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Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 02:54:53:
: I know that it is VERY hard not to completely focus on Darcy and Lizzie here, but next time you watch this scene, check out the way that Georgianna looks at her brother after Lizzie has calmed the situation. It is so very shy and sweet. Almost like she is afraid to look at him at first, thinking that he is displeased. She does a double take when she realizes that he is smiling.
: - Candace
___________________
Yes, but don't you also think that she sees at whom he is looking and why - and that is why the double take? :-)
Jaon, too
Posted by Kali on November 05, 1996 at 02:56:30:
: : : : :
: : : : : : : I love you guys! You're very right! While he probably wouldn't discuss it, Darcy is - in addition to being incredibly moral - actually very progressive - and certainly NOT a MCP (male-chauvenist-pig). [Classically] Liberal minds make the most efficient learners and the most understanding companions - isn't Mr. Darcy a god? I wonder if he ever read Wollstonecraft...? well, that's pushing it!
: : : : : : : - K
: : : : : :
: : : : : : __________
: : : : : : This must have been Austen's push for liberal thinking in her day. Rather ahead of her time, in light of how slowly we're making our way. Darcy would be a stand up man in today's world, listening to and even changing himself for a woman.
: : : : : : The other males in the entire story line are so weak that Darcy's virtues are exemplified by contrast. There is no need for him to be a snob (per another thread); he naturally stands far apart and above them all.
: : : : : : Little wonder that it is Lizzy whom he admires and aspires to please. Her standards also rise above the rest. There was somewhat of a challenge there for him, as her 'good opinion was not easily bestowed and therefore more worth the earning'.
: : : : : : : Janet
: : : : : : _________
: : : : :
: : : : : ___________________
: : : : :
: : : : : Yeah, he and Lizzy certainly have the most vital, active minds in the story. THey are intellectual "survivors," submissive to no situation!
: : : : : THey deserve eachother, as we established in another thread long ago.
: : : : : - K
: : : :
: : : : __________
: : : : At the risk of being labelled blasphemous, I propose a response to the issue of Lizzy as a survivor. Please don't blame me for this theory as I do not necessarily agree with it in its entirety, but it has occurred to me as another of the unlimited interpretations of this wonderful tale. After all, we are allowed to profess ideas which are not our own, are we not?
: : : : This theory holds that Lizzy did not stick to her principles, but actually succumbed to the pressures of men and society to marry - and marry well, per the ultimate aspiration. By so doing, she gave up her freedom, independence and subjected herself to the power of a man who was stronger than herself and, for that matter, stronger than her father or any other man she has ever known. This may be give way to the idea that after their marriage, Darcy reverted to his previous proud and powerful persona and tried to take control over her.
: : : Oh, good grief, This sounds like a feminist point of view
: : : {Gloria Steinhem}. Don't you think.
: : : Was there pressure, she would have more freedom because she would have her own money.
: : : I don't think this theory holds water,because she said in the very beginning that she would liked to get married. I don't think he would revert to his previous ways because he wants to be happy and make everyone around him happy. He was tired of his gloomy lonely life,plus he wanted a little liveliness. Mrs. Reynolds would tell him to wise up or would poppin in the head.
: : : : The idea that Lizzy was more akin to a son than a daughter is supported by her closeness to her father, rather than to her mother and the other sillier women in the story. (Warning - there may be some Freudian psychology lurking here - hark, you Daggies!) Because of society's dictates and the entail arrangement, she could not maintain her position as heir to the family estate so her recourse was to marry a man who was strong enough for her. As the closest person to an heir (other than Mr. Collins - eek!) the task of saving the family fell to her. In fact, Mr. Collins presented himself as a possible saviour by proposing to her, but alas, he was not a 'real man' from the start (hence his being cast as a clergy?).
: : : Just because she is admired by her father for her wit she should of been a son. If a woman is strong willed she should have been a man.
: : : Jane was the eldest, she was going to marry Bingley away.
: : : Mr. Collins a saviour{gross}.
: : : : By his own near admission, Mr. Bennet lost control over his family, proved himself to be inept and weak, and consequently forfeited his position as head of the household. He made little effort to assist or guide, especially the younger girls, and failed to provide for them even after his inevitable demise. With all the men incapable of assisting the ladies in their predicament, the fate of the family fell to the strongest (Lizzy) to secure their salvation by succumbing to the strongest man (who else but Darcy). Presumably they would have cared for the rest as they did for Lydia.
: : : again, Jane married Bingley. Lizzie didn't even have to get married. Bingley would have them all at his house. Poor Bingley.
: : : Mr. Darcy didn't want Lizzie to know what he did for Lydia anyway. Lizzie could have said no.
: : : : There is much emphasis on contrasting the strengths and weaknesses in intelligence, wit and moral character of all, and it is clear who comes out on top. Freud may analyze some of this in his own way, but I find it rather repulsive.
: : : I agree repulsive.
: : :
: : : : Considering Jane Austen's life and times, we may understand that some of the views she imparts concerning marriage in terms of societal values vs. independence and being true to one's own ideals must be born of her own. I believe she, too, thought better of a proposal the second time around, but in her case she accepted an advantageous proposal and then rescinded the next morning (in the light of day). As a woman author writing about these issues in a repressive society she was somewhat ahead of her time. In the end, though, it may be said that our Lizzy gave in to the espoused be-all to end-all.
: : : : While we all love Lizzy, and I daresay who could not adore Darcy, perhaps there is something in this mumbo-jumbo?
: : : : : Janet
: : : : _________
___________________
To say that Lizzy is a "sellout" or a father-figure-worshipping Elektra is erroneous and unfair. "Selling out" is a modern feminist notion which has suffered in the inevitable fallout experienced when all "progressive" deconstructions are reconstructed for what they're actually worth. In other words, no philosophy can provide an answer for everyone's true happiness (big surprise, right?). Lots of women (and men!) I know realize that the stress and disorientation that they feel in their lives are a result of working too hard, planning too much, second-guessing too much, and neglecting familial and personal relationships. Worthy relationships with friends, family, and significant others are the matrix of happiness.
What bugs me about the whole Freudian-pseudofeminist argument discussed above is that, applied to Lizzy, it really doesn't fit. How can she be considered a "sellout" when her marriage does not violate her own principles? As Janet stated, Lizzy DOES want to get married, but to the right guy. If she had accepted Mr. Collins, she would have violated her own principles and perhaps general notions of personal integrity. But she didn't - she rejected him ON THE SPOT when she knew she might never get another offer of marriage again. Lizzy might be considered a sellout according to modern principles of personal liberty and integrity not simply by the fact that she partakes of marriage, but because she chooses to marry at all in a society in which we view the institution of marriage as restrictive and the reasons behind marriage as invidious (i.e. economic and other security purposes). If this were the case, than all marriage, at least in that place and era, would be an unethical - if not immoral - propagation of sexism and fascism, which is ridiculous. It makes more sense to say that SOME marriages, then and now, violate modern notions of liberty, but then this would not apply to Lizzy as she marries for the right reasons (love, respect) instead of the wrong ones (goldbrickiness, naivite, foolishness). She is in control of her decision, and is not aspiring to marriage for her own material comfort nor for that of her family. What's more, how can we possibly obligate ancient women to modern notions of "principle"? Heck, even Mary Wollstonecraft spent most of her life mooning over pissy men.
As far as the paternalism argument, specifically, I think the terminology re: marriage to a man more powerful, potent, strong, than any man she's known (i.e. her father) is misleading. Why shouldn't ELizabeth marry a strong man? Why should Mr. Darcy's strengths be a reason for her to reject him? True, Mr. Bennet's word choice regarding the type of man Lizzy would need to marry seem to fit with the paternalism argument - "better" than Lizzy is what he says - but I think the context of his terms suggests otherwise. After all, Mr. Darcy is older and a great deal more experienced in life than Elizabeth is. She is young, and after all, was quick to condemn him unfairly while he, despite his proud front, loved her from close to the beginning.
Despite all of this, the two of them view eachother as equals - they learn from eachother, which sets the tone for their marriage. They demonstrate that they deserve each other (here we go again). Why shouldn't Elizabeth be allowed to marry someone who has proven that he deserves her, she being perhaps the most remarkable young woman in literature? Elizabeth deserves to be happy with the choices she makes. How can she be in violation of herself if she is happily married with someone she respects and who respects her? As far as Darcy being the Saviour and Elizabeth the saved, I disagree. Whoever said that it is Elizabeth who saves Darcy from his own darkish little existence is absolutely right. In fact, they save eachother!
I'm a firm believer that marriage in E and D's situation is one in which two people are the complementary halves of a single positive force. Healthy marriage is a partnership, a state of happiness and fulfillment which transcends sexual politics and defies feminist deconstructionism and Freud's overactive imagination.
Mr. Darcy can render me barefoot and pregnant any day,
K
P.S. Would you believe that I wrote this whole damn thing out once before, then Netscape crashed, and so I had to retype the freaking message again? I hope somebody reads this, for what it's worth! ;-}
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 02:58:34:
: (he is left talking)
: End of scene.
___________________
Score another one for A.A> Milne! [cheshire grin]
Joan, too
Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 03:03:02:
: This is a phenomenon not unlike the "our song" thing. I thought I was the only one who got nostalgic about film soundtracks.
: - K
___________________
Think again! This one in particular - even the tiniest shred of it buried deep inside an A&E promo instantly grabs my attention.
Joan, too
Posted by DonnaT on November 05, 1996 at 03:15:13:
: : Don't forget A&E starting next week on Classroom at 7am I believe rebroadcast of our favorite miniseries. I've got my VCR working I hope, (no I do not have a set of tapes yet). Please correct me if this info is incorrect. k
:
: ___________________
: Thanks for reminder. I guess that's 4 am california time,yikes!
: I do have a set of tapes and I'm still planning to get my VCR ready. I'm sure I'm going to wear my current tape out. It's already showing signs and I could never go a day without seeing at least a part of P&P.
: Mich
_________________
Mich, I thought I was the only one.. I already have a set of tapes and yet I can't wait to record it either. I need another tape to loan out to friends and co-workers so I can infect them with this wonderful malady. DonnaT
Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 03:37:59:
: To say that Lizzy is a "sellout" or a father-figure-worshipping Elektra is erroneous and unfair. "Selling out" is a modern feminist notion which has suffered in the inevitable fallout experienced when all "progressive" deconstructions are reconstructed for what they're actually worth. In other words, no philosophy can provide an answer for everyone's true happiness (big surprise, right?). Lots of women (and men!) I know realize that the stress and disorientation that they feel in their lives are a result of working too hard, planning too much, second-guessing too much, and neglecting familial and personal relationships. Worthy relationships with friends, family, and significant others are the matrix of happiness.
: What bugs me about the whole Freudian-pseudofeminist argument discussed above is that, applied to Lizzy, it really doesn't fit. How can she be considered a "sellout" when her marriage does not violate her own principles? As Janet stated, Lizzy DOES want to get married, but to the right guy. If she had accepted Mr. Collins, she would have violated her own principles and perhaps general notions of personal integrity. But she didn't - she rejected him ON THE SPOT when she knew she might never get another offer of marriage again. Lizzy might be considered a sellout according to modern principles of personal liberty and integrity not simply by the fact that she partakes of marriage, but because she chooses to marry at all in a society in which we view the institution of marriage as restrictive and the reasons behind marriage as invidious (i.e. economic and other security purposes). If this were the case, than all marriage, at least in that place and era, would be an unethical - if not immoral - propagation of sexism and fascism, which is ridiculous. It makes more sense to say that SOME marriages, then and now, violate modern notions of liberty, but then this would not apply to Lizzy as she marries for the right reasons (love, respect) instead of the wrong ones (goldbrickiness, naivite, foolishness). She is in control of her decision, and is not aspiring to marriage for her own material comfort nor for that of her family. What's more, how can we possibly obligate ancient women to modern notions of "principle"? Heck, even Mary Wollstonecraft spent most of her life mooning over pissy men.
: As far as the paternalism argument, specifically, I think the terminology re: marriage to a man more powerful, potent, strong, than any man she's known (i.e. her father) is misleading. Why shouldn't ELizabeth marry a strong man? Why should Mr. Darcy's strengths be a reason for her to reject him? True, Mr. Bennet's word choice regarding the type of man Lizzy would need to marry seem to fit with the paternalism argument - "better" than Lizzy is what he says - but I think the context of his terms suggests otherwise. After all, Mr. Darcy is older and a great deal more experienced in life than Elizabeth is. She is young, and after all, was quick to condemn him unfairly while he, despite his proud front, loved her from close to the beginning.
: Despite all of this, the two of them view eachother as equals - they learn from eachother, which sets the tone for their marriage. They demonstrate that they deserve each other (here we go again). Why shouldn't Elizabeth be allowed to marry someone who has proven that he deserves her, she being perhaps the most remarkable young woman in literature? Elizabeth deserves to be happy with the choices she makes. How can she be in violation of herself if she is happily married with someone she respects and who respects her? As far as Darcy being the Saviour and Elizabeth the saved, I disagree. Whoever said that it is Elizabeth who saves Darcy from his own darkish little existence is absolutely right. In fact, they save eachother!
: I'm a firm believer that marriage in E and D's situation is one in which two people are the complementary halves of a single positive force. Healthy marriage is a partnership, a state of happiness and fulfillment which transcends sexual politics and defies feminist deconstructionism and Freud's overactive imagination.
: Mr. Darcy can render me barefoot and pregnant any day,
: K
: P.S. Would you believe that I wrote this whole damn thing out once before, then Netscape crashed, and so I had to retype the freaking message again? I hope somebody reads this, for what it's worth! ;-}
___________________
[[[ S T A N D I N G . O V A T I O N ]]]
I've been trying to get around to something along these lines, but you have done it much better than I would have!
AMEN!
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 04:20:33:
: I think the Netherfield dog (whether Dalmation or Great Dane) was probably Bingley's dog - why would Darcy travel with his dogs; he'd probably leave them at Pemberley.
___________________
I saw this clip again last night and noticed that when Darcy, Bingley and Mr. Hurst go out shooting, there are 2 or 3 spaniels (also black and white) which are obviously there to pick up the game. These dogs, which must belong to Bingley, are much smaller and have a longer coat than the dog Lizzie plays with. I agree with Ann2, I thik that the big dog is Darcy's dog.
Bernie
___________________
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 04:24:01:
: Lost this post once, but I shall try again....
: I only remember 4-5 dogs.
: Netherfield dog is a Harlequin Great Dane. Large breed dog, square head and droopy jowls which allow the saliva to drip all over your shoes. Probably why Jennifer Ehle was bouncing around so much!!
: Pemb dogs in gallery: Thin one is a Whippet the other I think was an English Springer Spaniel.
: Pemberly dogs out front when Lizzy left after dinner: One was a great dane I think, the other I am not sure.
: Nancy R.
___________________
I may well be putting a spanner in the works, but the thin one may well be a greyhound. I have vague recollections that it is too large to be a whippet. I'll have to check though, tonight!
Bernie
___________________
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 04:30:37:
: Everyone,
: I spent part of the weekend immersed in the second-most pleasurable
: mini-series: Middlemarch (I am sure you can guess what the first
: most pleasurable mini-series is). Either the UK, the BBC, or the
: London theatrical scene is a very small crew -- Middlemarch is
: another indelible link in our chain of personages. Robert Hardy
: (Sir John from S&S, General Tilney from NA), Elizabeth Spriggs
: (Mrs. Jennings from S&S), Jonathan Firth, and screenwriter Andrew
: Davies. All these and likely more in the series to link.
: This was my second viewing, the first on videotape, and what
: a marvelous series it is! It, like P&P2, grows on repeated viewings,
: a sure sign of lasting strength. I should very much like to talk about
: it here on the BB. I think it has much to associate it with P&P2.
: Perhaps we could schedule a virtual viewing together once the Read and
: View business of P&P2 is all wrapped up? I am sure many of us have already
: seen it, but I think it might prove very amusing to all watch it 'together'.
: Cordially,
: Raphael
___________________
Raphael,
Have you also seen the recent BBC adaptation of Martin Chuzzlewit? It also stars Elizabeth Spriggs and Julia Sawalha, amongst others.
Bernie
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 04:53:49:
: By the way she wasn't really playing the piano. Carl Davis played all the pieces in the film.
: : Bernie
: : ___________________
:
: ___________________
: I'd assume it was Ehle singing also, but I think the actors played the fortepianos and the music we hear is Carl Davis's playing--it was dubbed over the actors' playing, according to "The Making of P&P."
That's what I meant to say! It just didn't come out quite right. As an aside, did you notice that they never show Lizzie fingering the keyboard, whereas Georgiana and Mary, especially, are shown actually playing the piano.
There's a funny anecdote about the actress who played Mary Bennet, who said she practiced so much she nearly drove her fiance mad.
Yes and she wasn't sure whether to be pleased or disappointed that the piano was muted in the scenes.
Bernie
___________________
___________________
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 05:00:14:
: : : I was eating lunch yesterday at Au Bon Pain, a fast food sandwich place, when I suddenly felt very tranquil, despite the fact that my 2-year old lunch companion is not especially genteel. Then it hit me---on the piped-in music, Voi Che Sapete was playing---the song Lizzie sings at Pemberley. The Look! Sigh. I felt momentarily transported. I wish I'd had some BB friends there to share the moment---and I suspect you would all have been less likely than my little girl to spill chili on me. Coincidence, or is everyone taking advantage of Austen-mania? If so: more, please.
: : : Jane A.
: :
: : ___________________
: : Along a similar vein; when someone posted "The Look" picture, I could hear running through my mind Voi Che Sapete! Will I ever be able to hear it again and *not* think of Darcy?
: : Cheryl
:
: ___________________
: Last summer I was in Harrod's book dept. when I heard the music from P&P2 playing quietly in the background. Needless to say, I couldn't leave the dept. till it was finished. I now have the CD and play it in my car all the time.
: Inko
___________________
I have my CD playing continuously, while I'm working at the computer. (I'm quite sociable about it though, I have earphones plugged into the computer, so that I don't have to inflict my obsession on any unsuspecting passersby!)
Bernie
___________________
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 05:03:15:
: Colin wasn't at the presentation ceremony, but he gave a very witty acceptance speech from a poolside in LA.
: : Bernie
:
: ___________________
: Bernie, I have to ask: was he wet?
: Hilary
___________________
Hilary,
LOL! Unfortunately, he wasn't!
Bernie
___________________
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 05:09:47:
: : He must have concluded somehow that Darcy was succuming to the charms of Elizabeth. But he had not communication with Darcy to really be sure. By marrying Lydia he felt he may have a chance to form a lasting tie to the Darcy money. But if D & E never married he would be strapped with one very tormenting and silly wife. Or is he just an addicted seducer?
: : : : : ___________________
: : ...Lydia very likely invited herself along. It would appear that Wickham just took advantage of her forwardness to have a fling. Wickham told Darcy that he had never intended to marry Lydia.
: : : : : Joan, too
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : Why Lydia? My perspective on that was, as far as Wickham went, that yes, he did have to leave the regiment, but that he asked Lydia to go with him, not the other way around. When he had to leave, he decided that he wanted some female company to come along with him. The obvious choice was Lydia. I don't think that he knew exactly where things stood with Elizabeth and Darcy. I think he sensed that Elizabeth's attitude toward Darcy had changed, but remember, only Jane knew that Darcy had proposed while Elizabeth stayed with the Collins'. Wickham couldn't know that Darcy would be willing to save Lydia in order to marry Elizabeth.
: : : Annie
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : I think he did it partially, if not subconsciously, to get back at Lizzy ( Do you think Lydia could zip her lip about a chance to show up her older sisters? And do you think Wickham would resist a chance to stick it to someone who no longer trusted his world?) for brushing him off, and partially because he couldn't resist a romp with a willing victim. The guy is obviously out of control, with his drinking, gambling, debts, and past sexual indiscretions. The situation presented itself, so he went with it.
: : I'm not sure I agree with the idea that he did it to get back at Darcy, or to link himself to the Darcy fortune (he wasn't planning on marrying Lydia!), but he may have been thinking that Darcy would try to bribe him into marrying Lydia if he ran off with her. Still, how would he know that Darcy was that smitten by Elizabeth? I agree with Annie here. From Lizzy's behaviour, he could deduce that she had softened towards Darcy, but how can he know the extent of Darcy's own feelings for Elizabeth?
: : - K
:
: ___________________
:
: I've know men like Wickham (I'm so sorry to say). I really feel that his motives were very simple. He needed to hide out from his creditors, for who knows how long. Lydia appeared to be a "fun date". Why not take her with him, and dump her when it was time to move on.
: - Candace
___________________
Absolutely, and if she is silly enough to agree to this scheme, then on her head be the consequences.
Bernie
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 05:12:55:
: ___________________
: Dear Bernie, will you be kind enough to share with us a little bit what sort of witty things Colin said in his speech ?
: much obliged,
: Zimei
___________________
Unfortunately, I was gawping at Colin too much to be paying much attention to what he was saying! I'll rack my poor beleaguered brain though, and try and remember what he said.
Bernie
___________________
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 05:38:43:
: : : Someone should have told that to Mr. and Mrs. Bennet where it regards Lydia!!!!
: : : Annie
: :
: : ___________________
: : It does not appear that Lydia needed too much encouragement to go to bed!
: : Cheryl
:
: ___________________
:
: Excellent Reponse, Cheryl!
: - Candace
___________________
Are we bordering on another Daggy thread ?
___________________
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 05:46:14:
: : : : Don't forget A&E starting next week on Classroom at 7am I believe rebroadcast of our favorite miniseries. I've got my VCR working I hope, (no I do not have a set of tapes yet). Please correct me if this info is incorrect. k
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : :
: : : Can't wait. I just bought my blank tapes today.:)
: :
: : ___________________
: : I am so excited that A&E will be showing P&P again! It comes on at 6:00 am here so I will have to plug my headphones into the T.V. so as not to wake my roommate up. Hey, I'll do just about anything to watch this movie!! Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone here at school that is willing to get up that early to view it with me. Oh well, that is life I guess. Thanks for doing this page so Austen addicts like me can find and talk to other addicts that actually understand what the heck I'm talking about! --Sarah
:
: ___________________
:
: It will be shown at 4:00am here in California. Since the timer doesn't work on our VCR, I will have to set my alarm to get up to hit the record button. I am determined to finally see those "missing scenes"!
: - Candace
___________________
You guys are so lucky that P&P 2 is repeated by A&E regularly. That's the one thing about the BBC, then don't tend to repeat broadcasts of these series. Just as well the videos are so much cheaper over here!
Bernie
___________________
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 07:20:40:
: : : : : : : I think Lizzie should hire Hannah to work at Pemberly. Silly isn't it. Just based on what Uncle G. said about her.
: : : : : : : ciao Donna
: : : : : : ___________________
: : : : : : I ahve always thought the same thing. Hannah is such a nice girl.
: : : : : : mich
: : : : ___________________
: : : : : Me too, it would be so nice since her brother is already an under-gardener there, I'm sure she would be thrilled tobe in the "great house."
: : : : : Cheryl
: : : : ___________________
: : : :
: : : : Oh, why don't we just hire Hannah to sweep up around here? Delete dupe posts, make tea and spy.
: : : : Amy
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Excuse me but I am having an identity crisis. I could see myself and Hannah working at Pemberly witnessing
: : : all the lovely felicity going on between Mr. & Mrs. Darcy. Anything to be in that beautiful house. Not that I like housework so much.
: : : But do you think they would notice if I did a lousy job while I spied and drooled? Oh well, it's one way to be there.
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : It would be better for her to work for Lizzie then at the Lamphton Inn. It is a fact that she would always be in service of some type so, why not the best place and for the best people around.
: : Donna
:
: ___________________
:
: : Let's be really good to Hannah....after she goes to work at Pemberley, she will be snubbed by Mr. Darcy's proud and conceited valet. Never able to get over the slight, she will be blindly prejudiced against him and unable to see that he is fally madly in love with her. Meanwhile, she is attracted by the easy, unaffected manners of the Gardiners' groomsman (the cute one with the white wig).To Hannah and all the other house staff, it is not known that this groomsman,whenever he is in town, tries to seduce the parlormaid, who happens to be the valet's beloved younger sister.
: Need I continue?
: Grace
___________________
Oh, Grace you're at it again!
Bernie
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 07:27:52:
: ___________________
: I don't mean to dwell, but here is the definition of a snob.
: I'm dwelling,ok One who is convinced of and flaunts his social superiority. I was a little harsh he was convinced, until Lizzie changed his mind. I don't think he flaunted it.
: He was an adorable, handsome,very little snob. Now I feel better.
: ciao Donna
___________________
Now, Caroline Bingley and Louisa Hurst a truly snobs of the first degree! Wouldn't you agree ?
Bernie
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on November 05, 1996 at 07:43:58:
: : To say that Lizzy is a "sellout" or a father-figure-worshipping Elektra is erroneous and unfair. "Selling out" is a modern feminist notion which has suffered in the inevitable fallout experienced when all "progressive" deconstructions are reconstructed for what they're actually worth. In other words, no philosophy can provide an answer for everyone's true happiness (big surprise, right?). Lots of women (and men!) I know realize that the stress and disorientation that they feel in their lives are a result of working too hard, planning too much, second-guessing too much, and neglecting familial and personal relationships. Worthy relationships with friends, family, and significant others are the matrix of happiness.
: : What bugs me about the whole Freudian-pseudofeminist argument discussed above is that, applied to Lizzy, it really doesn't fit. How can she be considered a "sellout" when her marriage does not violate her own principles? As Janet stated, Lizzy DOES want to get married, but to the right guy. If she had accepted Mr. Collins, she would have violated her own principles and perhaps general notions of personal integrity. But she didn't - she rejected him ON THE SPOT when she knew she might never get another offer of marriage again. Lizzy might be considered a sellout according to modern principles of personal liberty and integrity not simply by the fact that she partakes of marriage, but because she chooses to marry at all in a society in which we view the institution of marriage as restrictive and the reasons behind marriage as invidious (i.e. economic and other security purposes). If this were the case, than all marriage, at least in that place and era, would be an unethical - if not immoral - propagation of sexism and fascism, which is ridiculous. It makes more sense to say that SOME marriages, then and now, violate modern notions of liberty, but then this would not apply to Lizzy as she marries for the right reasons (love, respect) instead of the wrong ones (goldbrickiness, naivite, foolishness). She is in control of her decision, and is not aspiring to marriage for her own material comfort nor for that of her family. What's more, how can we possibly obligate ancient women to modern notions of "principle"? Heck, even Mary Wollstonecraft spent most of her life mooning over pissy men.
: : As far as the paternalism argument, specifically, I think the terminology re: marriage to a man more powerful, potent, strong, than any man she's known (i.e. her father) is misleading. Why shouldn't ELizabeth marry a strong man? Why should Mr. Darcy's strengths be a reason for her to reject him? True, Mr. Bennet's word choice regarding the type of man Lizzy would need to marry seem to fit with the paternalism argument - "better" than Lizzy is what he says - but I think the context of his terms suggests otherwise. After all, Mr. Darcy is older and a great deal more experienced in life than Elizabeth is. She is young, and after all, was quick to condemn him unfairly while he, despite his proud front, loved her from close to the beginning.
: : Despite all of this, the two of them view eachother as equals - they learn from eachother, which sets the tone for their marriage. They demonstrate that they deserve each other (here we go again). Why shouldn't Elizabeth be allowed to marry someone who has proven that he deserves her, she being perhaps the most remarkable young woman in literature? Elizabeth deserves to be happy with the choices she makes. How can she be in violation of herself if she is happily married with someone she respects and who respects her? As far as Darcy being the Saviour and Elizabeth the saved, I disagree. Whoever said that it is Elizabeth who saves Darcy from his own darkish little existence is absolutely right. In fact, they save eachother!
: : I'm a firm believer that marriage in E and D's situation is one in which two people are the complementary halves of a single positive force. Healthy marriage is a partnership, a state of happiness and fulfillment which transcends sexual politics and defies feminist deconstructionism and Freud's overactive imagination.
: : Mr. Darcy can render me barefoot and pregnant any day,
: : K
: : P.S. Would you believe that I wrote this whole damn thing out once before, then Netscape crashed, and so I had to retype the freaking message again? I hope somebody reads this, for what it's worth! ;-}
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: [[[ S T A N D I N G . O V A T I O N ]]]
: I've been trying to get around to something along these lines, but you have done it much better than I would have!
: AMEN!
: Joan, too
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I totally agree with what you said, there is no way I could have put it so eloquently, and I echo Joan, too's [[[ S T A N D I N G . O V A T I O N ]]].
Bernie
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