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Posted by Johanne on November 05, 1996 at 15:33:59:
... However it's a long step from this to being in love with Darcy.
: : We then see Darcy looking beatifically at Lizzie (the look). After all he is in paradise! He is at home, with his sister and with the woman who has shown that she does have some feeling towards him after all -- he senses there is definitely hope for him yet.
: : Bernie
: As I've said I think Lizzy is motivated mainly by concern for G at this point - and maybe by a very natural desire to squash Miss Bingley whenever possible. It is also a very encouraging moment for Darcy.
As indicated in the notes and comments of William J. Fitzpatrick, instructor of English at Rutgers, on P&P the book :
The very day of Georgiana's arrival, Darcy and his sister meet Elizabeth at the inn. Being there, the Gardiners quickly conclude that Darcy is very much in love with their niece...Elizabeth (that night) lies awake and examines her feelings about Darcy. She decides that for the proud Darcy to have been so cordial to her and her relatives, after all that she had said at Hunsford to offend him, can indeed be due only to ardent love. Flattered and happy, she admits to admiring him. And she wonders how much she returns his feeling. He comments that the change of Darcy brings a change in Elizabeth, but has she explores her feelings, she does not see that former quickness of opinion that sometimes proved to be prejudice and she will from that moment on make no mistakes. The following morning Lizzy and her aunt are received at Pemb. by the ladies (G, Mss B and Mrs Annesley). When Darcy learns of the ladies visiting, he leaves Mr. Gardiner to his fishing and returns to the house. His effort to bring G and Eliz together is obvious and Mss B, jealous, makes her famous Wickham remark...
I believe quite interesting, particularly in revealing Elizabeth's and the Gardiner's feelings and thoughts. Any comments on this parallel ?
Posted by Johanne on November 05, 1996 at 15:46:49:
: Later, after his guests are gone, Darcy revisits the music room. He reviews the moment in his mind. We can see, though, that he is not sure what is in her mind. In his memory, her expression is ambiguous, not smiling as we had observed it. But it is enough to cause him to rise early and ride off to Lambton hoping to catch Lizzie before she and the Gardiners begin on their planned activities for the day. He needs a reality check. After all, he was badly burned the last time he entertained these intentions...
: But the post comes and reality is suddenly changed. While Lizzie had believed it within her power to bring on a renewal of his addresses if she decided that she wished to, Darcy's "wish of procuring her regard, which she had assured herself of his feeling in Derbyshire, could not in rational expectation survive such a blow as this."
: Joan, too
A much more realistic view compare to my idealistic and romantic rendition of this scene. I do totally agree, it makes a lot more sense
Posted by Linda on November 05, 1996 at 15:53:18:
: : : And That Walk - I also love Darcy's elegant walk through the gallery in the dark with his dogs later in the scene. It's lovely to see how his mind is immersed in thoughts of Lizzy in those solitary moments.
: : : Zimei
I love his walk whereever he walks.
: : : In fact, what a expression, self-confidence coupled by a joyfull smile, we can feel him most and truly content. What has been puzzling me for a while : leaning on the mantelpiece, he remembers foundly Lizzy's look (of love)and then turns his head in a more serious focus gaze. As if he came to realize something with finality of it's own, some kind of a decision, as if to say "this is it, no more room for questions, the answer is this". In the serie I saw, this is immediatly followed by his dressing and preparing for his departure to see Lizzy, taking great care in is allure has if it was a pivotal. Could he have thought of proposing again ?
No, he's not yet ready to renew his addresses. He has decided that he does not want to "conquer this". He wants Elizabeth. He must now show her that he has changed, that he is more deserving of her. He MUST win her heart.
Posted by Johanne on November 05, 1996 at 16:03:12:
: Dear Tay,
: Zimei beat me to it, she is most helpful, thanks Zimei. BTW, have you seen the cfpinup mention in a post above? If not, check it out
Posted by Kali on November 05, 1996 at 16:05:45:
: : : The worst you'll probably see here is some TRULY AWFUL SPELLING, occasional hormonal rantings, occasional lusty lingo (implying lusty longings) and some good-humored teasing (the okay kind).
: : : ::Tommye
: : ___________________
: : ...most of it from Tommye (except for the good-humored teasing - that's all from me!)...just kidding! ;-)
: : Actually, I'm not so far ahead of 14 myself (I'm 21). I feel like such a child.
: : - K
: Where have you been, Kali? I have missed your youthful teasing. I would beg to differ with you on part of the above. You'll not get a lot of truly awful spelling from me, I would hope. You, however, have broken many records in that category. But, enough chiding... I will, indeed, admit to the hormonal rantings, of which you were much aware!
I'm hear, Tommye! Compleat with my aweful speling - but, I'm seeking to make a transforAMTION in that department (that's how I spelled it, right?).
Your young friend,
Kali ; )
Posted by Rebecca on November 05, 1996 at 16:16:53:
: : I take comfort from the fact that Lizzy continued to take liberties with Darcy that amazed Georgiana.
: : Anna
: And this is why Darcy was the perfect match for Lizzy.
: "She began now to comprehend that he was exactly the man, who, in disposition and talents, would most suit her. His understanding and temper, though unlike her own, would have answered all her wishes. It was an union that must have been to the advantage of both; by her ease and liveliness, his mind might have been softened, his manners improved, and from his judgement, information, and knowledge of the world, she must have received benefit of greater importance."
While I don't necessarily disagree with the responses, I nevertheless see the possibility of conflict in Elizabeth and Darcy's future (not serious, they will generally be very happy, I believe). I can see that the personalities might lead to some fights--and Darcy has the habit of command and the law and convention on his side. I can imagine Elizabeth fuming privately to herself that he still has "a selfish disdain for the feelings of others," as a result of winning the verbal debate but losing the overall argument. This will be the result of Elizabeth's being a wife. I love Darcy (and especially since January have been daydreaming about the nice physical form he can now take in the mind!), but I can bet that he was sometimes a difficult husband and Elizabeth forced to take "his judgment, information and knowledge of the world," whether she really wanted to or not. IMHO
Posted by Linda on November 05, 1996 at 16:27:47:
Chapter 45 or Volume 3 Chapter 3
Right after Caroline Bingley's snide comment about the ___shire being removed from Meryton.
..."Not a syllable had ever reached her of Miss Darcy's meditated elopement. To no creature had it been revealed, where secrecy was possible, except to Elizabeth; and from all Bingley's connections her brother was particularly anxious to conceal it from that very wish which Elizabeth had long ago attributed to him, of their becoming hereafter her own. He had certainly formed such a plan, and without meaning that it is probable that it might add something to his lively concern for the welfare of his friend."
Posted by genie on November 05, 1996 at 16:27:58:
: : : Whoa, whoa. There's a book on the Making of Pride and Prejudice? How do you get it and how much does it cost? (If it's not too bad, I'll add it to my Christmas list!!)
: : : Annie
: : ___________________
: : I got my copy from Jane Austen Books (in Chicago), I placed my order by e-mail and received book in a week, it's
: : $21.95 + $3.00 s&p. JA Books' address in FAQ, I think.
: : I too love the book and have read it back and forth many times.
: : Zimei
: Or by snail-mail (sometimes their E-mail gets fowled up):
: Jane Austen Books
: 860 N Lake Shore Dr. Ste 21-J
: Chicago IL 60611-1751
: PH# 312-266-0080
I read somewhere that Borders has it. I don't know if that is a national chain or not. They are in the SFO Bay area anyway. I got copy the other day for my mother for X-mas at an independent book store here in the Bay Area (Printer's Inc) for 21.95 + 10% discount. The price of the book in the U.K. is 10 pounds which is about $15-16 so the US price is certainly a lot higher, but well worth the price IMHO.
Posted by Kali on November 05, 1996 at 16:30:24:
: Mary Wollstonecraft spent most of her life mooning over pissy men.
: : : Mr. Darcy can render me barefoot and pregnant any day
: : : K
: : : P.S. Would you believe that I wrote this whole damn thing out once before, then Netscape crashed, and so I had to retype the freaking message again? I hope somebody reads this, for what it's worth! ;-)
: : _________
: : : Janet
: : P.S. Since my connection also goes dead if I spend too much time in one place, I have to be quick to post online. More later...
: : _________
: Like your turn of phrase there, Kali. I'm glad you persisted because I enjoyed what you wrote and I agree.
: Janet, is it your modem that falls out and loses the connection? If it is, try unplugging all other phone connections in the house. (or are you in an office?)
Cool. The Dagmistress likes me. She really likes me! ; )
Posted by Mich on November 05, 1996 at 16:32:35:
: : : Don't forget A&E starting next week on Classroom at 7am I believe rebroadcast of our favorite miniseries. I've got my VCR working I hope, (no I do not have a set of tapes yet). Please correct me if this info is incorrect. k
: : ___________________
: : Thanks for reminder. I guess that's 4 am california time,yikes!
: : I do have a set of tapes and I'm still planning to get my VCR ready. I'm sure I'm going to wear my current tape out. It's already showing signs and I could never go a day without seeing at least a part of P&P.
: : Mich
: Mich, I thought I was the only one.. I already have a set of tapes and yet I can't wait to record it either. I need another tape to loan out to friends and co-workers so I can infect them with this wonderful malady. DonnaT
I wish I could part with my tape long enough to lend it out.
This how bad I've become. Somehow when trying to order a copy of P&P1 I accidently order the 2 tape version of P&P2. I already have the 6 tape version but I can't bring myself to send back the one order by mistake. I keep telling myself I might need it someday. Do I need to get a grip and send the thing back or what? Oh, both sets were $100.
In great need of professional help for the obsession
Posted by Kali on November 05, 1996 at 16:33:07:
: Well said, Kali! True, Lizzy and Darcy chose each other on the basis of their own judgement, reason and emotions - as equal partners - DESPITE the dictates of society, family and friends. This confirms their mutual committment, respect and love for each other - IN SPITE of all the continuing restriction that a woman does not deserve to be happy if she marries. Bah, humbug to that philosophy. Capital, Capital! So glad we agree.
: : Janet
: P.S. Since my connection also goes dead if I spend too much time in one place, I have to be quick to post online. More later...
Hee hee. Let's all marry Mr. Darcy and live as polygamists in Antarctica!
Posted by Kali on November 05, 1996 at 16:34:44:
: : K
: : P.S. Would you believe that I wrote this whole damn thing out once before, then Netscape crashed, and so I had to retype the freaking message again? I hope somebody reads this, for what it's worth! ;-}
: Well said.
: May I recommend that next time you write a long post you do it on a word processor and copy it over. It's much more reliable and you can save it as you go! ;-)
Thanks from the ever-bumbling,
Posted by Mich on November 05, 1996 at 16:36:43:
: : I'm a bit confused by all the reference to the music to P&P2.
: : Is there a sound track? If so can any of you tell me the name?
: : If there is no sound track can you recommend one with at least
: : some of the music I've heard on P&P?
: : thanks for your help
: : Mich
: I just ordered the soundtrack from a web site that sells CD's. The link is below (http://www.abcds.com/index.html). Do a "New CD" search for Pride and Prejudice. Or, you can call them at 1-800-468-4249.
: The price is $14.59 + $1.95 shipping/handling. When I submitted my order, I received an email message back saying it would be between 7-10 days until I receive it (I can't wait!!).
: Hope this helps!
I just finished ordering it.
Posted by Kali on November 05, 1996 at 16:37:59:
: : : To say that Lizzy is a "sellout" or a father-figure-worshipping Elektra is erroneous and unfair. "Selling out" is a modern feminist notion which has suffered in the inevitable fallout experienced when all "progressive" deconstructions are reconstructed for what they're actually worth. In other words, no philosophy can provide an answer for everyone's true happiness (big surprise, right?). Lots of women (and men!) I know realize that the stress and disorientation that they feel in their lives are a result of working too hard, planning too much, second-guessing too much, and neglecting familial and personal relationships. Worthy relationships with friends, family, and significant others are the matrix of happiness.
: : : What bugs me about the whole Freudian-pseudofeminist argument discussed above is that, applied to Lizzy, it really doesn't fit. How can she be considered a "sellout" when her marriage does not violate her own principles? As Janet stated, Lizzy DOES want to get married, but to the right guy. If she had accepted Mr. Collins, she would have violated her own principles and perhaps general notions of personal integrity. But she didn't - she rejected him ON THE SPOT when she knew she might never get another offer of marriage again. Lizzy might be considered a sellout according to modern principles of personal liberty and integrity not simply by the fact that she partakes of marriage, but because she chooses to marry at all in a society in which we view the institution of marriage as restrictive and the reasons behind marriage as invidious (i.e. economic and other security purposes). If this were the case, than all marriage, at least in that place and era, would be an unethical - if not immoral - propagation of sexism and fascism, which is ridiculous. It makes more sense to say that SOME marriages, then and now, violate modern notions of liberty, but then this would not apply to Lizzy as she marries for the right reasons (love, respect) instead of the wrong ones (goldbrickiness, naivite, foolishness). She is in control of her decision, and is not aspiring to marriage for her own material comfort nor for that of her family. What's more, how can we possibly obligate ancient women to modern notions of "principle"? Heck, even Mary Wollstonecraft spent most of her life mooning over pissy men.
: : : As far as the paternalism argument, specifically, I think the terminology re: marriage to a man more powerful, potent, strong, than any man she's known (i.e. her father) is misleading. Why shouldn't ELizabeth marry a strong man? Why should Mr. Darcy's strengths be a reason for her to reject him? True, Mr. Bennet's word choice regarding the type of man Lizzy would need to marry seem to fit with the paternalism argument - "better" than Lizzy is what he says - but I think the context of his terms suggests otherwise. After all, Mr. Darcy is older and a great deal more experienced in life than Elizabeth is. She is young, and after all, was quick to condemn him unfairly while he, despite his proud front, loved her from close to the beginning.
: : : Despite all of this, the two of them view eachother as equals - they learn from eachother, which sets the tone for their marriage. They demonstrate that they deserve each other (here we go again). Why shouldn't Elizabeth be allowed to marry someone who has proven that he deserves her, she being perhaps the most remarkable young woman in literature? Elizabeth deserves to be happy with the choices she makes. How can she be in violation of herself if she is happily married with someone she respects and who respects her? As far as Darcy being the Saviour and Elizabeth the saved, I disagree. Whoever said that it is Elizabeth who saves Darcy from his own darkish little existence is absolutely right. In fact, they save eachother!
: : : I'm a firm believer that marriage in E and D's situation is one in which two people are the complementary halves of a single positive force. Healthy marriage is a partnership, a state of happiness and fulfillment which transcends sexual politics and defies feminist deconstructionism and Freud's overactive imagination.
: : : Mr. Darcy can render me barefoot and pregnant any day,
: : : K
: : : P.S. Would you believe that I wrote this whole damn thing out once before, then Netscape crashed, and so I had to retype the freaking message again? I hope somebody reads this, for what it's worth! ;-}
: : ___________________
: : [[[ S T A N D I N G . O V A T I O N ]]]
: : I've been trying to get around to something along these lines, but you have done it much better than I would have!
: : AMEN!
: : Joan, too
: I totally agree with what you said, there is no way I could have put it so eloquently, and I echo Joan, too's [[[ S T A N D I N G . O V A T I O N ]]].
Thanks, guys. Your affirmation means a lot to me.
Posted by Saman on November 05, 1996 at 16:50:03:
: : : I just ordered the book, The Making of Pride and Prejudice from Penquin. I could not find it here in the US. Is the book worth it?
: : ___________________
: : Very much so. You'll enjoy it
: : Mich
: I got mine yesterday. I couldn't put it down. I saved the CF chapter for last :-).
When I got my copy I was so tempted to go straight to that cahpter, especially having heard so much about page 98 :) but I made myself read it from cover to cover, and it was worth it!
I've lent it to a friend of mine, and I'm suffering withdrawal :(
I definitely recommend buying it.
Posted by Alicia on November 05, 1996 at 17:08:37:
Okay, this message has nothing to do with P&P2, so please
forgive me for posting it. I just thought it might be of
interest to my fellow Colin fans out there.
I came across the web site for the preview for The English
Patient. I just downloaded the trailer and watched it...
it looks like it's going to be a great movie!
The trailer features brief (REALLY BRIEF) clips of Colin....
but it's definitely worth checking out just to see him looking
gorgeous as always.
The link below is for the Miramax home page.
Posted by Johanne on November 05, 1996 at 17:15:01:
: : : : By so doing, she gave up her freedom, independence and subjected herself to the power of a man who was stronger than herself
: She had independence and freedom that is why she was able to walk to Nfield. Independence is also a feeling and if you feel free you are.
Yes, free and confident enough of her self and of Darcy's love when married :
- Darcy never could receive Wickham but for Elizabeth's sake, he assisted him in his profession.
- Georgiana saw the object of opened pleasantry between Darcy and Lizzy bordering on alarm at her lively, sportive manner of talking to her brother. She saw Elizabeth took liberties with her husband, knowing full well where she stood.
- Only by Elizabeth's persuasion, did he prevailed on to overlook the offence of Lady C.
This is not the portrait of a wife subdued to her husband, is it...
Much the one of a very loving and understanding husband, attentive to his wife whishes
- My beauty you had early withstood, and as for my manners - my behaviour to you was at least always bordering on the uncivil ... did you admire me for my impertinence?
- For the liveliness of your mind, I did.
Posted by Amy on November 05, 1996 at 17:18:05:
: Thank you. It's a good thing I am re-reading the book (after 14 years, ball at Netherfield, will I be as embarrased reading as seeing?) so I can remember what Jane wanted rather than the videos I keep watching.
Dina, I think you may be hit on the only bad thing about this addiction -- that your interpretation centers too wholly around the adaptation. You forget JA's intention.
Posted by Amy on November 05, 1996 at 17:23:02:
: I don't think coffee and muffins has the necessary pizzaz. Too 'here we are again in our cosy armchair'. Maybe a shot of the offering in the coffee? perhaps a champagne breakfast with strawberries and croissants? That should push the right buttons (are you all re-recording?). Starboard definitly; up with the mast, off down the slip-way - happy sailing into the sunset. Good luck!
Agreed. How about Saturday afternoon. Alone in the house. Champagne and popcorn and a self foot massage with some fragrant oil.
Posted by Sarah on November 05, 1996 at 17:36:23:
: "I'd soon rather call her mother a wit".
: There is absolutely no denying its supreme rudeness, but I cannot help just the same loving that statment . . . and the way he says it. Darcy is so casual, leaning against the fireplace, looking down nonchantly (stirring up the fire?) while he gives one of his pert remarks - something to rival even Lizzie's! Don't get me wrong - I love Lizzie dearly, yet just the same, I cannot help but love that remark. It came so fluent, as if it hardly required a second thought! But, oh, how he will soon regret it!
: Any other comments/disagreements?
Um, I'm new here, but, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't Mr. Darcy say, "I'd as soon call her mother a WITCH"? I thought maybe... I LOVED the movie, and as I can see, you did, too....
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