy followed by the bed-room scene, and it was decided to switch them because it works better for the episode break-up this way?
Any opinions?
Anna
Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 16:50:51:
I do like to think that Mr. Gardiner will offer his place to Lizzy,
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I, too, got the distinct feeling she was heading in that direction. Whether it would have been polite or ladylike, I don't know.
With all the problems we have discussed with screen direction and the room arrangements, it's hard to understand why the impression is so strong. The only thing I can think of is that she seems to be aimed in the exact direction of her gaze at Darcy -- almost that a psychic silver cord has spanned the distance between them in the room and she is following it.
(BTW Ann2 what has become of your drawing?
Ann did a sketch of a room in Netherfield or Pemberley and had it scanned but is having trouble getting it on the web. Ann: you said you put it in a word document, but what graphic format is the image itself in? Or could you just send me the word file and I'll see what I can do with it? Or tell us all the particulars and maybe someone here who knows more about scanning (anything about scanning; I have no knowledge of it) can help us figure out how to get it. I am dying to see it.)
Amy
Posted by Cheryl on November 11, 1996 at 16:51:13:
£ Once a version of Lady C.but later changed.
£ Donna
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I like the way Lizzy's opinion on Darcy's very appearance changes with Darcy's change. When Lizzy meets Lady C. she thinks ill of him and can see a definate resemblance in their physical appearance. After Darcy's reformation and Lady C. comes to Longbourn to vent her spleen, Lizzy wonders at how she could ever have seen a resemblance between the two.
So is the moral that Love Is Blind, Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beholder or maybe Handsome Is As Handsome Does?
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 16:55:14:
It's sort of scary to see one's own life slowly turning just like how you read in books, isn't it?
£ Tay
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Sometimes it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Speaking of which, I've done my share of clothesmaking for Ashley Wilkses, which has not served me well at all (In GWTW - the book - Scarlett realizes that her love for Ashley was something she'd tailored herself - she made up a suit of very pretty clothes which she though the perfect man should wear, and force-fit Ashley into them).
- K
PS - Okay, now I'm Emma AND Scarlett.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Saman on November 11, 1996 at 16:55:21:
£ £ An early Happy Birthday to you.
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Thank you very much for the lovely birthday wishes - I can't think of a nicer group of people to share a "virtual birthday" with!
Happy Birthday Rebecca!
Saman (37 hours till I'm no longer a teenager!!)
Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 16:56:41:
£ So is the moral that Love Is Blind, Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beholder or maybe Handsome Is As Handsome Does?
£ Cheryl
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Maybe. One of them. P&P is stuffed with them. Layer upon layer. Some only seen at certain ages in the reader's life, some only apparent during or after a life circumstance that opens the door for seeing the lesson.
Amy
Posted by Inko on November 11, 1996 at 16:57:24:
Is this just my server, or are there £ signs everywhere?
£ £ Marsha
£
£ _______
£ Its just Amy giving away virtual money.
£ Hilary
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Or is Amy trying to lose weight and giving it to us? If so, thanks, but I've got enough of my own!
Inko
Follow Ups:
Posted by Cheryl on November 11, 1996 at 16:58:04:
Such gloats are short-lived, I'm afraid, and I thought I might enjoy it while possible for soon some 20-yr-old will come 'round to give it back to me. My son already comments on my fading hair. My daughter teases me that I cannot bend quite as I used to. It will only get worse. :-(
Eric
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Payback, comeuppance, divine retribution, call it what you will, is such a wonderfully satisfying occurance. Enjoy.
Cheryl
Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 16:59:18:
£ When I showed a tape of the film in class, many students (who had presumably already read the book and some had seen the Garvie/Rintoul version) finally saw the light. In a sense, Ehle and Firth salvaged at least some students who might never have read another Jane Austen. After seeing the possibilities presented by the film, they were at least open to the notion that they might read another. Those (sadly, few) students who had loved the book as they read it, adored the film.___________________That's beautiful. I know my HS classmates were dead from the a-- down both ways when it came to P&P, which really teed me off.- K
£
£ ___________________
£ I can relate to those classmates who weren't bothered about reading JA. Can you believe that I actually hated P&P when I had to read it as part of my "O"-level syllabus. I was 15 at the time. I went back to it whilst I was doing my PhD and really loved it. It is now my favourite novel. I think that I disliked having to read P&P the first time round because it was forced upon me -- teenage rebellion maybe!
£ Bernie
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Probably. And what a perfect book to rediscover and fall in love with, after hating it so much in the beginning - PRIDE and PREJUDICE! For guys, though, I think it's a macho thing.
- K
Posted by Amy on November 11, 1996 at 17:03:54:
£ Is this just my server, or are there £ signs everywhere?
£ £ £ Marsha
£ £ _______
£ £ Its just Amy giving away virtual money.
£ £ Hilary
£ _______
£ Or is Amy trying to lose weight and giving it to us? If so, thanks, but I've got enough of my own!
£ Inko
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I am just trying it. Colons don't seem to show up very well. I sometimes have trouble distinguishing quoted material from the response. The _______ helps, I think. The symbol? I don't know. Does it show up on everybody's browser as a pound sterling sign? I can change it. HC likes the : better or suggested a |. Ever think of HC as a wizard?
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Marsha on November 11, 1996 at 17:05:12:
£ £ Does anyone know how I could link to the wonderful pictures, which were from some site, that were on this page some time ago-pics of Lizzy, Darcy, Jane etc
£ £ Thanks
£ £ Marsha
£
£ _______
£ Try link below.
£ Cheryl
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THANKS A LOT
marsha
Posted by Dina on November 11, 1996 at 17:08:08:
I am 35.
Posted by Karen on November 11, 1996 at 17:08:11:
£ My age is 20.
£ Cordially,
£ Raphael
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Hi! My name is Karen. I'm from New York (while I'm in grad school) and I'm 30. Thanks.
Karen
Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 17:13:53:
£ £ £ : : : : : : : Is this meant to allow that although one does not benefit from an ideal upbringing, one can grow up to overcome despite the constraints of society? This may have been a rather revolutionary concept in a society in which wealthy and powerful families were expected (and hoped) to rule all forever and ever. Indeed, there was a fall-out in P&P. Any thoughts or am I just expounding/reaching?: : : It is indeed interesting to speculate to what degree JA made this, her favorite character, the proponent of her own particular position in these matters. I, myself, would like to believe this to be the case.: : : Joan, too: : : : ___________________: : : : It seems that Jane Austen is very sympathetic re: human constraint. But how revolutionary is she? This is a question I've seen discussed elsewhere, and now you guys have me thinking about it again (I know this isn't quite what you guys were dealing with, but it relates so I'll go with it!). I believe that the merit of a novel rests on its ability to illuminate the universiality of the human condition, which Austen, and so many authors before and after her, have done well. I don't think her ideas re: understanding between humans and self-realization were so much revolutionary as progressive, and certainly they weren't new to literature or theory. She is very comfortable writing from within the normalcy of polite society, and her themes deal more with the complexity and irony of life in the community of man than with societal reengineering. To Austen, it seems that life in society can be ironic, frustrating, amusing, unfair, and wonderful, for both men and women of many walks of life. : : Her message, in my eyes, at least, is that human beings should do their best to understand others while trying to make for themselves the best existence possible. Austen seems to understand that life can be crappy no matter who you are, especially if you are intelligent: Parents can be dorks (The Bennets, Lady Catherine, Sir William L., etc.); So can the men who are interested in you (Mr. Collins, Wickham), and especially your boyfriend (Mr. Darcy); Some people can be real morons (Mrs. Bennet, etc.); Etc. These and other situations can be explored through the eyes of many of the characters, and not just the smart ones or the "favorites" (Darcy, Lizzy).: : The fact that P&P ends happily, with the main characters enlightened and generally content with life, seems to indicate that while Austen understood the problems living in society can create, she was generally optimistic about life in society. It is easy, especially is the blurry-line area of novels, to attribute specific intentions and beliefs to an author when no certain, specific message is intended. Literature provides a process of experimentation and exploration for the writer and the reader, which encourages insights but does not necessarily indicate the espousal of certain beliefs or theories. Austen is more commentator than instigator, which leads me to think that she is not the revolutionary that many people think she is (not that you guys do - but, again, I must say that your comments got me thinking about this question!). I'm of the "slice of life" school of literature, I suppose. : : - K: : _________: And so was JA. Her own metaphor for her writing was "two inches of ivory." She compacted a microcosm into her rather narrow slice of time and space. I have read that she really had no intention whatsoever of making any statement of any kind. It's just my own overzealous analysis I suppose. This may be one definition of a classic to seem more important than was intended. But then we do pick over it, don't we?: : Janet: ________________________The only way to truly know something is to analyze it to death. It's the experimental process! Exploration is a good thing, as Martha Stewart would say. - K
£ £ £
£ £ £ __________
£ £ £ Now that's an interesting introduction, Kali. I know you did not mean to compare them, but what two people would be further apart than JA and Martha Stewart? I can almost see how she would describe her as a character in one of her novels, can you? Come on, let's hear it. Parodies can be fun, too.
£ £ £ : Janet
£ £ £ P.S. I'm sorry I haven't really responded to your lengthy post. As usual, I agree with you and you make a very good stand for JA's ability to enliven her characters with believable personalities of their own. They almost make their own statements as they make their own way through the story. It is fun to read more into it once in awhile, and by the sign of this BB once is not enough and the list keeps growing.
£ £ £ _________
£ £
£ £ _______
£ £
£ £ Janet,
£ £ Glad you're back! Don't worry about not responding to the post - you're not required to! ; ) But I'm glad you did.
£ £ And yes, going deeper becomes necessary (and fun!) as we begin to run out of stuff to talk about. Speaking of which, your Martha Stewart character sounds intriguing. How do you see her? As whom, doing what?
£ £ - K
£
£ _______
£ Kali, your points were very interesting and in general I agree with them but. . . Don't you think Lizzy could be seen as revolutionary regarding her principals? When someone really makes I stand for something she believes it is revolutionary. Away from the theorectical, how many Charlottes do you know? I think its really easy to do what Charlotte did. Lizzy wanted to marry a man who would love and respect her for her wit, liveliness and intelligence. Since those qualities aren't always valued in women today, I don't think men were lining up to get women like her (or else they expected her to change dramatically). As a further aside I think that is why so many literary critics claim that Lizzy will become a boring listless wife. Anyway for Lizzy to reject Mr. Collins and initially Darcy was making a stance for her beliefs. What are your thoughts?
£ Karen
£ PS - I really liked your response on the postmodern diatribe.
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Thanks, Karen. As far as Charlotte, I don't think her marriage was an easy out. She was getting old, and had plenty of time to think about her priorities and desires in life. She went in for the kill and succeeded becuase she knew what she was in for and knew what she wanted. I don't know if I'd say that taking a stand is always revolutionary. In many cases, it is only the reassertion of the most basic, underlying principles of human community. As for Elizabeth, she is one of the few remarkable examples of personhood we had then and have now. We can't all be remarkable, but some of us must be if civilization will continue to flourish. I consider the activities of such people to be progress, not revolution.
In addition, I can't ever see Lizzy becoming a listless housewife. She isn't a wild creature, but judging from Georgiana's reactions to her new sister's relationship with her brother, Lizzy continues to be lively and lovely. I think we can be sure that Mr. Darcy is very pleased indeed with Elizabeth exactly as she is. I don't think Elizabeth could be any other way if she tried (Poor Nan in the _Buccaneers_ learned this the hard way!).
Talk to you later,
Kali
Posted by Cheryl on November 11, 1996 at 17:14:34:
I can't see the connection between charming and tall. Can anyone enlighten me?
£ Inko
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Were not men in that era generally shorter than they are now by several inches? So that a man who was taller than most others would stand out from the crowd, would make a more imposing figure?
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
Posted by Inko on November 11, 1996 at 17:18:07:
By the way, those are pretty nice horses they used!
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I liked all the horses too, but particularly the one Darcy was riding at Rosings - that one had a really "aristocratic" air just right for Rosings!
Inko
Follow Ups:
Posted by Cheryl on November 11, 1996 at 17:20:37:
£ £ Is this just my server, or are there £ signs everywhere?
£ £ £ £ Marsha
£ £ £ _______
£ £ £ Its just Amy giving away virtual money.
£ £ £ Hilary
£ £ _______
£ £ Or is Amy trying to lose weight and giving it to us? If so, thanks, but I've got enough of my own!
£ £ Inko
£ _______
£ I am just trying it. Colons don't seem to show up very well. I sometimes have trouble distinguishing quoted material from the response. The _______ helps, I think. The symbol? I don't know. Does it show up on everybody's browser as a pound sterling sign? I can change it. HC likes the : better or suggested a |. Ever think of HC as a wizard?
£ Amy
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I like the break________that has helped seperate posts a lot. The pound sterling sign is fine, but it's when it appears as £ that it really clutters things up and becomes hard to read. I prefer the colon, myself, but that may just be because that's what I'm used to, you know, old dog, new tricks, and all that.
Cheryl
Nice wizard, but I don't think HC is quite so menacing!
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 17:20:56:
£
£ : I'm going to have to reread the novel [Emma] now as I'd like to know if the line "... it's our imperfections that makes us a perfect couple (?)" is in the novel or was paraphrased in the recent film.
£
£ _______
£
£ No, not in that form (the phrase "perfect couple" doesn't sound very 19th century).
£ What Mr. Knightley tells Emma is this:
£
My interference was quite as likely to do harm as good.
£ It was very natural for you to say, what right has he to lecture me? --
£ and I am afraid very natural for you to feel that it was done in a disagreeable manner.
£ I do not believe I did you any good.
£ The good was all to myself, by making you an object of the tenderest affection to me.
£ I could not think about you so much without doating on you, faults and all; and by dint of fancying so many errors, have been in love with you ever since you were thirteen at least."
- K
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