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Posted by Marsha on November 11, 1996 at 13:47:25:
£ £ Does anyone agree with me that Susannah Harker (Jane) was just a bit to homely for her role. I actually thought Jennifer was the more attractive of the two. Or would Susannah be beautiful in a classic, 18th century fashion? I also think that Bingley could have been more attractive.
£
£ _______
£ No.
£ Jane would have been regarded as more of a beauty in her day with her fulsome figure. It's only our modern views that distort our perceptions into thinking only thinner females are beautiful.
£ Bingley's nature and looks probably befitted his status as a gentleman and therefore he would have been regarded as a good catch. Darcy the more complex of the two was presumed too proud (although his shyness overcame any affability) and in many pictures in older versions of P&P he is portrayed on the podgy side.
_______
I thought Bingley was quite nice-looking (though his expression did remind me of a rabbit ;), but in a cute way) Darcy (of course) was more handsome, but JA says in the book that he was considered handsome by Meriton, before his pride disgusted every one.
Marsha
Posted by Kali on November 11, 1996 at 13:52:54:
Janet!
What's this about your child and Regis & Kathi Lee? When? Why? Do tell...
Kali ;-)
Follow Ups:
Posted by Marsha on November 11, 1996 at 13:53:19:
£
£ £ £ £ If anyone is interested there are pictures from Harper Bazarre that I have never seen before at:
£ £ £ £ Donna
£ £ £
£ £ £ _______
£ £ £
£ £ £ This is the second posting today having pictures that I can't access. There is a little broken picture in the post but no link.
£ £ £ Anne
£ £
£ £ _______
£ £ Sorry Anne, Friends of Firth wouldn't give up. go Amy link page and access it from there under pics.
£ _______Could I have these pictures you are talking about?
_______
Is this just my server, or are there £ signs everywhere?
Marsha
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Posted by Karen on November 11, 1996 at 14:03:07:
£ £ : : : : : : : Is this meant to allow that although one does not benefit from an ideal upbringing, one can grow up to overcome despite the constraints of society? This may have been a rather revolutionary concept in a society in which wealthy and powerful families were expected (and hoped) to rule all forever and ever. Indeed, there was a fall-out in P&P. Any thoughts or am I just expounding/reaching?: : : It is indeed interesting to speculate to what degree JA made this, her favorite character, the proponent of her own particular position in these matters. I, myself, would like to believe this to be the case.: : : Joan, too: : : : ___________________: : : : It seems that Jane Austen is very sympathetic re: human constraint. But how revolutionary is she? This is a question I've seen discussed elsewhere, and now you guys have me thinking about it again (I know this isn't quite what you guys were dealing with, but it relates so I'll go with it!). I believe that the merit of a novel rests on its ability to illuminate the universiality of the human condition, which Austen, and so many authors before and after her, have done well. I don't think her ideas re: understanding between humans and self-realization were so much revolutionary as progressive, and certainly they weren't new to literature or theory. She is very comfortable writing from within the normalcy of polite society, and her themes deal more with the complexity and irony of life in the community of man than with societal reengineering. To Austen, it seems that life in society can be ironic, frustrating, amusing, unfair, and wonderful, for both men and women of many walks of life. : : Her message, in my eyes, at least, is that human beings should do their best to understand others while trying to make for themselves the best existence possible. Austen seems to understand that life can be crappy no matter who you are, especially if you are intelligent: Parents can be dorks (The Bennets, Lady Catherine, Sir William L., etc.); So can the men who are interested in you (Mr. Collins, Wickham), and especially your boyfriend (Mr. Darcy); Some people can be real morons (Mrs. Bennet, etc.); Etc. These and other situations can be explored through the eyes of many of the characters, and not just the smart ones or the "favorites" (Darcy, Lizzy).: : The fact that P&P ends happily, with the main characters enlightened and generally content with life, seems to indicate that while Austen understood the problems living in society can create, she was generally optimistic about life in society. It is easy, especially is the blurry-line area of novels, to attribute specific intentions and beliefs to an author when no certain, specific message is intended. Literature provides a process of experimentation and exploration for the writer and the reader, which encourages insights but does not necessarily indicate the espousal of certain beliefs or theories. Austen is more commentator than instigator, which leads me to think that she is not the revolutionary that many people think she is (not that you guys do - but, again, I must say that your comments got me thinking about this question!). I'm of the "slice of life" school of literature, I suppose. : : - K: : _________: And so was JA. Her own metaphor for her writing was "two inches of ivory." She compacted a microcosm into her rather narrow slice of time and space. I have read that she really had no intention whatsoever of making any statement of any kind. It's just my own overzealous analysis I suppose. This may be one definition of a classic to seem more important than was intended. But then we do pick over it, don't we?: : Janet: ________________________The only way to truly know something is to analyze it to death. It's the experimental process! Exploration is a good thing, as Martha Stewart would say. - K
£ £
£ £ __________
£ £ Now that's an interesting introduction, Kali. I know you did not mean to compare them, but what two people would be further apart than JA and Martha Stewart? I can almost see how she would describe her as a character in one of her novels, can you? Come on, let's hear it. Parodies can be fun, too.
£ £ : Janet
£ £ P.S. I'm sorry I haven't really responded to your lengthy post. As usual, I agree with you and you make a very good stand for JA's ability to enliven her characters with believable personalities of their own. They almost make their own statements as they make their own way through the story. It is fun to read more into it once in awhile, and by the sign of this BB once is not enough and the list keeps growing.
£ £ _________
£
£ _______
£
£ Janet,
£ Glad you're back! Don't worry about not responding to the post - you're not required to! ; ) But I'm glad you did.
£ And yes, going deeper becomes necessary (and fun!) as we begin to run out of stuff to talk about. Speaking of which, your Martha Stewart character sounds intriguing. How do you see her? As whom, doing what?
£ - K
_______
Kali, your points were very interesting and in general I agree with them but. . . Don't you think Lizzy could be seen as revolutionary regarding her principals? When someone really makes I stand for something she believes it is revolutionary. Away from the theorectical, how many Charlottes do you know? I think its really easy to do what Charlotte did. Lizzy wanted to marry a man who would love and respect her for her wit, liveliness and intelligence. Since those qualities aren't always valued in women today, I don't think men were lining up to get women like her (or else they expected her to change dramatically). As a further aside I think that is why so many literary critics claim that Lizzy will become a boring listless wife. Anyway for Lizzy to reject Mr. Collins and initially Darcy was making a stance for her beliefs. What are your thoughts?
Karen
PS - I really liked your response on the postmodern diatribe.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on November 11, 1996 at 14:04:07:
£ £ £ Does anyone agree with me that Susannah Harker (Jane) was just a bit to homely for her role. I actually thought Jennifer was the more attractive of the two. Or would Susannah be beautiful in a classic, 18th century fashion? I also think that Bingley could have been more attractive.
£ £
£ £ _______
£ £ No.
£ £ Jane would have been regarded as more of a beauty in her day with her fulsome figure. It's only our modern views that distort our perceptions into thinking only thinner females are beautiful.
£ £ Bingley's nature and looks probably befitted his status as a gentleman and therefore he would have been regarded as a good catch. Darcy the more complex of the two was presumed too proud (although his shyness overcame any affability) and in many pictures in older versions of P&P he is portrayed on the podgy side.
£
£ _______
£
£ But Susannah Harker certainly wasn't as plump as Jane ought to have been!
£ By any standards, however, I thought SH was very pretty - cow-eyed and all (for all those mythology threaders, she would be considered of the "oxen-eyed Hera" school of beauty). JE seemed to have more of a spunky, sweet kind of beauty.
£ - K
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Did anyone else read this JA said that Lydia was the tallest then she went on to say that she was stout. I didn't think you could be tall and stout at the same time unless they were all short and Lydia being the tallest of them all.
Donna
P.S.You have to see Making of P&P the book you would be very surprised.
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Posted by Ann on November 11, 1996 at 14:05:07:
£ Such gloats are short-lived, I'm afraid, and I thought I might enjoy it while possible for soon some 20-yr-old will come 'round to give it back to me. My son already comments on my fading hair. My daughter teases me that I cannot bend quite as I used to. It will only get worse. :-(
£ Eric
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When my older sister turned 30, I sent her a B-day card which read: You're 30, well I'll be....younger than you for the rest of our lives!!
Now I'm pushing 30. Ack!
Ann
Posted by Kim on November 11, 1996 at 14:12:45:
I posed this question in a follow up, but I don't think it came out right. After Darcy calls her "dearest,lovliest, Elizabeth, he seems to lean toward her as if he was going to kiss her. Do anyone else think so?
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Posted by Bernie on November 11, 1996 at 14:24:52:
: : * 'The ironist's peculiar occupational hazard is to be taken at his word, and JA has suffered the same trap: critics have taken her at her word.'
: I'm a member of the Jane Austen List who is delighted that Amy finally confessed to the existence of this discussion. While I took a quick peek at the time of her confession, I have been swamped with work until today. Must be fate, because this first message speaks to my life at the moment. I'm in big trouble at work precisely because of my ironic world view. So now my consolation is that Jane Austen and I (and Lizzy and her father) have something in common.
:
: : * 'P&P is not only ironic in its procedures and assumptions: it is also about irony, the instrument by which Elizabeth separates herself from a shaming family, asserts her own claims against an overbearing society, and tests emotion without betraying herself into commitment to them. Irony is Elizabeth's stratagem for survival. This is the secret of the perfect self-sufficiency of P&P: irony is both form and content, and each is an image of the other'.
: This is what I love about Pride and Prejudice and why I have come to believe that it provides a perfect way to identify the fools of the world. I believe that truly wise people love this book while fools don't "get" the humor and find it boring. After teaching it to a group of sophomores last year, the definition of sophomoric takes on new meaning. But the few who "got" it will live richer lives from now on. I have convinced my 23-year-old son that this is the one book that absolutely every adult should have read (preferably more than once). Fortunately, he loves it. He carries it with him wherever he goes and savors a little bit at a time while riding the bus or the T to classes or work.
: : * 'Irony is the incognito of the moralist' ('The diplomatic efficacy of irony is that it judges deftly and discreetly, without needing to disrupt the external exchange of insincere compliments. It kills cleanly, leaving no messy trace' ...) It is also politically 'the covertly insolent language of the underdog'
: Ahh...here's where it hits home. My boss must have taken irony detection lessons, because suddenly he has begun to understand what I really mean.
: Thank you, Hillary, for making my day!
___________________
I agree totally with Gina.
Most Brits have a very dry sense of humour, which manifests itself in the form of irony and sarcasm. As a result, comments we make, which are either ironic and/or sarcastic often offend people who don't understand this medium (is this the right word?) of expressing "wit", because they fail to see what is so funny.
Bernie
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Posted by Janet on November 11, 1996 at 14:28:00:
£ Janet!
£ What's this about your child and Regis & Kathi Lee? When? Why? Do tell...
£ Kali ;-)
____
Hi, Kali! I've missed you. There have been so many posts that I haven't been able to keep up, and the other day all the posts were wiped out prior to that day.
There was a thread about (middle) age in which I mentioned that my 3 year old daughter Christina is good friends, in class at school and ballet, with Kathie Lee's daughter. Last Tuesday the camera crew from her show filmed their little ballet class and will show it one day this week. Kathie Lee will let me know which day, and I will try to let you know in advance if you want to tune in. Her show is called "Live! With Regis & Kathie Lee" on ABC (Channel 7 here), from 9:00 to 10:00 am EST. I hardly ever watch it, so I will have to make an effort myself. Apparently she's been talking about it for months, as well as the girls' school, etc.
As I mentioned before in a post which erroneously appeared under Mysterious H.C.'s name (in a thread about Anthrax, to boot), even Regis will appear ala pink tutu - although not the Regis you may expect. It really is sweet to see these little girls in their tutus on toes and tap. I can understand why Kathie wants to show it, even though some may say its child exploitation. I'm a bit embarassed to be mentioning it at all, as it is rather shameless to 'broadcast' your child. But...I can't keep my mouth shut for long.
Hope you can catch it. Glad to see you back.
: Janet
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Posted by Bernie on November 11, 1996 at 14:36:07:
: : Angie, you might not ever in a million years guess it, but some of us here enjoy minutiae.
:
: ___________________
: Who, us, enjoy minutiea? Are you insinuating that we have nothing better to do with our time than to disect every frame of film in P&P2?
: Now, just what was the difference in the patterns between the Netherfield Ball dress and the Pemberly Look dress?
: Cheryl
___________________
ROTFLOL! Cheryl. Very well put. I plead my guilt!!
Bernie
Posted by Tay on November 11, 1996 at 14:43:20:
I think out of all of Jane Austen's characters, I'm most like Marianne - a set of certain expectations that a man must have, and over all sort of dreamy. Just a while ago, we were discussing my sister who might be engaged soon, but the man in question was good, though hardly strong, noble, grand - all the characteristics I firmly insist my future to-be to have! I just hope mine won't turn into some Willoughby and leaving me stranded and left to marry a Col.Brandon (from whom,ironicallly, I have already rejected an offer of marriage). It's sort of scary to see one's own life slowly turning just like how you read in books, isn't it?
Tay
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Posted by Linda on November 11, 1996 at 14:47:20:
£ Did anyone else read this JA said that Lydia was the tallest then she went on to say that she was stout. I didn't think you could be tall and stout at the same time unless they were all short and Lydia being the tallest of them all.
£ Donna
£ P.S.You have to see Making of P&P the book you would be very surprised.
_______
Chapter 2
"Oh!" said Lydia stoutly, "I am not afraid; for though I am the youngest, I'm the tallest."
Chapter 9
Lydia was a stout, well-grown girl of fifteen, with a fine complexion and good-humoured countenance; a favourite with her mother, whose affection had brought her into public at an early age. ...
I expect that Lydia being taller than her sisters would still not have made her tall by our present day standards. I'm guessing, but wouldn't the average height of a woman in 19th century England been about 5'0"?
Linda
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Posted by Donna on November 11, 1996 at 14:49:19:
£ £ £ The thing I like best about JA is that among all the thoroughly enjoyable irony, comedy, and all the sharp observations of the idiocy surrounding us, there is this gleam or thread of sanity, goodness, wisdom, and knowing what is right and striving for it, which wins out in the end.
£ £ £ Hilary
& : Conrad's entire point is that JA, as an ironist, is incapable of disposing of malicious characters with Darcy being a version of Lady Catherine.
; Grace
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Once a version of Lady C.but later changed.
Donna
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Posted by Tay on November 11, 1996 at 14:59:33:
To All,
Last night, while we were getting ready for bed, my littlest sister snuck to the living room and put on the T.V. (perhaps with the intention of watching some of our old home videos of which she is immensely fond of). However, her plans were drastically altered when the T.V. came on ABC, and she screamed out (she's only four, and deaf to our admonishments of yelling in the night while all respectables are asleep): It's Miss Bingley! Miss Bingley!
Needless to say, we all ran there, mostly clad in nightgowns, and we saw the lady who works as Miss Bingley come down the aisle in a wedding dress. SHe was going to marry the guy who works as Edwards in S&S! But, he admits he likes someone else, so she punches him. Poor Miss Bingley: She never gets to marry the man she wants to. Although, at the end (which was all we saw), it showed some pictures of the afterwards, and showed her marrying a red soldier. I couldn't help thinking "Another George Wikham?"
Anyone saw that movie last night on ABC? It was at late ten, Californian time.
Just wondering if anyone else saw it.
Tay
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Posted by Hilary on November 11, 1996 at 15:04:26:
£ £
£ £ £ £ £ If anyone is interested there are pictures from Harper Bazarre that I have never seen before at:
£ £ £ £ £ Donna
£ £ £ £
£ £ £ £ _______
£ £ £ £
£ £ £ £ This is the second posting today having pictures that I can't access. There is a little broken picture in the post but no link.
£ £ £ £ Anne
£ £ £
£ £ £ _______
£ £ £ Sorry Anne, Friends of Firth wouldn't give up. go Amy link page and access it from there under pics.
£ £ _______Could I have these pictures you are talking about?
£
£ _______
£ Is this just my server, or are there £ signs everywhere?
£ Marsha
_______
Its just Amy giving away virtual money.
Hilary
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Posted by Sylvia on November 11, 1996 at 15:08:34:
£ To All,
£ Last night, while we were getting ready for bed, my littlest sister snuck to the living room and put on the T.V. (perhaps with the intention of watching some of our old home videos of which she is immensely fond of). However, her plans were drastically altered when the T.V. came on ABC, and she screamed out (she's only four, and deaf to our admonishments of yelling in the night while all respectables are asleep): It's Miss Bingley! Miss Bingley!
£ Needless to say, we all ran there, mostly clad in nightgowns, and we saw the lady who works as Miss Bingley come down the aisle in a wedding dress. SHe was going to marry the guy who works as Edwards in S&S! But, he admits he likes someone else, so she punches him. Poor Miss Bingley: She never gets to marry the man she wants to. Although, at the end (which was all we saw), it showed some pictures of the afterwards, and showed her marrying a red soldier. I couldn't help thinking "Another George Wikham?"
£ Anyone saw that movie last night on ABC? It was at late ten, Californian time.
£ Just wondering if anyone else saw it.
£ Tay
_______
Yes, I did. It's Four Weddings and a Funeral. It is a wonderful movie too. Hugh Grant is the one whom she punched at altar.
Follow Ups:
Posted by genie on November 11, 1996 at 15:11:52:
£ £ £ Does anyone agree with me that Susannah Harker (Jane) was just a bit to homely for her role. I actually thought Jennifer was the more attractive of the two. Or would Susannah be beautiful in a classic, 18th century fashion? I also think that Bingley could have been more attractive.
£ £
£ £ _______
£ £ No.
£ £ Jane would have been regarded as more of a beauty in her day with her fulsome figure. It's only our modern views that distort our perceptions into thinking only thinner females are beautiful.
£ £ Bingley's nature and looks probably befitted his status as a gentleman and therefore he would have been regarded as a good catch. Darcy the more complex of the two was presumed too proud (although his shyness overcame any affability) and in many pictures in older versions of P&P he is portrayed on the podgy side.
£
£ _______
£ You seem to make the assumption that those who regard Jennifer Ehle as the prettier of the two, do so because she is thinner! I think her face, eyes and smile (which may be due to the role and not due to the actress) are superior to Ms. Harker's. My belief that she is the more attractive has nothing to do with their respective weights.
£ Ann
_______
Funny this question should arise. My daughter and I, both brunettes, found Eliza much more attractive than Jane, who, according to the book, was supposed to be the more beautiful. I mentioned this to a friend, who was once blond, and she thought that Jane (Harker) was prettier than Eliza (Ehle). Beauty seems to be in the eye of the beholder.
P.S. Susannah Harker was pregnant at the time of the filming of P&P2.
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Posted by Genie on November 11, 1996 at 15:20:22:
£
£ : I really love Jane Austen's books and books from her time period. Can anyone recommend to me any other good books or authors?
£ ___________________
£ Angie,
£ Try Fanny Burney's books, like "Evelina" and "Cecilia". They're really cute and pretty good! Right now, I'm reading "The Diary of Fanny Burney" which reads almost like a novel! Afterwards, I plan to read Ann Radcliffe's "The Mysteries of Udolpho". I know Maria Edgeworth also wrote novels in Jane Austen's time; her books were those called Gothic. JA mentions them quite often, especially in NA I think, not too sure.
£ Oh, by the way, has anyone else read the "Being the first Jane Austen Mystery: the Unpleasantness at Scargrave Manor"? It was excellent! But I was astonished at myself for finding out that I actually liked the "Wikham" character better than the "Darcy" character!
£ Tay
_______
Another nineteenth century author who was recommended to me by a very literate friend is Mrs Gaskell. She wrote somewhat later in the century than Jane Austen. I got North and South and found it quite readable, sort of Jane Austen meets Charles Dickens. Not as wonderful as JA, of course, but worthwhile nonetheless. There are several others by Gaskell available as well.
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Posted by Marsha on November 11, 1996 at 15:20:44:
£ I posed this question in a follow up, but I don't think it came out right. After Darcy calls her "dearest,lovliest, Elizabeth, he seems to lean toward her as if he was going to kiss her. Do anyone else think so?
_______
I thought so too, but I think it would have been improper (?). Too bad...
Marsha
Posted by Marsha on November 11, 1996 at 15:23:20:
P.S. Susannah Harker was pregnant at the time of the filming of P&P2.
_______
Really? Is she married- if so, who to???
Marsha
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