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Posted by Janet on November 05, 1996 at 20:12:10:
:
: : Well said, Kali! True, Lizzy and Darcy chose each other on the basis of their own judgement, reason and emotions - as equal partners - DESPITE the dictates of society, family and friends. This confirms their mutual committment, respect and love for each other - IN SPITE of all the continuing restriction that a woman does not deserve to be happy if she marries. Bah, humbug to that philosophy. Capital, Capital! So glad we agree.
: : : Janet
: : P.S. Since my connection also goes dead if I spend too much time in one place, I have to be quick to post online. More later...
: : _________
:
: ___________________
:
: Hee hee. Let's all marry Mr. Darcy and live as polygamists in Antarctica!
: - K
__________
Kali, the very idea! Do you think Mr. Darcy (or Lizzy) would approve?
Thank you so much for all the time you spent (twice) to respond to 'the theory'. I enjoy reading these critiques (almost as much as this BB) for more of the unlimited variety of interpretations. I can usually see some application to many of these theories, but I, too, find it disturbing to think of Lizzy and Darcy as anything but admirable, right and just in their actions and attachment to each other.
As you say, we seem to see Lizzy as a heroine of freedom and equality instead of a victim of male-domination (from which I suspect many of these theories stem). She and Darcy chose each other of their own volition after much careful consideration, in direct opposition to the formidable constrictions of society. They did so in the end without P&P or the presumption that the other was even still accepting of them. Hence, the back and forth questioning of each other's thoughts, actions and feelings which creates suspense throughout the story.
If anything, in the book Darcy is portrayed as a bit more detached and mysterious, which may be why these critiques do not focus on him as much as Lizzy. In the video he is humanized and brought to life as an emotional as well as physical being. We have a greater insight into what goes on inside him (Davies view, anyway), and so we develop an attachment(!) to him, as well as our own personal views of his motivations. I find it interesting that the critics do not try to pin him down inasmuch as they apply labels to Lizzy. She is too complex an individual to plug into a slot. There are so many points to consider which may be why we keep going on and on and on...
Thanks again for all your thoughts.
: Janet
_________
Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 20:18:03:
: Everyone,
: I spent part of the weekend immersed in the second-most pleasurable
: mini-series: Middlemarch [snip] I should very much like to talk about
: it here on the BB. I think it has much to associate it with P&P2.
: Perhaps we could schedule a virtual viewing together once the Read and
: View business of P&P2 is all wrapped up? I am sure many of us have already
: seen it, but I think it might prove very amusing to all watch it 'together'.
: Cordially,
: Raphael
___________________
I did see the mini-series, and thought it quite good, though not anywhere close to being addictive in the way that P&P2 is - however, one of the things that is most appealing about P&P2 is the degree to which the production is faithful to the novel (either literally or in spirit) and I have not read Middlemarch (nor am I like to have time to in the immediate future, especially if it should turn out to be as excellent as many seem to think it is!) so that parallel was not part of the mix when I viewed it. In theory I'd find this is an interesting R&V, though in practice, I might not make it to the starting line.
Joan, too
Posted by Janet on November 05, 1996 at 20:23:43:
: : : I take comfort from the fact that Lizzy continued to take liberties with Darcy that amazed Georgiana.
: : : Anna
: :
: : ___________________
: : And this is why Darcy was the perfect match for Lizzy.
: : "She began now to comprehend that he was exactly the man, who, in disposition and talents, would most suit her. His understanding and temper, though unlike her own, would have answered all her wishes. It was an union that must have been to the advantage of both; by her ease and liveliness, his mind might have been softened, his manners improved, and from his judgement, information, and knowledge of the world, she must have received benefit of greater importance."
: : Stefanie
:
: ___________________
:
: While I don't necessarily disagree with the responses, I nevertheless see the possibility of conflict in Elizabeth and Darcy's future (not serious, they will generally be very happy, I believe). I can see that the personalities might lead to some fights--and Darcy has the habit of command and the law and convention on his side. I can imagine Elizabeth fuming privately to herself that he still has "a selfish disdain for the feelings of others," as a result of winning the verbal debate but losing the overall argument. This will be the result of Elizabeth's being a wife. I love Darcy (and especially since January have been daydreaming about the nice physical form he can now take in the mind!), but I can bet that he was sometimes a difficult husband and Elizabeth forced to take "his judgment, information and knowledge of the world," whether she really wanted to or not. IMHO
: Rebecca
__________
Perhaps with "a little liveliness" on her part, Lizzy could draw him out of any regression to which he may be inclined. If he ever dared to bring up the bit about her being "beneath him", I trust she would rightly put him in HIS place as she did so well before. I suppose some of this is why the critics forsee doom but what also underlines the duplicity and irony of the story. Since Lizzy and Darcy went through all that and beyond, we hope they would not revert.
: Janet_________
Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 20:33:45:
: he gave me no warning, and in fact never responded or wrote to me in any way. He merely unsubscribed me.
: julie
___________________
Hmmmm - as Jane Bennet would say, perhaps there has been some terrible mistake? If he never wrote to you in any way, perhaps the unsubscription was accidental? A list that I have
Posted by Janet on November 05, 1996 at 20:42:13:
: : : : By so doing, she gave up her freedom, independence and subjected herself to the power of a man who was stronger than herself and, for that matter, stronger than her father or any other man she has ever known.
: : Since she never had either much practical freedom or any
: : financial freedom before she married Darcy, I can not see
: : that she lost anything by marrying. She was not independent
: : when she met him, and would more likely gain some independence
: : from the marriage--certainly financially (wealth allows more
: : freedom than poverty).
: : Even walking alone the three miles to Netherfield was thought
: : by the Bingleys (and Darcy) to be an extraordinary and
: : undignified liberty, which a fashionable young lady should
: : not dare to attempt. She could not go where she liked or do
: : what she wished without her father's permission and a
: : guardian to look after her (at least until she became an old
: : maid). She had no money of own, only that which her father
: : could give her. Few women of the day were in Lady C.'s
: : position of having control over their own lives and finances.
: : She also grew up with the knowledge that, if none of the
: : family made a good marriage, they would be booted out of
: : their house with little to fall back on. If neither Lizzy's
: : nor Jane's marriage took place, the Bennets would become, on
: : the death of Mr. Bennet, a poorer version of the
: : Dashwoods. There is no freedom in poverty.
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
:
: Lizzie put the burden on Jane to marry well. If she felt pressured she would have said yes to Darcy the first time. No matter what the circumstances that would be a ruthless survior. She asked Jane "You do not think ill of me." Neither seemed to be worried about it to me. Jane was going to marry Bingley because Mr. Darcy would see to that.
: Mr. Bennet didn't really seem worried about it either. The only one that worried was Mrs. B. They both said they would like to marry for love. That was their first priority.
: I beleive that was JA belief. Lizzie marry Mr. Darcy was like icing on the cake. The family was twice as secure.
: IMHO Donna
: She had independence and freedom that is why she was able to walk to Nfield. Independence is also a feeling and if you feel free you are. Marrying Darcy she would have more feedom she would have the money to take a carriage. He could never keep her if she didn't want to stay because of her own self convidence. If you love someone you are never totally free. She didn't compromise herself.
: Donna
__________
I believe this 'theory' has more to do with the idea that Lizzy moved from a family headed by her more permissive (or negligent) father to one with a stronger (more capable) lead in Darcy. Perhaps she was attracted to him for this quality after being somewhat let down by her father. It makes little difference since they chose each other on their own for good reasons and feelings.
As you may suspect, there was another idea included in the above-mentioned critique from which I quoted, but I neglected to mention it for I consider it repugnant. As you may suspect, it has to do with "...envy", the idea of which I detest and resent. I probably still should not mention it, but there it is. So sorry for any offence.
: Janet
_________
Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 20:48:19:
: I'm a bit confused by all the reference to the music to P&P2.
: Is there a sound track? If so can any of you tell me the name?
: If there is no sound track can you recommend one with at least
: some of the music I've heard on P&P?
: thanks for your help
: Mich
___________________
Pardon the repeat, but the soundtrack is an Angel CD with the bar code number 7243 8 36090 2 4
Joan, too
Posted by Janet on November 05, 1996 at 20:51:58:
: : : : : : proposing in Lambton;
: : : : : I'm inclined to think that it would have been to soon for him to propose again
: : : : : Anna.
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : :
: : : : I agree with you. I don't think that Darcy purposly went to the Inn wanting to propose again. I think that it was just a matter that Lizzie was so near and he needed to be with her. ...
: : : : -Candace
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : We would have missed Darcy taking her hand, such a personal and sentimental thing to do, sigh!! I still wonder why her was in such a hurry to get to her that morning. She had plans with the Gardiner's???
: : : -Dina
: :
: : ___________________
: : I agree with Candace - he just couldn't stay away from her.
: : Anna.
:
: ___________________
: When I first saw the scene where he heads for Lambton the next morning, I thought it was to ask Lizzie and the Gardner's to be his houseguests. Would that have been proper at the time? I read the book so long ago I don't remember. What did it say?
: Tipper
_________
That is an interesting thought, since he so enjoyed seeing Lizzy at Pemberley. I don't know if it would have been considered proper for the party to move in. I couldn't help thinking the same, even when he asked her where she was staying that first day after his swim. Go ahead, just move in right now and be done with it. But then we would have missed the remaining half of the story. The book does not seem to imply what his intentions were for the surprise visit to the inn, so they are left to us to interpret.
: Janet
__________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on November 05, 1996 at 20:59:30:
Joan,
Music
Thanks for that bar code #. I should have put it in the FAQ a long time ago and now I have.
Missing posts
Man, you gotta be quick around here anymore. Three messages were posted while the board was down for about 10 minutes between approx 20:40 and 20:50. Joan maybe some of those are yours and are still in cache? If not I will try to recover them. They would be, I think, #s 5203 5024 5205.
Thanks. Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on November 05, 1996 at 21:03:32:
: Man, you gotta be quick around here anymore. Three messages were posted while the board was down for about 10 minutes between approx 20:40 and 20:50. Joan maybe some of those are yours and are still in cache? If not I will try to recover them. They would be, I think, #s 5203 5024 5205.
: Thanks. Amy
___________________
That would be 5203 5204 5205. I had to shut down and take out a profane post manually.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Janet on November 05, 1996 at 21:14:43:
:
: : : No, but I might eat the cat.
: : : - K
: :
: : ___________________
: : Kali,
: : ROFLOL!!
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
:
: Ann,
: I already asked Hilary this, but what does LOL mean? While I'm asking, what does ROFLOL mean?
: I know I'm a Lamer,
: Kali
_________
I only learned recently from a kind soul here that, if I remember correctly, LOL stands for "laughing out loud", whereas ROFLOL means "rolling on the floor laughing out loud". As you may expect, there are apparently other interpretations as well.__________
Follow Ups:
Posted by AB for Janet on November 05, 1996 at 21:15:25:
Link to recovered post by Janet
AB
Link:
Posted by Janet on November 05, 1996 at 21:17:39:
: :
: : : : No, but I might eat the cat.
: : : : - K
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Kali,
: : : ROFLOL!!
: : : Ann
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Ann,
: : I already asked Hilary this, but what does LOL mean? While I'm asking, what does ROFLOL mean?
: : I know I'm a Lamer,
: : Kali
:
: _________
: I only learned recently from a kind soul here that, if I remember correctly, LOL stands for "laughing out loud", whereas ROFLOL means "rolling on the floor laughing out loud". As you may expect, there are apparently other interpretations as well.
: Janet
P.S. One variation is "look of longing", but I don't know how this is reinterpreted with ROFLOL.
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on November 05, 1996 at 21:32:53:
Joan, too & Janet:
Your messages posted during the down time have been restored.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 21:33:42:
: : We were raised that anyone older than ourselves (meaning we were kids and the other was an adult), wheather it was a family friend, cousin, second cousin, etc. were always referred as Aunt or Uncle.
: : - Candace
: ___________________
: So were we. That is, close friends of parents, older relatives were addressed as Aunt Gonnie and Uncle Ewing. Other adults were always Mr or Mrs or Miss. A young person was never allowed to call an older person by his/her first name.
: However, when referring to or describing them to other people, the correct relationship was used; Aunt Laura was Mom's first cousin, Uncle Charles was Daddy's friend.
: Linda
___________________
Yes, but did these older non-relatives and relatives who were not actual aunts and uncles refer to you as their nieces?
Joan, too
Posted by Stefanie on November 05, 1996 at 21:43:51:
: Sorry, sorry. About the same message twice earlier, that is. I am entirely new to this techmail so escuse the ineptitude (no Collins-length apology forthcoming).
: Perhaps you could "chuse" to tile the images to see them in stereo??
: France (aka Frenetic at this hour)
: ___________________
Don't worry about it. I have been here for about two and a half months and I stilled managed to post the same message 3 times above. Since I have no excuse, I'm going to blame it on my server.
Stefanie
Posted by Amy on November 05, 1996 at 21:45:51:
:
: No, but I might eat the cat.
: - K
___________________
Cute. You must not be as compulsive as some of us -- about this anyway. I suppose you will have to be a little compulsive in other positive ways to succeed in law school. You are going to write one great brief, Kali.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 05, 1996 at 21:46:33:
: : :
: : : : : No, but I might eat the cat.
: : : : : - K
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : : Kali,
: : : : ROFLOL!!
: : : : Ann
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Ann,
: : : I already asked Hilary this, but what does LOL mean? While I'm asking, what does ROFLOL mean?
: : : I know I'm a Lamer,
: : : Kali
: :
: : _________
: : I only learned recently from a kind soul here that, if I remember correctly, LOL stands for "laughing out loud", whereas ROFLOL means "rolling on the floor laughing out loud". As you may expect, there are apparently other interpretations as well.
: : Janet
: P.S. One variation is "look of longing", but I don't know how this is reinterpreted with ROFLOL.
:
: ___________________
___________________
Oh good! I thought it was some kind of unhappy curse or something, and since I'd been getting a lot of them, I was starting to think I was offending the heck out of everyone.
THank you, Ann, for the affirmation, and Janet for the explanation!
- K
Posted by Stefanie on November 05, 1996 at 21:47:57:
: : I know that it is VERY hard not to completely focus on Darcy and Lizzie here, but next time you watch this scene, check out the way that Georgianna looks at her brother after Lizzie has calmed the situation. It is so very shy and sweet. Almost like she is afraid to look at him at first, thinking that he is displeased. She does a double take when she realizes that he is smiling.
: : - Candace
:
: ___________________
: Yes, but don't you also think that she sees at whom he is looking and why - and that is why the double take? :-)
: Jaon, too
___________________
I don't think so. After all, Georgiana must have known that Darcy felt something for Lizzy simply because she had heard so much of her. I don't think that she has been used to hearing her brother speak of another woman in the way he probably spoke of Lizzy.
Stefanie
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