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Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 14:06:46:
: A snippet of information hot of the press.
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Sorry about the last message. There's a fireworks display going on outside my office window and I got distracted!
I'll start again. A snippet of information hot off the press (more like tepid off the press). Crispin Bonham-Carter is to star in a TV drama adaptation of Catherine Cookson's "The Rag Nymph". Filming is due to start this week.
Bernie
PS. A couple of days ago someone posted a message (can't remember who, sorry!) regarding rumours of a Jane Eyre adaptation. Rumours are certainly true. It appears that it will be an ITV/A&E joint venture. Don't know whether it will be a short film -- like Emma -- or a multi-part series.
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Posted by Johanne on November 05, 1996 at 14:09:40:
: ___________________
: Possibly...possibly. It's obvious that he loves to look at her, and not just her fine eyes, either. There's this one moment during the piano scene at Rosings where he gives her the once-over, and it positively sends shivers down my spine. It's not like a purely sexual thing either. It's like he's pleased with the entire package, you know? He likes it that she's so well-made. It's like an architect appreciating the beauty of a perfectly executed design. If it's not his own, he wishes it were. There's a covetousness to it, maybe. It's a proprietary gaze. (Covetousness is awkward, I know. But it's the only word I can think of... My mind is racing as I think about CF's looks. I'd better stop now.)
: -Arnessa.
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Dear Arnessa,
I sometime have to check my french/english Harrap's: covetousness = convoitise which brings me to the following:
- exciter les convoitises = to excit envy
- convoiter (verb) = to lust after, to look lustfully at
do not want to be rude, but is this his (deep down) innermost feeling ?
Johanne
(fellow P&P2 lover's, please bear with me my learning of a vocabulary larger than the usual business english babble)
Follow Ups:
Posted by Johanne on November 05, 1996 at 14:10:11:
: ___________________
: Possibly...possibly. It's obvious that he loves to look at her, and not just her fine eyes, either. There's this one moment during the piano scene at Rosings where he gives her the once-over, and it positively sends shivers down my spine. It's not like a purely sexual thing either. It's like he's pleased with the entire package, you know? He likes it that she's so well-made. It's like an architect appreciating the beauty of a perfectly executed design. If it's not his own, he wishes it were. There's a covetousness to it, maybe. It's a proprietary gaze. (Covetousness is awkward, I know. But it's the only word I can think of... My mind is racing as I think about CF's looks. I'd better stop now.)
: -Arnessa.
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Dear Arnessa,
I sometime have to check my french/english Harrap's: covetousness = convoitise which brings me to the following:
- exciter les convoitises = to excit envy
- convoiter (verb) = to lust after, to look lustfully at
do not want to be rude, but is this his (deep down) innermost feeling ?
Johanne
(fellow P&P2 lover's, please bear with me my learning of a vocabulary larger than the usual business english babble)
Posted by Janet on November 05, 1996 at 14:11:23:
: : : : : :
: : : : : : : : I love you guys! You're very right! While he probably wouldn't discuss it, Darcy is - in addition to being incredibly moral - actually very progressive - and certainly NOT a MCP (male-chauvenist-pig). [Classically] Liberal minds make the most efficient learners and the most understanding companions - isn't Mr. Darcy a god? I wonder if he ever read Wollstonecraft...? well, that's pushing it!
: : : : : : : : - K
: : : : : : :
: : : : : : : __________
: : : : : : : This must have been Austen's push for liberal thinking in her day. Rather ahead of her time, in light of how slowly we're making our way. Darcy would be a stand up man in today's world, listening to and even changing himself for a woman.
: : : : : : : The other males in the entire story line are so weak that Darcy's virtues are exemplified by contrast. There is no need for him to be a snob (per another thread); he naturally stands far apart and above them all.
: : : : : : : Little wonder that it is Lizzy whom he admires and aspires to please. Her standards also rise above the rest. There was somewhat of a challenge there for him, as her 'good opinion was not easily bestowed and therefore more worth the earning'.
: : : : : : : : Janet
: : : : : : : _________
: : : : : :
: : : : : : ___________________
: : : : : :
: : : : : : Yeah, he and Lizzy certainly have the most vital, active minds in the story. THey are intellectual "survivors," submissive to no situation!
: : : : : : THey deserve eachother, as we established in another thread long ago.
: : : : : : - K
: : : : :
: : : : : __________
: : : : : At the risk of being labelled blasphemous, I propose a response to the issue of Lizzy as a survivor. Please don't blame me for this theory as I do not necessarily agree with it in its entirety, but it has occurred to me as another of the unlimited interpretations of this wonderful tale. After all, we are allowed to profess ideas which are not our own, are we not?
: : : : : This theory holds that Lizzy did not stick to her principles, but actually succumbed to the pressures of men and society to marry - and marry well, per the ultimate aspiration. By so doing, she gave up her freedom, independence and subjected herself to the power of a man who was stronger than herself and, for that matter, stronger than her father or any other man she has ever known. This may be give way to the idea that after their marriage, Darcy reverted to his previous proud and powerful persona and tried to take control over her.
: : : : Oh, good grief, This sounds like a feminist point of view
: : : : {Gloria Steinhem}. Don't you think.
: : : : Was there pressure, she would have more freedom because she would have her own money.
: : : : I don't think this theory holds water,because she said in the very beginning that she would liked to get married. I don't think he would revert to his previous ways because he wants to be happy and make everyone around him happy. He was tired of his gloomy lonely life,plus he wanted a little liveliness. Mrs. Reynolds would tell him to wise up or would poppin in the head.
: : : : : The idea that Lizzy was more akin to a son than a daughter is supported by her closeness to her father, rather than to her mother and the other sillier women in the story. (Warning - there may be some Freudian psychology lurking here - hark, you Daggies!) Because of society's dictates and the entail arrangement, she could not maintain her position as heir to the family estate so her recourse was to marry a man who was strong enough for her. As the closest person to an heir (other than Mr. Collins - eek!) the task of saving the family fell to her. In fact, Mr. Collins presented himself as a possible saviour by proposing to her, but alas, he was not a 'real man' from the start (hence his being cast as a clergy?).
: : : : Just because she is admired by her father for her wit she should of been a son. If a woman is strong willed she should have been a man.
: : : : Jane was the eldest, she was going to marry Bingley away.
: : : : Mr. Collins a saviour{gross}.
: : : : : By his own near admission, Mr. Bennet lost control over his family, proved himself to be inept and weak, and consequently forfeited his position as head of the household. He made little effort to assist or guide, especially the younger girls, and failed to provide for them even after his inevitable demise. With all the men incapable of assisting the ladies in their predicament, the fate of the family fell to the strongest (Lizzy) to secure their salvation by succumbing to the strongest man (who else but Darcy). Presumably they would have cared for the rest as they did for Lydia.
: : : : again, Jane married Bingley. Lizzie didn't even have to get married. Bingley would have them all at his house. Poor Bingley.
: : : : Mr. Darcy didn't want Lizzie to know what he did for Lydia anyway. Lizzie could have said no.
: : : : : There is much emphasis on contrasting the strengths and weaknesses in intelligence, wit and moral character of all, and it is clear who comes out on top. Freud may analyze some of this in his own way, but I find it rather repulsive.
: : : : I agree repulsive.
: : : :
: : : : : Considering Jane Austen's life and times, we may understand that some of the views she imparts concerning marriage in terms of societal values vs. independence and being true to one's own ideals must be born of her own. I believe she, too, thought better of a proposal the second time around, but in her case she accepted an advantageous proposal and then rescinded the next morning (in the light of day). As a woman author writing about these issues in a repressive society she was somewhat ahead of her time. In the end, though, it may be said that our Lizzy gave in to the espoused be-all to end-all.
: : : : : While we all love Lizzy, and I daresay who could not adore Darcy, perhaps there is something in this mumbo-jumbo?
: : : : : : Janet
: : : : : _________
:
: ___________________
:
: To say that Lizzy is a "sellout" or a father-figure-worshipping Elektra is erroneous and unfair. "Selling out" is a modern feminist notion which has suffered in the inevitable fallout experienced when all "progressive" deconstructions are reconstructed for what they're actually worth. In other words, no philosophy can provide an answer for everyone's true happiness (big surprise, right?). Lots of women (and men!) I know realize that the stress and disorientation that they feel in their lives are a result of working too hard, planning too much, second-guessing too much, and neglecting familial and personal relationships. Worthy relationships with friends, family, and significant others are the matrix of happiness.
: What bugs me about the whole Freudian-pseudofeminist argument discussed above is that, applied to Lizzy, it really doesn't fit. How can she be considered a "sellout" when her marriage does not violate her own principles? As Janet stated, Lizzy DOES want to get married, but to the right guy. If she had accepted Mr. Collins, she would have violated her own principles and perhaps general notions of personal integrity. But she didn't - she rejected him ON THE SPOT when she knew she might never get another offer of marriage again. Lizzy might be considered a sellout according to modern principles of personal liberty and integrity not simply by the fact that she partakes of marriage, but because she chooses to marry at all in a society in which we view the institution of marriage as restrictive and the reasons behind marriage as invidious (i.e. economic and other security purposes). If this were the case, than all marriage, at least in that place and era, would be an unethical - if not immoral - propagation of sexism and fascism, which is ridiculous. It makes more sense to say that SOME marriages, then and now, violate modern notions of liberty, but then this would not apply to Lizzy as she marries for the right reasons (love, respect) instead of the wrong ones (goldbrickiness, naivite, foolishness). She is in control of her decision, and is not aspiring to marriage for her own material comfort nor for that of her family. What's more, how can we possibly obligate ancient women to modern notions of "principle"? Heck, even Mary Wollstonecraft spent most of her life mooning over pissy men.
: As far as the paternalism argument, specifically, I think the terminology re: marriage to a man more powerful, potent, strong, than any man she's known (i.e. her father) is misleading. Why shouldn't ELizabeth marry a strong man? Why should Mr. Darcy's strengths be a reason for her to reject him? True, Mr. Bennet's word choice regarding the type of man Lizzy would need to marry seem to fit with the paternalism argument - "better" than Lizzy is what he says - but I think the context of his terms suggests otherwise. After all, Mr. Darcy is older and a great deal more experienced in life than Elizabeth is. She is young, and after all, was quick to condemn him unfairly while he, despite his proud front, loved her from close to the beginning.
: Despite all of this, the two of them view eachother as equals - they learn from eachother, which sets the tone for their marriage. They demonstrate that they deserve each other (here we go again). Why shouldn't Elizabeth be allowed to marry someone who has proven that he deserves her, she being perhaps the most remarkable young woman in literature? Elizabeth deserves to be happy with the choices she makes. How can she be in violation of herself if she is happily married with someone she respects and who respects her? As far as Darcy being the Saviour and Elizabeth the saved, I disagree. Whoever said that it is Elizabeth who saves Darcy from his own darkish little existence is absolutely right. In fact, they save eachother!
: I'm a firm believer that marriage in E and D's situation is one in which two people are the complementary halves of a single positive force. Healthy marriage is a partnership, a state of happiness and fulfillment which transcends sexual politics and defies feminist deconstructionism and Freud's overactive imagination.
: Mr. Darcy can render me barefoot and pregnant any day,
: K
: P.S. Would you believe that I wrote this whole damn thing out once before, then Netscape crashed, and so I had to retype the freaking message again? I hope somebody reads this, for what it's worth! ;-}
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Well said, Kali! True, Lizzy and Darcy chose each other on the basis of their own judgement, reason and emotions - as equal partners - DESPITE the dictates of society, family and friends. This confirms their mutual committment, respect and love for each other - IN SPITE of all the continuing restriction that a woman does not deserve to be happy if she marries. Bah, humbug to that philosophy. Capital, Capital! So glad we agree.
: Janet
P.S. Since my connection also goes dead if I spend too much time in one place, I have to be quick to post online. More later...
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Follow Ups:
Posted by Leslie on November 05, 1996 at 14:18:59:
: : what exactly is the Austen-L?
: : : Hello, everyone. I have just been kicked off the Austen-L ___________________
: :
Posted by Hilary on November 05, 1996 at 14:27:17:
Just out of curiosity are your friends of an age?
: : Hilary
:
: They approach matters of the heart with the same zeal and intellectualism as everything else in their lives....thus the Rules seminars. It remains to be seen whether they get their money's worth.
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Hmmm, 60's feminists perchance? I do not particularly like their way of getting a husband, but I wish them happiness. I've been out of that game for 20+ years, and it must be difficult, especially if you've lost your rose coloured glasses.
Hilary
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 14:32:57:
:
: : : Uhum. Lydia is fifteen.
: : : Tay.
: :
: : ___________________
: : She was fifteen when she almost eloped with Wickham--the previous summer.
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
: Lydia, the previous summner ? I'm sure you're thinking of Georgiana
: Johanne
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I believe you are right.
In an attept to sort this little quandry once and for all, we know that Lydia is sixteen when she marries Wickham (31st August). Now in the film Lizzie corrects Wickham and tells him Lydia is 15 not 16. This is after Lizzie gets back from Rosings (about the third week in May) and before Wickham and Co. depart for Brighton (June sometime). Therefore Lydia's sixteenth birthday must have been between the middle of June and the end of August.
I hope this makes sense.
Bernie
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Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 14:33:36:
:
: : : Uhum. Lydia is fifteen.
: : : Tay.
: :
: : ___________________
: : She was fifteen when she almost eloped with Wickham--the previous summer.
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
: Lydia, the previous summner ? I'm sure you're thinking of Georgiana
: Johanne
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I believe you are right.
In an attept to sort this little quandry once and for all, we know that Lydia is sixteen when she marries Wickham (31st August). Now in the film Lizzie corrects Wickham and tells him Lydia is 15 not 16. This is after Lizzie gets back from Rosings (about the third week in May) and before Wickham and Co. depart for Brighton (June sometime). Therefore Lydia's sixteenth birthday must have been between the middle of June and the end of August.
I hope this makes sense.
Bernie
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Posted by Johanne on November 05, 1996 at 14:37:06:
: They're both at http://www.iupui.edu/~rogersc/images/cfpinup.jpg
: and
: http://www.iupui.edu/~rogersc/images/cfpp9.jpg
: Pleasant viewing, France
:
: ___________________
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Bless you, sweet France, you've made my day : incomparable, cfpinup printed and beside my pc. Not easily in awe, but this ...
Johanne de Mtl
Posted by Hilary on November 05, 1996 at 14:47:22:
Mary Wollstonecraft spent most of her life mooning over pissy men.
: : Mr. Darcy can render me barefoot and pregnant any day
: : K
: : P.S. Would you believe that I wrote this whole damn thing out once before, then Netscape crashed, and so I had to retype the freaking message again? I hope somebody reads this, for what it's worth! ;-)
: _________
: : Janet
: P.S. Since my connection also goes dead if I spend too much time in one place, I have to be quick to post online. More later...
: _________
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Like your turn of phrase there, Kali. I'm glad you persisted because I enjoyed what you wrote and I agree.
Janet, is it your modem that falls out and loses the connection? If it is, try unplugging all other phone connections in the house. (or are you in an office?)
Hilary
Follow Ups:
Posted by Paula on November 05, 1996 at 14:55:22:
Mrs. Bennet is the one constantly worried about what will happen to her five daughters if they are not married by the time Mr. Bennet dies. Mr. Bennet does not place as much emphasis on what happens to the girls and takes little interests in their activities.
________________
Though Mr. Bennet doesn't worry *out loud* about his daughters' futures, he's still interested in them.
In contrast to his wife, who would marry off Lizzy to the odious Collins in exchange for financial security, Mr. Bennet encourages the girls to hold out for happiness in marriage as opposed to economic gain.
Lizzy seems to share his principles; she'd rather die a poor old maid than be married to someone she didn't love. She's not after Darcy for his money, which is probably one reason why he respects her.
That's the irony of the story: Lizzy, who doesn't care about marrying for money, gets the richest guy in the end.
Post your term paper here when you're done -- I would love to read it!!
Paula
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Posted by Johanne on November 05, 1996 at 14:58:06:
: : And That Walk - I also love Darcy's elegant walk through the gallery in the dark with his dogs later in the scene. It's lovely to see how his mind is immersed in thoughts of Lizzy in those solitary moments.
: : Zimei
:
: : In fact, what a expression, self-confidence coupled by a joyfull smile, we can feel him most and truly content. What has been puzzling me for a while : leaning on the mantelpiece, he remembers foundly Lizzy's look (of love)and then turns his head in a more serious focus gaze. As if he came to realize something with finality of it's own, some kind of a decision, as if to say "this is it, no more room for questions, the answer is this". In the serie I saw, this is immediatly followed by his dressing and preparing for his departure to see Lizzy, taking great care in is allure has if it was a pivotal. Could he have thought of proposing again ?
Follow Ups:
Posted by Dina on November 05, 1996 at 14:58:13:
: :
:
: She falls in love with him just as she thinks she has lost him forever.
: Ann
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Thank you. It's a good thing I am re-reading the book (after 14 years, ball at Netherfield, will I be as embarrased reading as seeing?) so I can remember what Jane wanted rather than the videos I keep watching.
Dina
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Posted by Rosie on November 05, 1996 at 15:00:04:
O.K. Who won the CONTEST??? I know I didn't and they never sent
me the list I requested. I'm dying with curiosity !! I only wanted the
video.
Posted by Annie on November 05, 1996 at 15:00:32:
: Mrs. Bennet is the one constantly worried about what will happen to her five daughters if they are not married by the time Mr. Bennet dies. Mr. Bennet does not place as much emphasis on what happens to the girls and takes little interests in their activities.
: ________________
: Though Mr. Bennet doesn't worry *out loud* about his daughters' futures, he's still interested in them.
: In contrast to his wife, who would marry off Lizzy to the odious Collins in exchange for financial security, Mr. Bennet encourages the girls to hold out for happiness in marriage as opposed to economic gain.
: Lizzy seems to share his principles; she'd rather die a poor old maid than be married to someone she didn't love. She's not after Darcy for his money, which is probably one reason why he respects her.
: That's the irony of the story: Lizzy, who doesn't care about marrying for money, gets the richest guy in the end.
: Post your term paper here when you're done -- I would love to read it!!
: Paula
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Okay, but it may be a while. It's not due until the end of April!!!
Annie
Posted by Linda on November 05, 1996 at 15:04:49:
: : : : The second nit is that Jane, in her first letter, refers to the Gardiner children as her nieces and nephews. Aren't they her cousins??
: : : : Linda
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : The cousin thing bothered me for awhile too. I just figured that since there was such a large age difference, back then, they were more like nieces and nephews than cousins.
: : : Stefanie
: :
: : ___________________
: : This one really bothers me, too! It really makes no sense any way that I can think of. I have cousins who have neices and nephews who are older than they are - but it doesn't change the relationship. They don't become siblings or cousins just because they are comtemporaries. Where is the Mysterious H.C. lately? Maybe he knows of a resource to explain this?
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
:
: We were raised that anyone older than ourselves (meaning we were kids and the other was an adult), wheather it was a family friend, cousin, second cousin, etc. were always referred as Aunt or Uncle.
: - Candace
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So were we. That is, close friends of parents, older relatives were addressed as Aunt Gonnie and Uncle Ewing. Other adults were always Mr or Mrs or Miss. A young person was never allowed to call an older person by his/her first name.
However, when referring to or describing them to other people, the correct relationship was used; Aunt Laura was Mom's first cousin, Uncle Charles was Daddy's friend.
Linda
Follow Ups:
Posted by Linda on November 05, 1996 at 15:12:45:
: :
: : : ___________________
: : : I don't mean to dwell, but here is the definition of a snob.
: : : I'm dwelling,ok One who is convinced of and flaunts his social superiority. I was a little harsh he was convinced, until Lizzie changed his mind. I don't think he flaunted it.
: : : He was an adorable, handsome,very little snob. Now I feel better.
: : : ciao Donna
: :
: : ___________________
: : Now, Caroline Bingley and Louisa Hurst a truly snobs of the first degree! Wouldn't you agree ?
: : Bernie
: :
: : ___________________
:
: ___________________
:
: Yes, in the first degree.
: ciao Donna
___________________
As much as we love him, we must admit that Mr. Darcy, too, was a snob until Elizabeth gave him the rude awakening.
Linda
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 15:14:33:
: In an attept to sort this little quandry once and for all, we know that Lydia is sixteen when she marries Wickham (31st August). Now in the film Lizzie corrects Wickham and tells him Lydia is 15 not 16. This is after Lizzie gets back from Rosings (about the third week in May) and before Wickham and Co. depart for Brighton (June sometime). Therefore Lydia's sixteenth birthday must have been between the middle of June and the end of August.
: I hope this makes sense.
: Bernie
:
: ___________________
___________________
A few points of reference from the book (for corroboration purposes). Vol. 1 Chapter IX . "Lydia was a stout, well-grown girl of fifteen, with a fine complexion and good humoured contenance..." ( Mrs. B, Kitty & Lydia visit Netherfield -- 14th November).
Vol. 2 Chapter XVIII . "Her character will be fixed, and she will, at sixteen, be the most determined flirt that ever made herself and her family ridiculous..." (Lizzie entreating her father not to allow Lydia to go to Brighton -- late June ?).
So between the book and P&P2 it appears that Lydia's birthday is mid June.
Bernie
Posted by Cheryl on November 05, 1996 at 15:16:20:
: Absolutely, and if she is silly enough to agree to this scheme, then on her head be the consequences.
: Bernie
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But, in Lydia's defense, I must say that *this* is not the scheme she agreed to- she did believe that he was going to marry her. Although not toher credit is her statement that it didn't matter exactly when it would take place, but it was clearly her intention and clearly *not* Wickham's. It does make me wonder though, would she still have gone with him even if he didn't promise to marry her? She is stupid, but is she irretrievably stupid?
Cheryl
Posted by Hilary on November 05, 1996 at 15:31:45:
: : : Innovations in our viewing habits...the perfect suggestion. For this rebroadcast,we do want to push the right buttons, after all. Do you think an alcoholic libation might be in order? After reading Eric in another thread, I think port might be too much......I lean to starboard, myself.
: : Grace
:
: ___________________
:
: Yes, Grace coffee and a English muffin is the only way to go at 7:00a.m. Hope I am not excepting to much from the missing scenes.
: Thanks Donna
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I don't think coffee and muffins has the necessary pizzaz. Too 'here we are again in our cosy armchair'. Maybe a shot of the offering in the coffee? perhaps a champagne breakfast with strawberries and croissants? That should push the right buttons (are you all re-recording?). Starboard definitly; up with the mast, off down the slip-way - happy sailing into the sunset. Good luck!
Hilary
Follow Ups:
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