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Posted by Candace on November 09, 1996 at 13:53:18:
:...Maybe we've all been around long enough dealing with the "real world" that we know the people of Jane Austen's novels, and have met them invarious guises during our lives and so recognize them as real people when we read of them. We have also been battered enough by life to know that happy ending are rare and so need the optimism or escape of Jane's endings.
: Life experience means that you will have to associate with more and more people, many of whom with which you do not wish to associate. I am getting better, with age, at dealing with such persons, but I admire and envy Lizzy's aplomb. How she did it at 20, I'll never know, but she did grow up with her mother so she became adept at handling tiresome people at an early age!
: I think I've rambled on long enough!
Your post bring to mind one of my favorite columns by Anita Cramer about how women as they grow older relate to each other and the world. I won't relate the entire column as it's quite long, but just this snippet:
"...After a certain age, you get over yourself. You open yourself more to the new and unexpected.
You understand that your way is not the only way, and your experiences are neither as totally unique nor as totally universal as you once believed. and no one else much cares to hear about it anyway.
As a result, you learn to listen and to share, to look for ways to connect with others as opposed to ways to remain apart, alone.
And you realize day after day that life is not about you but, rather, around you.
Maybe to be fair, there are people born more evolved, more aware and sensitive, who seem to know all this without having to live it first.
Without having to age into it like growing into beautifully embroidered and beaded vintage clothes..."
Posted by Inko on November 09, 1996 at 14:07:54:
: : : Remember the Netherfield Ball? Silly question. Darcy wore knee-legnth pants and white stockings. Who prefers this get-up to the long black trousers he wore in other scenes? Please e-mail me at <RYoudelman@aol.com> I wil post the results of this survey.
: : ___________________
: : I don't recall if any other characters wore long pants. I kind of assumed that Darcy was on fashion's cutting edge.
: : Ann
: I vote for long pants, Dare I say daggier? ! ! DonnaT
Another definite vote for the long pants. As I said in my e-mail, his white socks seemed to be sagging around his ankles during the dance. And also for your daggier reason, Donna.
Posted by Amy on November 09, 1996 at 14:24:02:
Thanks Stefanie for stepping in. I always appreciate it when anyone can respond if it means the questioner can get a quicker answer.
: 1. Sometimes it is possible to send a private message
Right. Many of us communicate off list. Off page? Off group? Email me anytime you want to say something private about what's going on or need me to delete a dupe post or something like that. My email link is at the bottom of the main page and the FAQ.
: 2. As for accessing earlier messages, if you ask Amy really nicely, she can send you some of the archives via e-mail.
Yes. They are pretty chunk zip files, not entirely complete and not the easiest things in the world to navigate, but if you would like to try the first 1,000 messages let me know.l
The board runs from a CGI/Perl script that works pretty well, usually. Yes indeed I hope usually, at least. At the very least. It is fun to play with pictures and HTML. Go ahead and see how the others do italics and bold and other stuff like color by checking out the tags in the quoted material in the comments window.
Posted by Cheryl on November 09, 1996 at 14:42:46:
: Your post bring to mind one of my favorite columns by Anita Cramer about how women as they grow older relate to each other and the world. I won't relate the entire column as it's quite long, but just this snippet:
: "...After a certain age, you get over yourself. You open yourself more to the new and unexpected.
: You understand that your way is not the only way, and your experiences are neither as totally unique nor as totally universal as you once believed. and no one else much cares to hear about it anyway.
: As a result, you learn to listen and to share, to look for ways to connect with others as opposed to ways to remain apart, alone.
: And you realize day after day that life is not about you but, rather, around you.
: - Candace
Thank you for sharing that Candace, it expressed a lot of what I've been feeling as I get older and less self-involved. I especially like the sentence I have seperated out- exactly what we have been doing here.
Posted by Eric on November 09, 1996 at 15:28:29:
: : I think some of our Canadian posters may toast you for that! They are part of the Commonwealth but they gained independence from the UK a while ago.
: : Bernie
: I am excessively sorry if my grievous blunder has offended any of those of the Canadian persuasion! Of course I should have said "commonwealth"; in my paltry efforts to save keystrokes I assure you that no insult of any kind was intended.
: Joan, too
Fear not, Joan. Though they gained status as an independent dominion in 1867 and were in the first rank when the Commonwealth was initiated, the Canadians I have known have had a very self-efacing sense of humor and a strong sense of irony (see discussion elsewhere on this subject). I rather suspect they will be more surprised at the association with the UK vice the more common confusion with the US - too many people think they are but a northern extension of the latter and not a separate, independent nation with a different culture and history. Unlike their distant cousins to the south, loyal subjects of her majesty they remain.
Posted by kathleen on November 09, 1996 at 15:28:38:
: : Remember the Netherfield Ball? Silly question. Darcy wore knee-legnth pants and white stockings. Who prefers this get-up to the long black trousers he wore in other scenes? Please e-mail me at <RYoudelman@aol.com> I wil post the results of this survey.
: Gosh, I never noticed he wore anything but knee-length pants, so I guess I must prefer the Netherfield ball outfit since that's all I remember. (And I just watched the first 1hr. episode that was on the A&E classroom this week--I'll have to go back and look!) I do, however, remember the long, tan coat he wore as he escorted Lizzy into Netherfield when Jane was sick, but I don't remember looking below his...waist...in any of the other scenes.
A few instances of long pants (as far as I remember in less than a 6-hour reviewing): tan trousers at Hunsford when he & the Colonel came to call; cream colored trousers for the second proposal (& to introduce Georgiana, I believe); and black trousers for the evenings at Pemberley.
I believe one of our Ann s has done a complete listing of Darcy's outfits -- she can give you more complete info.
Your humble servant, etc.
Posted by Eric on November 09, 1996 at 15:33:10:
: : Hi!
: : Did anyone nodiced, that the protraits of Darcy/Georiana Darcy/Wickham didn't look like them? not at all? especialy Darcy's, couldn't they find a better painter? or was it fashion in those day to draw things not in the way they look like?
: : Ayelet
: The miniature of Wickham favored him - Darcy's miniature was a little less faithful. The portraits, however, I felt were fairly good (Darcy and Georgiana).
Remember also that the miniatures date from BEFORE the elder Mr. Darcy's death, that is, they are from at least 5 years ago. We do not know the date of the "finer, larger portrait" in the gallery, but it is not out of place and in keeping with the style of portraiture common to that time period (experiments with lighting and three-dimensional effects were still in their infancy - the miniatures are decidedly two dimensional). The one of Georgiana makes her look slightly older than she appears in the flesh, but is otherwise a fair likeness.
Posted by Gina on November 09, 1996 at 15:37:10:
: One of the reasons that books made into films so often fail, for me, is because I had put a face, and voice and personality to the character, and if they are different in the film, something is wrong. If one sees a film first, and then reads the book, you are more or less forced to 'see' the characters from the film. In P&P2, Lizzie and Darcy are even better that I imagined them. They have not destroyed anything, rather, they have brought the book to life.
This is a perfect description of my reaction to this film. P&P has been my favorite book for years, but seeing Lizzy and Darcy portrayed by Ehle and Firth brought even more meaning and delight to the experience the next time I read it. (Actually, last spring I read it 3 times, since I was teaching it to one of my English classes. None of my H.S. sophomores could believe, let alone comprehend how or why I could do that.) When I showed a tape of the film in class, many students (who had presumably already read the book and some had seen the Garvie/Rintoul version) finally saw the light. In a sense, Ehle and Firth salvaged at least some students who might never have read another Jane Austen. After seeing the possibilities presented by the film, they were at least open to the notion that they might read another. Those (sadly, few) students who had loved the book as they read it, adored the film.
Posted by Rachel on November 09, 1996 at 15:39:07:
Thanks to all of you who responded to my survey for preference: Darcy in short dancing pants OR Darcy in long black dress trousers. Though the response overwhelmingly favored 'long pants,' several respondents said they preferred riding breeches with knee-length boots; it was observed that the phrase 'long pants' was somewhat vague, in that no distinction was drawn between long black formal trousers and riding breeches, which are technically 'long pants-' yes - they do button on the tightly fitted calf-portion; but the boots serve to divide the figure visually into three distinct elements, in much the same way that short pants would. For further or more detailed discussion, please e-mail me at<RYoudelman@aol.com>
Posted by Eric on November 09, 1996 at 15:39:38:
: More tidbits from the Emma promo in case you have not caught it yet.
: Samantha Bond plays Mrs Weston. You might remember her as Maria Bertram Rushworth from the 1983 BBC Mansfield Park. I like her. She seems very cute and clever as she quips about sexual tension in Emma, "Can you see an urge on television?"
: I should say so.
: I was disappointed to see Andrew Davies for the first time in an interview. He is such a hero. Bright guy. He must be. An attractive white haired guy. Sadly, he seemed just a bit swishy. That's not to say he's gay. I don't know. But shoot my disapointment never seems to diminish whenever I find out some writer is gay. Maugham, Whitman.
Might we call your temper "resentful"? Perhaps you were hoping... But on that subject, it is better to remain silent. ;->
In a more serious vein, it is possible and admirable to appreciate the good work people do even as one disapproves of other characteristics and flaws. Whitman's poetry is superb regardless, and Mr. Davies screenplay is excellent whatever his less savory inclinations. I beg you, be not long disappointed.
Posted by Eric on November 09, 1996 at 15:43:31:
: : It is a very thought-provoking scene and I would love to learn of other takes on it. Louise
: : :
: : : I admit it, I'm not pool-knowledgable. What is the significance of the red ball. Someone on this BB said it said it all "but not to me". Help .....
: : ___________________
: : I believe he was playing billiards, not pool. There are only three balls and I think the red ball is the one that's NOT meant to go into the pocket (but I may be all wrong in that). If I'm right, I think it shows how much Lizzie unsettles and unnerves him - something he's not even willing to admit himself at that point.
: : Inko
: Inko, Thank you, I thought it must be something like that.I was vext. . Thanks Donna T
If billiards, then we might ask why there were pockets on the table at all. Is anyone a historian of the games we now call billiards and pool? Perhaps he might enlighten us. Until then, I shall have to remain vexed.
Posted by Eric on November 09, 1996 at 15:44:12:
: I have thought that this scene was to illustrate the growing tension/interest between Elizabeth and Darcy. By this time in the book (and the scene in PP2) Darcy has already admitted to admiring Lizzy's "fine eyes" and is attracted to her wit and sponteneity. The anger (frustration) he shows I believe is toward himself: as he battles his attraction to Lizzy with her "unsuitability." It is a very thought-provoking scene and I would love to learn of other takes on it. Louise
That's what I thought.
Posted by kathleen on November 09, 1996 at 15:44:21:
: I recently picked up a very cheap version of P&P. It is a paperback Everyman, 1996. As an introduction it has an article by Peter Conrad, which is very thought provoking. I'm wondering if anyone else has read it.
: It is quite long, so I can't do it justice here. But some of the points it makes are:
: * 'The ironist's peculiar occupational hazard is to be taken at his word, and JA has suffered the same trap: critics have taken her at her word.'
: * 'P&P is not so artlessly effervescent as JA pretends.
: My first impulse was to reject all this, (especially I can't take such a bleak view of D and E's relationship) but it's not as easy to do as I thought. There seems to be a lot of truth in it. What do you think?
Some of this reminds me of an essay by D.W. Harding about Jane Austen, entitled "Regulated Hatred." Part of his thesis, if I understand it properly, is that Jane Austen used the irony in her novels to make fun of the society in which she lived -- a society which she partially hated, according to Harding.
He says something similar to the first line you quoted above about readers taking the author at her word. He also points out that most readers (in JA's time as well as today) probably feel superior to the comic characters (Mrs. B, Mr. C), even if they are much like them .
I agree with you, Hilary, that these theories give us something to think about, but regardless of Jane Austen's intentions, we get a great deal of enjoyment out of P&P -- and I also do not see that Elizabeth & Darcy fall in love because they enjoy hating each other.
Oh well, it is always interesting to see another point of view.
Posted by Eric on November 09, 1996 at 15:49:15:
: : As a kid I had the requisite obsession with horses and was fortunate enough to have taken riding lessons when my Girl Scout troop did the horsemanship badge. The stable where we rode had one horse appropriately named "Cheeky" who was of a stubborn and independent character, and whoever rode her was given a crop to carry, and occasionaly to flick lightly on her boot or her own leg, just to remind Cheeky of who was in charge. Even though I never saw anyone (including the stable staff) actually hit her with it, the sight of it in her peripheral vision was enough to keep Cheeky on the straight and narrow. (Cheeky was also sneaky and if one did not keep the right hand rein firmly in hand while preparing to mount, she enjoyed turning around and nipping one in the derriere. I no longer remember the names of any of the other horses, but none of us ever forgot Cheeky!)
: : Joan, too
: I also took horseback riding lessons as a child. During those four years, I rode many different horses and while I owned two crops, one for dressage and one for jumping, I only used it on a horse once after Anya, the horse, threw me on an attempted jump. (It was only a tap, but I refused to administer it until I was assured that it wouldn't hurt her.) With all of the other horses, just tapping your boot with the crop was enough.
: Like Cheeky, I am sure that I will never forget Anya, but my reason is not the same. About a month after my jumping incident and others as well, Anya mysteriously disappeared. While no one would tell us where she went, there were several rumors flying around that her name was changed to Alpo. I know it is distressing, but so it is.
Here in Italy, at least in Sicily where I currently reside, "equino" is as common as "bovino" in the meat markets and considerably cheaper. For some local dishes it is the preferred meat. I, personally, have a hard time eating it without feeling like I have just had a bit of Mr. Ed. I rarely inquire as to the source of the meat served any more.
Posted by Angie Wang on November 09, 1996 at 15:54:19:
Do you think that Mrs. Bennet is a bad mother? She seems to ignore the behavior of her younger daughters. I don't think she has ever tried to discipline them. Also, she is somewhat selfish and often times thoughless. For example, making Jane go on horseback to Netherfield in the rain. It also makes me wonder why such a sensible man like Mr. Bennet would marry someone who lacks sense.
Posted by Cheryl on November 09, 1996 at 16:01:15:
: Do you think that Mrs. Bennet is a bad mother?
In a word, yes.
It also makes me wonder why such a sensible man like Mr. Bennet would marry someone who lacks sense.
In a word, sex.
Posted by Amy on November 09, 1996 at 16:02:57:
: Do you think that Mrs. Bennet is a bad mother?
Angie, you might not ever in a million years guess it, but some of us here enjoy minutiae. Who is it who is writing a paper on Bennet family dynamics?
Posted by Cheryl on November 09, 1996 at 16:06:40:
: : Do you think that Mrs. Bennet is a bad mother?
: In a word, yes.
: It also makes me wonder why such a sensible man like Mr. Bennet would marry someone who lacks sense.
: In a word, sex.
I just tried my first HTML stuff with the italics above and it worked! I'm so jazzed! (If you knew how basically incompetent I am with all the computer stuff, you'd realize what a big deal this is for me.)
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