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Posted by Stefanie on November 06, 1996 at 01:38:31:
: Stefanie - I agree with you, especially about JA books and films. But I must confess, I never managed to complete Middlemarch before I saw it, and so far I've only tried bits and pieces of Joseph Conrad's "Nostromo" but haven't been able to get "into" the book itself. I find Conrad is very difficult reading anyway and terribly dull. Thank goodness I can always retreat to JA.
: I recently finished The English Patient, and couldn't see how they could make it into a film, but apparently it's a very good one, so I'm now anxious to see it.
: Inko
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While I have never read "Nostromo" I did read "Heart of Darkness" and must agree with you that Conrad is rather dry. In fact, if I didn't have to read it for a class, I definitely wouldn't have. As for Middlemarch, I actually had never heard of it until today. I suppose it is yet another book to add to my reading list.
Stefanie
Posted by Kali on November 06, 1996 at 01:45:08:
: : : :
: : : : No, but I might eat the cat.
: : : : - K
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Cute. You must not be as compulsive as some of us -- about this anyway. I suppose you will have to be a little compulsive in other positive ways to succeed in law school. You are going to write one great brief, Kali.
: : : Amy
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Thanks! Actually, if left to my own devices, I would probably be exhibiting ultra-compulsive behaviour about the tapings at this point. Right now, honors thesis is forcing me to be compulsive about Upton Sinclair, the '34 CA gubernatorial race, and ag. laborism during the depression (borrrring). Otherwise, it would be P&P only - my first love!
: : - K
: : PS - Don't tell my cats about the above - please?!
:
: _________
: Kali, are we back to cats again or is this just another obsession? (I finally noticed your post on yet another thread about the sly one.)
: : Janet
: __________
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Jane, Janet, Janet. Hee hee. I'm pretty sly myself! Yes, I love cats.
- K
Posted by Stefanie on November 06, 1996 at 01:47:20:
: So sorry, I was preoccupied with so many posts (and on election night - perhaps this tells us something) that I did not hear my name called.
: I, too, was surprised at Darcy's indiscretion with this remark in the film, so I checked the book and it does not appear in that scene, at least.
: Don't you think Darcy tried to get the Bingley sisters' goat and may have even enjoyed teasing them, somewhat like an older brother's sly taunting (there we go again)? He definitely did not want to reveal his true feelings, least of all to them, until he was sure of Lizzy. Maybe some of his denials about his feelings for her were meant to lead them down another path and yes - get them off his back. Goodness knows they were climbing all over him - like cats with claws! (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
: : Janet
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While I don't recall off hand where this quote is in the book, I know that it is in there somewhere.
I always thought that when Darcy said this line,he was not sure of his feelings for Lizzy yet and he surely didn't want any of hte Bingley sisters to suspect him. I figured that this line was said to put on the facade of normality. (Is that a word?) Anyway, I would definetly have to say that he lives to regret ever speaking these words.
Stefanie
Posted by Ann2 on November 06, 1996 at 01:49:36:
: : : :
: : : : : : No, but I might eat the cat.
: : : : : : - K
: : : : :
: : : : : ___________________
: : : : : Kali,
: : : : : ROFLOL!!
: : : : : Ann
: : : :
: : : : _Me too!!
Ann2__________________
: : : :
: : : : Ann,
: : : : I already asked Hilary this, but what does LOL mean? While I'm asking, what does ROFLOL mean?
: : : : I know I'm a Lamer,
: : : : Kali
: : :
: : : _________
: : : I only learned recently from a kind soul here that, if I remember correctly, LOL stands for "laughing out loud", whereas ROFLOL means "rolling on the floor laughing out loud". As you may expect, there are apparently other interpretations as well.
: : : Janet
: : P.S. One variation is "look of longing", but I don't know how this is reinterpreted with ROFLOL.
: :
That would be for example :Rather obsessed from look of longing ! Need I say which one?
Ann2
Posted by Kali on November 06, 1996 at 01:50:05:
: :
: : : Yes, but in the book, this encounter is in the afternoon (confusingly called morning - morning extended to dinner time in 1812). I also think that Georgiana has gone to bed in P&P2 - after all she is much younger than the rest of the party.
: : : Anna
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : I thought dinner, in 18th/19th c. England and early America, was actually what we call lunch, and what we call dinner was called supper. If that's the case, then it really would be morning, and not afternoon. That is, unless you know something I don't. Will you please explain?
: : - K
:
: ___________________
: According to a variety of texts in my local Uni library meals in 1812 for the gentry would go something like
:
: on wakening maybe coffee or chocolate (the drink) in your room , not officially acknowledged
: breakfast ~ 10 am, fairly substantial (as seen at Netherfield on LIzzy's arrival)
: if you were very active 'nuncheon', a light meal eg soup, middayish (many skipped this)
: dinner 5-8 pm, getting later as the decade went on - tending to be early for country people and later for Londoners. In 'The Watsons' the main family is about to sit down to dinner when a guest drops in a 3pm - I this was written in the late 1790s
: If you were up late &/or throwing an up-market party supper, another light (read informal) meal could be served about midnight. I like the section neat the end of P&P (text) where Mrs Bennet, having had Darcy, Bingley and others to dinner schemes to get D & B to stay to supper after the other guests have left.
: I hope this helps,
: Anna
: (yes I have been pursuing this obsession to great lengths)
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Okay, this makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
- K
Posted by Kali on November 06, 1996 at 01:52:23:
: I actually do it the other way around. I like to see the
: movies first (if they are concidered to be good ones). I
: find that it gives me a framework on which the book builds.
: I don't build visual imagery in my head when I read books
: cold anyway, so I don't gain anything by reading a book first.
: I suppose I'm just strange, but I enjoy books much more if I
: have seen the film first.
: Ann the Heretic
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THere is always room for exception.
- K
Posted by Amy on November 06, 1996 at 01:52:59:
: but whoever that profane poster is (mentioned by Amy at the top of the list), please don't send any trashy mail to me.
: I don't think there's much risk in this case. If it's the one that I saw, it wasn't mean or nasty - just inappropriately worded for our PG-13 rating. ;-) Joan, too
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Joan is quite right, Janet. And no one else ought to be alarmed either. It was just an over ardent Darcy lover. Not dangerous in any way, except maybe to the eyes of our little sisters here.
Amy
Posted by Kali on November 06, 1996 at 01:59:43:
: : : Speaking of hormones, I wonder if it was Lizzy's going quite berserk which made her react so strongly to Darcy. Certainly seems familiar to me.
: : : This week, most certainly due to hormone stuff, I awoke and decided to have my long hair chopped off. The deed having been done, I now look longingly at Lizzy's beautiful locks in the scene in which she tells Jane of her engagement to Darcy.
: : : And Speaking of hair, I thought it was very interesting that Lizzy was cast in such soft light at this point--her prejudice having turned inside out, love prevailing; her rather harsh, possibly stylish, hairdo, undone--soft, flowing curls exposed. She looked so beautiful. Darcy would have loved her even sooner, I suspect, had he seen that hair! (Or lusted, perhaps.)
: : : ::Tommye
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : I undestand. I lopped off all of my hair, too, and sometimes it drives me crazy - phantom hair! Yes, nothing like a beautiful head of hair to reel in a man. I'm told that most men find long hair very erotic...does this constitute a hair fetish?
: : - K
:
: ___________________
: Just think, Susannah Harker had 2 1/2 feet of her hair cut off in the front in order to play Jane!! That's several years worth of growth!!
: Ann
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EEK!
- K
Posted by Karen on November 06, 1996 at 02:00:09:
:
: At the beginning of episode 1, Lizzy was chatting with Jane in
: Jane's bedroom, she made the following remarks:
: "If I could love a man who would love me enough to take
: me for a mere 50 pounds a year, I should be well pleased
: ... but such a man can hardly be sensible, you know I can
: never love a man without his wits."
: I can't quite make it out why Lizzy thinks "such a man can hardly be
: sensible", isn't this kind of the love she upholds? Or in that
: society, even Lizzy thinks an alliance only out of love and without
: any regard to social/econimical eligibiliy is absurd ?
: Zimei
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I have to believe it is your latter former statement "even Lizzy thinks an alliance only out of love and without any regard to social/economical eligibility is absurd." I believe (and many of the literary critics I've been reading agree) that this is the important balance in all of JA novels. Marrying only for love is more than not wise (at least to Austen)it reflects your sensibility. It's also what makes Lizzy so fun because she will not compromise on her standard of marrying a man who ardently loves and respects her and has enough money that she will not lose her social ranking. There's my two cents.
Karen
Posted by Ann2 on November 06, 1996 at 02:01:32:
: : Ann2 ( I´ll cure that with the evening dose of Priprejudin)
: ___________________
: Ann2, that's the name of our passion in Swedish? I like its looks very well indeed.
: Amy
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No, not officially and I´m rather proud (pun intended) of it myself.
Ann2
Posted by Kali on November 06, 1996 at 02:03:08:
: : I have often wondered what Mr Darcy would be called in private. Mr Darcy? Darcy? Fitzwilliam? Fitz? William?
: : Another Anne
:
: ___________________
: Myself I prefer Darcy - Fitzwilliam is *too* confusing (what were his parents thinking of), Mr is too formal, Fitz too twee (besides being a polite way of saying 'bastard of'), William is incorrect. Maybe we should come up with a middle name for him, historically inaccurate though it be.
: Anna
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How about "Ralph?"
- K
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 06, 1996 at 02:09:11:
: : : I have often wondered what Mr Darcy would be called in private. Mr Darcy? Darcy? Fitzwilliam? Fitz? William?
: : : Another Anne
: :
: : ___________________
: : Myself I prefer Darcy - Fitzwilliam is *too* confusing (what were his parents thinking of), Mr is too formal, Fitz too twee (besides being a polite way of saying 'bastard of'), William is incorrect. Maybe we should come up with a middle name for him, historically inaccurate though it be.
: : Anna
:
: ___________________
:
: How about "Ralph?"
: - K
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Or, maybe "Frank" ?
- K
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 06, 1996 at 02:12:45:
: Just a reminder -- Don't forget to vote. After all it is a man's world until women vote!
___________________
Any of you folks watching NBC - sheesh, did you notice the CHRISTMAS TREE already up in Rockefeller Plaza? I guess Hallowe'en is the new start of the Christmas season, c/o the recent recession.
- K
Follow Ups:
Posted by Karen on November 06, 1996 at 02:19:09:
:
: : "I'd soon rather call her mother a wit".
: : There is absolutely no denying its supreme rudeness, but I cannot help just the same loving that statment . . . and the way he says it. Darcy is so casual, leaning against the fireplace, looking down nonchantly (stirring up the fire?) while he gives one of his pert remarks - something to rival even Lizzie's! Don't get me wrong - I love Lizzie dearly, yet just the same, I cannot help but love that remark. It came so fluent, as if it hardly required a second thought! But, oh, how he will soon regret it!
: : Any other comments/disagreements?
: : Tay
: ___________________
: Um, I'm new here, but, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't Mr. Darcy say, "I'd as soon call her mother a WITCH"? I thought maybe... I LOVED the movie, and as I can see, you did, too....
: :Sarah
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Can you all explain to me why you like this line so much? I guess I am remembering the first time I saw P&P2. I enjoyed Lizzy so much and I was so offended by what he said about her at the first dance "tolerable but not pretty enough to tempt him". When he makes this comment I was determined to hate him. Of course I got over it but I never understood how he went from thinking she was tolerable to even considering her. JA explains it really well though so I have come to see it as Darcy having to eat his words. Sorry for the babbling. Is this what everyone else thinks??
Karen
Posted by Raphael on November 06, 1996 at 02:37:39:
: Jonathan Firth is Colin's younger brother. Colin also has a younger sister,Kate, who is apparently also involved in acting.
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I happened to see Jonathan Firth in a movie tonight -- "American Friends", starring Michael Palin, and co-written by he and Tristram Powell (who directed).
He looks much younger in this than in Middlemarch ... much. However, the copyright notice on the box is 1993, just a year before that of Middlemarch.
Cordially,
Raphael
Posted by Karen on November 06, 1996 at 02:40:36:
: : : And That Walk - I also love Darcy's elegant walk through the gallery in the dark with his dogs later in the scene. It's lovely to see how his mind is immersed in thoughts of Lizzy in those solitary moments.
: : : Zimei
: :
: : : In fact, what a expression, self-confidence coupled by a joyfull smile, we can feel him most and truly content. What has been puzzling me for a while : leaning on the mantelpiece, he remembers foundly Lizzy's look (of love)and then turns his head in a more serious focus gaze. As if he came to realize something with finality of it's own, some kind of a decision, as if to say "this is it, no more room for questions, the answer is this". In the serie I saw, this is immediatly followed by his dressing and preparing for his departure to see Lizzy, taking great care in is allure has if it was a pivotal. Could he have thought of proposing again ?
___________________
I know others will disagree with me but I really thought he was going to propose to Lizzy at Lambton. Joan, too makes great arguments to the contrary but the romantic in me likes to believe he would have. While he is fencing he is trying to overcome this. He sees her at Pemberley and after the shock wears off he is frantic to find her. To his relief she hasn't left and she admires Pemberley. She allows him to introduce his sister to her. But what seals it for me are his looks after dinner at Pemberley (see Amy's excellent break down of each lucious look). Perhaps he only wanted to be with her at Lambton but those looks make me think it is more.
Karen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on November 06, 1996 at 02:43:40:
: Zimei
: the beginning of episode 1, Lizzy was chatting with Jane in Jane's bedroom, she made the following remarks:
: "If I could love a man who would love me enough to take me for a mere 50 pounds a year, I should be well pleased ... but such a man can hardly be sensible, you know I can never love a man without his wits."
This scene does not actually occur in the book - it is one that has been added (like the scene in which Lydia and Kitty argue over the bonnet) in order to quickly introduce the characters and establish the important elements of their characters. (So in the bonnet scene we see that Mrs. B. is an ineffective parent who favors Lydia and that Lydia is spoiled and that Kitty is the family "victim".)
In the bedroom scene we learn that Jane is considered the pretty one and that her disposition is also uncommonly amiable, and that both girls are aware that because of the entailment of their father's estate, their options are quite limited if at least one of the sisters does not marry money, and that while both Lizzie & Jane recognize that it would be advantageous (even necessary) to marry for money, they would prefer to marry for love.
And we also see right from the start that unlike any of her sisters, Lizzie has the intelligence to comprehend the effect of the limitations that society has placed on them. While she dreams of the kind of love that could overlook practicality, she knows exactly why these details must be attended to. While Jane says "We're not very poor," Lizzie understands very well that they "have little but their charms to recommend them" - and in that case, Jane is the only Bennet sister with enough beauty to be likely to attract a husband wealthy enough to overlook the 50 pounds and take care of the rest of the family once her father dies. Lizzie, though, is determined to marry for love, having observed the "daily proof" of a loveless marriage.
: I can't quite make it out why Lizzy thinks "such a man can hardly be sensible", isn't this kind of the love she upholds? Or in that society, even Lizzy thinks an alliance only out of love and without any regard to social/econimical eligibiliy is absurd ?
True, it's the kind of love that she wants, but she also realizes that very few men are wealthy enough to disregard the realities of life and do exactly as they please. Colonel Fitzwilliam, for example, as a younger son of nobility, inherits nothing, and were he to marry for love, he would be unable to support his family. It's not that she thinks ignoring income absurd, but that she recognizes that except for men of large fortune, it simply could not work given the structure of society at the time. So she does not begrudge Wickham's pursuit of Mary King, and laughingly tells Jane to take care to fall in love with a man of good fortune, and we see that she, herself, is mentally prepared to become a spinster governess rather than to marry without love.
And while she laughs at herself over it, we see by her actions that she is prepared to stick to her convictions. Even when presented with the opportunity to do away with the effects of the entailment by marrying Mr. Collins and thus ensure the security of her entire family, she will not even consider it. But had she happened to fall in love with a poor clergyman with a living who was willing to take her for 50 pounds per year, we can also see her as willing to accept him.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on November 06, 1996 at 02:49:10:
: Pardon the repeat, but the soundtrack is an Angel CD with the bar code number 7243 8 36090 2 4
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
: Joan, too
: forgive my ignorance but what's an angle CD.
: Is this CD different from the one posted below as the sound track of P&P? As you can tell I'm not a big CD owner.
: Thanks for your help
: Mich
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That's "Angel" - with a capital A - Angel is the recording company that put out the sound track recording. (They produce primarily classical titles, I believe.) So this CD is the sound track recording. (I'm not a big CD owner either - in fact, this is the first one that I ever purchased! [grin])
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Raphael on November 06, 1996 at 02:50:56:
Terese,
I can't help you with Middlemarch the book -- I have not read it.
However, as for the series, it has much to recommend it, especially to a P&P2 fan. Large cast of characters, relatively small scope of surroundings (that is to say, the country town setting, although there is often travel in Austen's novels, such as Derbyshire in P&P2), comedy of manners, deeper subtexts, the concepts of goodness conflicting with immorality, and many other concepts.
But what I think is really important is Middlemarch's connections as a mini-series with P&P2. After all, that's what this BB is about. Extraordinary cinematography -- in fact, technically more polished and proficient than P&P2. Think the opulence of Howard's End and you are not far off. Rufus Sewell, Robert Hardy, Elizabeth Spriggs, Jonathan Firth, and all the other actors whose names I can not remember are all absolutely superb, and the sophisticated, complex intertwining of the lives of these characters winding in and out of their affairs is dazzling.
I can not recommend this mini-series enough. After seeing it so freshly in mind from the weekend viewing, and how effectively moving it was, I am especially motivated to encourage watching it. I doubt it could create the slavish viewing that P&P2 seems to have elicited in us all, but when others around us vomit uncontrollably at the thought of yet ANOTHER viewing of P&P@, turn to Middlemarch. It shall satisfy.
Cordially,
Raphael
Posted by Joan, too on November 06, 1996 at 03:04:02:
: : : "I'd soon rather call her mother a wit".
: I, too, was surprised at Darcy's indiscretion with this remark in the film, so I checked the book and it does not appear in that scene, at least.
___________________
No, the scene in which it was actually said does not appear in the book (though Davies added it to the conversation at the end of Chapter 4) - it only appears in the book in the scene where Caroline quotes it back at Darcy at the end of Chapter 45.
Joan, too
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