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Posted by Kali on November 04, 1996 at 23:18:21:
He must have concluded somehow that Darcy was succuming to the charms of Elizabeth. But he had not communication with Darcy to really be sure. By marrying Lydia he felt he may have a chance to form a lasting tie to the Darcy money. But if D & E never married he would be strapped with one very tormenting and silly wife. Or is he just an addicted seducer?
: : : ___________________
...Lydia very likely invited herself along. It would appear that Wickham just took advantage of her forwardness to have a fling. Wickham told Darcy that he had never intended to marry Lydia.
: : : Joan, too
: :
: : ___________________
: Why Lydia? My perspective on that was, as far as Wickham went, that yes, he did have to leave the regiment, but that he asked Lydia to go with him, not the other way around. When he had to leave, he decided that he wanted some female company to come along with him. The obvious choice was Lydia. I don't think that he knew exactly where things stood with Elizabeth and Darcy. I think he sensed that Elizabeth's attitude toward Darcy had changed, but remember, only Jane knew that Darcy had proposed while Elizabeth stayed with the Collins'. Wickham couldn't know that Darcy would be willing to save Lydia in order to marry Elizabeth.
: Annie
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I think he did it partially, if not subconsciously, to get back at Lizzy ( Do you think Lydia could zip her lip about a chance to show up her older sisters? And do you think Wickham would resist a chance to stick it to someone who no longer trusted his world?) for brushing him off, and partially because he couldn't resist a romp with a willing victim. The guy is obviously out of control, with his drinking, gambling, debts, and past sexual indiscretions. The situation presented itself, so he went with it.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that he did it to get back at Darcy, or to link himself to the Darcy fortune (he wasn't planning on marrying Lydia!), but he may have been thinking that Darcy would try to bribe him into marrying Lydia if he ran off with her. Still, how would he know that Darcy was that smitten by Elizabeth? I agree with Annie here. From Lizzy's behaviour, he could deduce that she had softened towards Darcy, but how can he know the extent of Darcy's own feelings for Elizabeth?
- K
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on November 04, 1996 at 23:26:22:
: Tay:
: Everytime he comes onto the screen with his jolly good smile, I can't help but smile back. Especially the time when he meets Lizzie again in the Inn at Lampton. When he comes up, "Miss Bennet!" a big grin just plastered across his face - his smile is so contagious, and always fills you with a sense of goodness.
: Am I alone in this?
___________________
No you are not - and Jane Austen agrees, as well. She says, "Bingley was sure of being liked wherever he appeared, Darcy was continually giving offence." Lizzie thinks so, too; when Jane is ill at Netherfield she tells Jane "Only your Mr. Bingley is civil and attentive." Some may wish that he had a bit more backbone, but nobody can deny that he is a very pleasant person.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Candace on November 04, 1996 at 23:30:37:
:
: : : ___________________
: : : I think it is because he is not paying attention to anything else going on around him - he is so totally focused on his own fantasy.
: : : He even wants/tries to tune Caroline out when she starts needling Lizzie, but when she gets off the crack about Wickham, he is momentarily physcally jolted out of his dream world, and sent scrambling out of his seat with a "How could I have let this happen?" look, till he sees that Lizzie has everyting under control. Now his fantasy bubble gets even better, because there are signs that it may actually be true - he sees that Lizzie has stepped in and taken on the role of protector to Georgiana; she is not just being civil. Then she actually returns his look...
: : Yes, he is watching her but,she feels his eyes on her.
: : He returns her look,she looks up first with a ever so slight smile. If she didn't look up there would be no connection{look}.
: : A look speaks volumes.
: : Donna
: : could it possibly mean that he might still have a chance after all?
: : : Joan, too
: :
: : ___________________
:
: ___________________
: When Elizabeth has rebuffed Caroline and goes to protect Georgiana, she lifts up her eyes shyly, to look at Darcy, and it seems to me that she is seeking Darcy's approval. It is almost as if she is asking "Did I handle the situation correctly ?"
: Darcy then gives her that half smile, indicating that he is very well pleased with the way that Elizabeth dealt with Caroline's snidiness (sp?). She then looks at him with that lovely smile as if to say "There don't worry about it any longer, I do care about you and your sister".
: We then see Darcy looking beatifically at Lizzie (the look). After all he is in paradise! He is at home, with his sister and with the woman who has shown that she does have some feeling towards him after all -- he senses there is definitely hope for him yet.
: Bernie
:
: ___________________
___________________
I know that it is VERY hard not to completely focus on Darcy and Lizzie here, but next time you watch this scene, check out the way that Georgianna looks at her brother after Lizzie has calmed the situation. It is so very shy and sweet. Almost like she is afraid to look at him at first, thinking that he is displeased. She does a double take when she realizes that he is smiling.
- Candace
Follow Ups:
Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 23:37:32:
: :
: : Hi!
: : I'm only two years older (16-Georgianna's age), and I've been in here only a few days. But it is really okay, nothing bad. I'm sure you'll love it here as much as I do, especially if you're as fond of P&P2 as I am! It's really neat to know there's also some younger people out there like me who love P&P. Most like SVH, you know?
: : With fond farewells,
: : Tay
:
: ___________________
: And I'm only two years older than you, but I've never read a Sweet Valley High book. (Why read that gibberish when you can be reading Austen!)
: Stefanie
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Stefanie,
Thank God there's people out there like you! I myself haven't read a SVH book either. I consider it trashy. Your'e right. We've got all we need and want with Austen!
Tay.
Posted by Ann on November 04, 1996 at 23:38:39:
A.A. Milne's stage play "Miss Elizabeth Bennet" had the scene where Mr. C. proposes to Charlotte.
Here is Milne's view of Charlotte and Mr. Collins' conversation. As you can imagine, Mr. C. repeats almost word-for-word his proposal to Lizzy. This scene takes place atthe second (Netherfield) ball.
.........................................................
Mr. Collins and Chatlotte Lucas are on the sofa together.
Mr. Collins--
I beg you not to think, Miss Lucas, that I am of the opinion that a ball of this nature, given by respectable people, can have any evil tendency, or that I hold dancing to be incompatable with the duty of a clergyman. I do not mean, however, to assert that we can be justified in devoting too much of our time to dancing, for there are other things to be attended to. The rector of such a parish as her ladyship has bestowed upon me has much to do. In the first place--
Charlotte (who is twenty-seven, and quite determined to get married this year). --
I am sureyou must be verybusy, Mr. Collins. I have always thought that a clergyman's work must be so interesting. I have always thought that to be married to a clergyman must be so--interesting; she would find so much in her husband's work to--interest her. I feel that if she were really--interested, she could be of so much help to him in his--work.
Mr. Collins--
It is true as you say, Miss Charlotte, that a clergyman's wife could add very greatly to his happiness, and to the proper discharge of his duties. Indeed, I think it a right thing for every clergyman in easy circumstances to set the example of matrimony in his parish. I may add, in my own case, that it is the particular advice of the very noble lady whom I have the honor of calling patroness. Nor do I reckon the notice and kindness of Lady Catherine de Bourgh as among the least of the advantages which it is in my power to offer the lady on whom I bestow my affections.
Charlotte--
Indeed, no, Mr. Collins! I cannot think that any young woman could wilfully refuse such a privilege.
Mr. Collins (a little awkwardly)--
That is as may be. Certainly in no young woman of intelligent and modest disposition could the sense of her ladyship's condescension fail to excite feelings of awe and gratitude. It was but the very Saturday night before I left Hunsford, when Miss Jenkinson, the lady who superintends Miss de Bourgh's education, was arranging that young lady's footstool, that Lady Catherine said to me, "Mr. Collins, you must marry. Choose a gentlewoman, for my sake, and for your own. Let her be an active, useful sort of person, not brought up high, but able to make a small income go a good way. Find such a woman--"
Charlotte--
Isn't that strange? That is just what I was thinking. An active, useful sort of person--that describes so exactly what I have always thought a clergyman's wife should be.
Mr. Collins (turning to her)--
Miss Charlotte, you can hardly doubt the purport of my discourse. My attentions have been too marked to be mistaken. Almost as soon as I entered Hertfordshire I singled you out as the companion of my future life. It remains only to assure you in the most animated language of the violence of my affections. To fortune I am perfectly indifferent, knowing that your father, Sir William--
(he is left talking)
End of scene.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Candace on November 04, 1996 at 23:43:15:
: : : Don't forget A&E starting next week on Classroom at 7am I believe rebroadcast of our favorite miniseries. I've got my VCR working I hope, (no I do not have a set of tapes yet). Please correct me if this info is incorrect. k
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: :
: : Can't wait. I just bought my blank tapes today.:)
:
: ___________________
: I am so excited that A&E will be showing P&P again! It comes on at 6:00 am here so I will have to plug my headphones into the T.V. so as not to wake my roommate up. Hey, I'll do just about anything to watch this movie!! Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone here at school that is willing to get up that early to view it with me. Oh well, that is life I guess. Thanks for doing this page so Austen addicts like me can find and talk to other addicts that actually understand what the heck I'm talking about! --Sarah
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It will be shown at 4:00am here in California. Since the timer doesn't work on our VCR, I will have to set my alarm to get up to hit the record button. I am determined to finally see those "missing scenes"!
- Candace
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 04, 1996 at 23:45:15:
: : : I was eating lunch yesterday at Au Bon Pain, a fast food sandwich place, when I suddenly felt very tranquil, despite the fact that my 2-year old lunch companion is not especially genteel. Then it hit me---on the piped-in music, Voi Che Sapete was playing---the song Lizzie sings at Pemberley. The Look! Sigh. I felt momentarily transported. I wish I'd had some BB friends there to share the moment---and I suspect you would all have been less likely than my little girl to spill chili on me. Coincidence, or is everyone taking advantage of Austen-mania? If so: more, please.
: : : Jane A.
: :
: : ___________________
: : Along a similar vein; when someone posted "The Look" picture, I could hear running through my mind Voi Che Sapete! Will I ever be able to hear it again and *not* think of Darcy?
: : Cheryl
:
: ___________________
: Last summer I was in Harrod's book dept. when I heard the music from P&P2 playing quietly in the background. Needless to say, I couldn't leave the dept. till it was finished. I now have the CD and play it in my car all the time.
: Inko
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This is a phenomenon not unlike the "our song" thing. I thought I was the only one who got nostalgic about film soundtracks.
- K
Follow Ups:
Posted by Zimei on November 04, 1996 at 23:46:28:
: Last night the BBC was celebrating its 60th birthday. As part of the celebrations, awards for all time greats were made. Favourite all time Drama Serial was of course Pride and Prejudice (2). Favourite all time actor ( as voted by over half a million besotted Brits) was Colin Firth. Colin wasn't at the presentation ceremony, but he gave a very witty acceptance speech from a poolside in LA.
: Bernie
: PS. His hair has been dyed dark, and the mutton chops are back (although they're not as large as in P&P)! He also gave us one of those SMILES, sigh!
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Dear Bernie, will you be kind enough to share with us a little bit what sort of witty things Colin said in his speech ?
much obliged,
Zimei
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 04, 1996 at 23:49:29:
:
: : Hello, everyone. I have just been kicked off the Austen-L ___________________
:
- K
Posted by Mich on November 04, 1996 at 23:53:51:
: Newsweek magazine just arrived. It has a rave review of 'The English Patient'. Nothing much about Colin, though. Grace
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Which part does he play? I've heard several different ideas.
Mich
Posted by Candace on November 04, 1996 at 23:54:12:
: : Tay:
: : Everytime he comes onto the screen with his jolly good smile, I can't help but smile back. Especially the time when he meets Lizzie again in the Inn at Lampton. When he comes up, "Miss Bennet!" a big grin just plastered across his face - his smile is so contagious, and always fills you with a sense of goodness.
: : Am I alone in this?
:
: ___________________
: No you are not - and Jane Austen agrees, as well. She says, "Bingley was sure of being liked wherever he appeared, Darcy was continually giving offence." Lizzie thinks so, too; when Jane is ill at Netherfield she tells Jane "Only your Mr. Bingley is civil and attentive." Some may wish that he had a bit more backbone, but nobody can deny that he is a very pleasant person.
: Joan, too
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I don't really think that it's backbone that Mr. Bingley lacks. I got the impression that the reason he was so easily convinced of Jane's ambivilance was that he did not posess self confidence. No doubt with the sisters that he has! I will stop here -- no more comments on dysfunctional families!
- Candace
Posted by Joan, too on November 04, 1996 at 23:58:05:
: Hilary:
: I also agree about those missing clues that were in the book but not the film. He is so filled with concern at first, (and they got that bit right), that its a pity the follow through wasn't slightly gentler.
___________________
I don't think a gentler follow through would have worked as well in the film. In the book, the only insights that we get on Darcy are when he is directly interacting with Lizzie, however, in the film, Davies has given us an ongoing insight on Darcy's POV without having it filtered through Lizzie's perceptions. Darcy doesn't intend that it to sound so cold, but he has got into very deep water here and after realizing that because others have been allowed to remain unaware of Wickham's true character, the same circumstances that were so painful for his family has now been reenacted with Lizzie's sister as the object of Wickham's villainy. It's quite in character for him to fall back on the safety of formality at this point. If he had remained so gentle it would have made less sense for Lizzie to continue to be so unsure of his feelings. As it is, we (and Lizzie) are able to see that he is capable of tenderness, and that's all that we're to be allowed at this point without unbalancing the tension between their characters which is what keeps the plot in motion.
Joan, too
Posted by Anna on November 05, 1996 at 00:03:45:
: I must say that I actually loved P&P1 -- the one with D. Rintoul and E. Garvie --,too. Does that make me a bad person?
: Julie
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I enjoyed it too - just don't admit to preferring P&P1 to P&P2 :-)
Anna
Posted by Ann on November 05, 1996 at 00:10:09:
: Also, if Lizzy was still not sure about her feelings toward D why did she care that she "will never see him again"? I think she was working towards affection (note her comment, shollow as it sounds, to Jane in beginning a feeling for him "after seeing his lovely grounds at Pemberly")but that the 2 weeks in Lambton wouldn't be enough for her, but it would be interesting to see how far he could have gotten with her. Then the whole return to Meryton etc. I think there's a story there.
___________________
From the text:
" 'When my eyes were opned to his real character--Oh! had I known what I ought, what I dared to do! But I knew not--I was afraid of doing too much. Wretched, wretched mistake!'
"Darcy made no answer. He seemed scarcely to hear her, and was walking up and down the room in earnest meditation, his brow contracted, his air gloomy. Elizabeth soon observed, and instantly understood it. Her power was sinking; everything must sink under such a proof of family weakness, such an assurace of the deepest disgrace. She could neither wonder nor condemn, but the belief of his self-conquest brought nothing consolotory to her bosom, afforded no palliation of her distress. It was, on the contrary, exactly calculated to make her understand her own wishes; and never had she so honestly felt that she could have loved him, as now, when all love must be in vain."
She falls in love with him just as she thinks she has lost him forever.
Ann
Posted by Mich on November 05, 1996 at 00:11:25:
: : I was eating lunch yesterday at Au Bon Pain, a fast food sandwich place, when I suddenly felt very tranquil, despite the fact that my 2-year old lunch companion is not especially genteel. Then it hit me---on the piped-in music, Voi Che Sapete was playing---the song Lizzie sings at Pemberley. The Look! Sigh. I felt momentarily transported. I wish I'd had some BB friends there to share the moment---and I suspect you would all have been less likely than my little girl to spill chili on me. Coincidence, or is everyone taking advantage of Austen-mania? If so: more, please.
: : Jane A.
:
: ___________________
: Along a similar vein; when someone posted "The Look" picture, I could hear running through my mind Voi Che Sapete! Will I ever be able to hear it again and *not* think of Darcy?
: Cheryl
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Cheryl
for your sake I hope not, Darcy, what a wnderful thought.
Mich
Posted by Mich on November 05, 1996 at 00:21:00:
: Hi. I am sorry I am one more Ann, kind of. I am 14 and just read P&P. I asked my mom if this was an okay place to read messages and she looked at it and wasn't sure. This morning I asked her again and she said she had a god idea. That I should ask you if you would want your 14 old dauhters in here. She said she thought you seemed like nice people. That she would consider what you think about it. Thank you.
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Pls join in I think we all would like your perspective.
Mich
Posted by Tipper (my Real Nickname) on November 05, 1996 at 00:22:22:
: I get the same impression. It's a great acting job by Colin Firth. His changes of expression are
: subtle but very realistic. In the initial look (while Elizabeth is playing) Darcy's eyes shift briefly
: from Elizabeth to Georgiana then back. (I missed this the first 10 or 20 times I watched this
: scene -- and even now I sometimes miss it if I blink!) His look of contentment is more pronounced
: (slightly) after his eyes refocus on Elizabeth. I get the impression that he is thoroughly enjoying
: having the two women he most cares about side by side in his house, getting to know each
: other. It is enough for the moment -- in fact, it is probably all he can deal with emotionally at that
: moment.
: Just a thought.
: kathleen
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I'm usually just a lurker and admirer here, but Kathleen, I noticed the eye movement back and forth in that first "look" too. I think there was an editing glitch there. I think there was supposed to be a shot of Georgianna giving her approval of and admiration of Lizzie to her brother. When Darcy looks back at Lizzie, I think the look on his face was supposed to reflect how proud he was of Lizzie and how enveloped he was in a moment that was perfect to him in every way. Try looking at the moment again on the tape, with the thought in mind that Darcy and Georgianna have exchanged looks. Maybe you'll agree.
By the way I think that little picture is of that moment. As his eyes move from Georgianna back to Lizzie.
Tipper
Posted by Janet on November 05, 1996 at 00:23:23:
:
: Having looked at the responses to this thread, all make good points, but you are definitely bringing up ideas that many critics of the novel do point out--that when Lizzie looks at Darcy's picture at Pemberley and her general reaction to him from this time on, she is reacting to the "strong male", because her father had shown himself to have abdicated that position in relation to her family. Also, the critics point out that while there is a little information in the last chapter about their marriage, the reason Jane Austen did not continue any of her novels is that, given the realities of marriage in her day, it might be too painful to see the heroines "dwindle into wives" (I believe the quote is from Lionel Trilling). While I personally think Darcy would not be a tyrannical husband, there is no doubt that legal and societal conventions would give him tremendous power over Elizabeth, and he is used to command(!). I can see some real conflict down the line between Elizabeth's personality and habits and Darcy's interest in having a wife who behaved quite conventionally in many instances. He would not have to hold that that he married beneath his station over Elizabeth--she would always be aware of it. What does anyone think?
: Rebecca
__________
Darcy's greatest personal fault was his "selfish disdain for the feelings of others" which prevented Lizzy from believing that he would strive to make her happy. This coincides with her rejection of Mr. Collins in which she declares, "You could not make me happy, and I am convinced that I am the last woman in the world who would make you so." In his turn, Darcy, too, "will not give himself the trouble" of trying to please others, including her. As he explained in the conclusion, he was taught "to care for none beyond my own family circle, to think meanly of all the rest of the world," and so was unable to please anyone, especially Lizzy. Darcy is strongly contrasted with Bingley who is so pleased with and pleasing to everyone, as is the ever-pleasant Jane held up against the more discerning Lizzy.
In the end, Darcy assured Lizzy that "You shewed me how insufficient were all my pretensions to please a woman worthy of being pleased." Once he improved his manners he became "desirous to please" and "determined, to be pleased" by her. Lizzy then concluded that their mutual happiness depended upon each other.
Lizzy and Darcy were able to breech the gulf which society put between them, and to make their connection based upon their own judgement, reason and emotions. Whether because of or in spite of this, they arrived at a meeting of minds, purpose and feeling. In this sense, there is the promise of freedom in their choice. Fortunately, they were privileged to be able to escape and "remove themselves from society...to their family party at Pemberley." Perhaps their mutual happiness both derives from and depends upon this escape?
: Janet
_________
Posted by Mich on November 05, 1996 at 00:23:39:
: 
Oh, who am I trying to kid anyway by not posting. I could no more have an idea for a quick graphic and not act on it than I could slam the door in Mr Darcy's face.
: What do you think we are rated here? PG-13?
: Amy
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Yes PG-13 fit us nicely.
Mich
Posted by Joan, too on November 05, 1996 at 00:23:44:
: Nancy R.
: Netherfield dog is a Harlequin Great Dane. Large breed dog, square head and droopy jowls which allow the saliva to drip all over your shoes.
Having looked at him again, his spots are also too large to be a dalmatian, but he is not nearly tall enough to be a great dane. Minimum height at the shoulder for Great danes is 30 inches. Unless maybe he is still a puppy?
: Pemb dogs in gallery: Thin one is a Whippet the other I think was an English Springer Spaniel.
Yes, could be whippet, but springers have much longer hair than either of those dogs seemed to have. They are often shaved on their backs and sides, but long "feathers" are left on the legs and tummy..
Joan, too
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