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Posted by Anna on November 04, 1996 at 18:50:24:
:
: Depends on whether or not you like port.
I do - if it's good port, and in winter (or any time of the year in England).
:If you've never had it, don't. Stick to starboard.
: Eric
___________________
?? what's starboard ??
Anna (posting from subtropical Australia)
Posted by Hilary on November 04, 1996 at 18:51:50:
: : Ever since I noticed it, Firth's twitch when Ehle says "You
: : know him too well to doubt the rest" has bothered me. If you
: : don't notice it, it seems natural, but if you see it, it
: : seems like an actor's trick. (One small complaint in an
: : otherwise wonderful performance.)
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
: I like the twitch, although I see it more as a flinch, almost as if he had been slapped in the face. I think this is exactly how Darcy took it, as a rebuke, although Lizzy didn't mean it that way, of course.
: Cheryl
___________________
I like it too. But I don't see him taking it exactly as a rebuke. It's more like a flinch or shiver of remembering all that he had been through with Georgiana. And for me it also plays back to that flinch in the first proposal, where Lizzie tells him he is ungentlemanly - its a mannerism of an emotional truth being acknowledged. But this time he and Lizzie are on the same side.
Hilary
Posted by Anna on November 04, 1996 at 18:53:28:
: : : : proposing in Lambton;
: : : I'm inclined to think that it would have been to soon for him to propose again
: : : Anna.
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : I agree with you. I don't think that Darcy purposly went to the Inn wanting to propose again. I think that it was just a matter that Lizzie was so near and he needed to be with her. ...
: : -Candace
:
: ___________________
: We would have missed Darcy taking her hand, such a personal and sentimental thing to do, sigh!! I still wonder why her was in such a hurry to get to her that morning. She had plans with the Gardiner's???
: -Dina
___________________
I agree with Candace - he just couldn't stay away from her.
Anna.
Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 18:55:08:
: : : : She is 16!
: : : : Ann
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Someone should have told that to Mr. and Mrs. Bennet where it regards Lydia!!!!
: : : Annie
: : ___________________
: : Uhum. Lydia is fifteen.
: : Tay.
:
: ___________________
: "In a short time I shall have a daughter married. Mrs. Wickham! How well it sounds. And she was only sixteen last June."
: Linda
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Oops!
Thanks for the correction. I had forgotten that Lydia grew up. My goodness, why do all of George Wikham's elopee's(?) or possible elopee's are at the age of sixteen? And here I thought my age was supposed to be "sweet"! I suppose I should be on alert for any Wikham, eh? Just Joking. After all, the only guy who so far proposed marriage was a nearly forty year old who liked me because I'm of a good respectable family. Think any Darcy'll come along soon?
Tay
Posted by Anna on November 04, 1996 at 18:59:53:
:
: Having looked at the responses to this thread, all make good points, but you are definitely bringing up ideas that many critics of the novel do point out--that when Lizzie looks at Darcy's picture at Pemberley and her general reaction to him from this time on, she is reacting to the "strong male", because her father had shown himself to have abdicated that position in relation to her family. Also, the critics point out that while there is a little information in the last chapter about their marriage, the reason Jane Austen did not continue any of her novels is that, given the realities of marriage in her day, it might be too painful to see the heroines "dwindle into wives" (I believe the quote is from Lionel Trilling). While I personally think Darcy would not be a tyrannical husband, there is no doubt that legal and societal conventions would give him tremendous power over Elizabeth, and he is used to command(!). I can see some real conflict down the line between Elizabeth's personality and habits and Darcy's interest in having a wife who behaved quite conventionally in many instances. He would not have to hold that that he married beneath his station over Elizabeth--she would always be aware of it. What does anyone think?
: Rebecca
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I take comfort from the fact that Lizzy continued to take liberties with Darcy that amazed Georgiana. I also think that when Lizzy teases Darcy about being attracted by her cheek (in the book, unfortunately not included in P&P2), she is setting a precedent for having her say. Still she would have been legally under his control (in some cases this prooved to be a problem for the husband, who was legally liable for his wife's behaviour); to me part of the attraction of Darcy is the impression I get that he valued Lizzy for her individuality and would continue to respect it, and not abuse the priviledges that the law gave him.
Anna
Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 19:01:07:
: : And That Walk - I also love Darcy's elegant walk through the gallery in the dark with his dogs later in the scene. It's lovely to see how his mind is immersed in thoughts of Lizzy in those solitary moments.
: : Zimei
:
: ___________________
: I have long admired Mr. Firth's gait; the long strides, the way his left arm swings out, oh yes, I am excessively attentive to all those things!
: Cheryl
___________________
Especially when he's all wet in the Pemberley encounter! My eyes followed him walking away even as the camera focused on Lizzie's embarassed expression.
Tay.
Posted by Hilary on November 04, 1996 at 19:09:28:
: : : I've always been surprised that Darcy fronted up to say goodbye at all, considering all that had happened - hence Lizzie's incredulous "Mr. Darcy called here?". Maybe it was just good manners, but I sometimes wonder if he wanted to see if his letter had possibly had some affect that could give him hope to go away with. I think he had asked Col Fitz. to lurk in case Lizzie wanted to confirm anything in the letter, though I don't think he would have given Fitz much detail. And I also wonder if, in retrospect Lizzie saw his turning up to say goodbye as more proof of his love.
: : : Hilary
: :
: : ___________________
: : I think Darcy's calling to take his leave was more good manners than anything. He didn't want to see her and was releved when she wasn't in- perhaps he even made the call then because he thought she would still be out on her walk and reading his letter? But to not call would have been unthinkable socially and would have drawn much more attention and speculation than he wanted.
: : Cheryl
:
: ___________________
:
: : I agree with Cheryl. Darcy's call at the parsonage was a necessary formality only.
: Getting back to Colonel Fitzwilliam, P&P2 does not play up the interest he took in Lizzy or Darcy's taking note of it. I wonder if the Colonel's walk around the park with Lizzy could have been the last straw for Darcy - especially when the Colonel revealed that he knew of Lizzy's feeling unwell and had seen her safely back to the parsonage ---- much too intimate in Darcy's opinion? Did this help to prompt the proposal?
: Grace
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Yes, I think I must bow to your better wisdom, Cheryl and Grace. Sometimes I just get carried away. But why was she so incredulous then?
Hadn't thought of jealousy of Fitz helping to prompt the proposal. But Darcy would have known Fitz's circumstances, wouldn't he, and known he was not in a position to marry Lizzie?
Hilary
Follow Ups:
Posted by Nina on November 04, 1996 at 19:13:29:
: Don't forget A&E starting next week on Classroom at 7am I believe rebroadcast of our favorite miniseries. I've got my VCR working I hope, (no I do not have a set of tapes yet). Please correct me if this info is incorrect. k
___________________
Can't wait. I just bought my blank tapes today.:)
Posted by Paula on November 04, 1996 at 19:20:56:
: : I love the way the scene is played where Darcy comes to the inn just after Lizzy gets the letters from Jane. He is so concerned that he actually takes her
: : hand without it being offered -- and you see him realize it and reluctantly release it. It shows a side of Darcy that has not been
: : revealed to Lizzy before -- and she was too upset to actually see it.
: : Anne
:
A wonderful scene, showing the couple getting closer. Lizzy now trusts Darcy enough to cry her eyes out in front of him and reveal her family disaster. (In contrast, if Mr. Collins had stopped by, she probably would've excused herself instead of telling him everything).
Darcy responds strongly to Lizzy's distress (he calls the servant, offers wine, helps her sit down, takes her hand). This caring and protective response is a foreshadowing of his later actions when he protects the whole family from scandal.
Speaking of family secrets, Lizzy already knows Darcy's secret (Wickham's attempted seduction of Georgianna). Plus, they have their own secret together (Darcy's first proposal). So on this level they are pretty intimate. They've revealed a lot to each other and trust each other. It sets the stage for the second proposal.
But meantime Austen throws in more obstacles--the abrupt way in which Darcy leaves, which is open to misinterpretation, and the scandal itself. Lizzy's later reaction--fear that Darcy will drop her now that he knows all these awful things--is pretty human, though. I've felt this way myself.
--Paula
Posted by Hilary on November 04, 1996 at 19:26:20:
: : : : Stop it! Stop it! What is happening to us? Where is the love, the obsession, the passion we once shared?
: :
: : ___________________
: : Perhaps the 7 month itch? Or is it the transformation from passionate to companiate love?
: : Hilary
:
: ___________________
:
: :The seven month itch --- yes, that's it! Do you suppose A&E's rebroadcast could act as a second honeymoon, rekindling the flame?
: Grace
___________________
Maybe there's hope, but you will have to put some thoughtful innovations into your veiwing habits - what is it? candles, chocolates, flowers, exotic setting (could you receive A&E in Hawaii??) But there is no rebroadcast on the horizon here, having had a repeat very soon after the first showing. Where does this leave us, I wonder - only renewal of vows springs to mind!
Hilary
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on November 04, 1996 at 19:31:36:
hopefully this site won't falter without you!
: Tay
___________________
Thanks everybody. If I have done it right this thing should now have a life of its own. I have been missing it already. The Lambton Inn scene. That mumbled murmur from Darcy as he holds her hand, "No... no."
[sigh]
Amy
Posted by Amy on November 04, 1996 at 19:37:15:
I asked my mom if this was an okay place to read messages
_____________
Dear Anika,
I sure hope we have not made a place that a mom would not want her 14 year old to come to. I think it's okay. If she does email, ask her to write me directly anytime she ever wonders about anything.
You are lucky to have so many more years of JA ahead of you. I discovered her at 30. I did read Jane Eyre at 14, Little Women at 10, junk teenage romances at 9 and 10. I remember going through the Beverly Cleary books (she wrote mostly for teens at the time) and hunting for any titles that did not have the word "love" in them as I was embarrassed to bring them home.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Karen on November 04, 1996 at 19:39:11:
: I am sure this has previously been discussed, but please bear with me. I have joined in only one before and didn't find you until recently.
: After Darcy gives Lizzy the letter on the grounds at Rosing and she returns, Maria tells her-when she returns- that both Darcy and Fitzwilliam had called on her while she was gone. Maria says that Darcy left shortly, but Fitzwilliam stayed on for over a half hour. In the book, he contemplates going out to look for her.
: Do you suppose that Fitzwilliam stayed on to smooth over "spilling the beans" to Lizzy re: Jane and Bingley and Darcy's part in it, or that he simply enjoyed her company so much that he wished to tell her goodby?. That Jane-one more time, she leaves a lot up to us to think about and to consider!
___________________
This was in response to Grace's thread. I don't think Darcy was jealous of Fitzwilliam. In the book Lizzie thinks he may be interested in her but he does not show interest in her in that amorous way. It's not really clear why he never follows up on his initial interest but one gets the impression that Darcy must have implied something in one of their conversations. In P&P2 Davies makes Fitzwilliam "aware" of Darcy's interest in Lizzy but he statement about how he has hear so much about her.
Karen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Grace on November 04, 1996 at 19:48:50:
: : : : : Stop it! Stop it! What is happening to us? Where is the love, the obsession, the passion we once shared?
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Perhaps the 7 month itch? Or is it the transformation from passionate to companiate love?
: : : Hilary
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : :The seven month itch --- yes, that's it! Do you suppose A&E's rebroadcast could act as a second honeymoon, rekindling the flame?
: : Grace
:
: ___________________
: Maybe there's hope, but you will have to put some thoughtful innovations into your veiwing habits - what is it? candles, chocolates, flowers, exotic setting (could you receive A&E in Hawaii??) But there is no rebroadcast on the horizon here, having had a repeat very soon after the first showing. Where does this leave us, I wonder - only renewal of vows springs to mind!
: Hilary
___________________
: Innovations in our viewing habits...the perfect suggestion. For this rebroadcast,we do want to push the right buttons, after all. Do you think an alcoholic libation might be in order? After reading Eric in another thread, I think port might be too much......I lean to starboard, myself.
Grace
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on November 04, 1996 at 19:50:25:
: : : : I've always been surprised that Darcy fronted up to say goodbye at all, considering all that had happened - hence Lizzie's incredulous "Mr. Darcy called here?". Maybe it was just good manners, but I sometimes wonder if he wanted to see if his letter had possibly had some affect that could give him hope to go away with. I think he had asked Col Fitz. to lurk in case Lizzie wanted to confirm anything in the letter, though I don't think he would have given Fitz much detail. And I also wonder if, in retrospect Lizzie saw his turning up to say goodbye as more proof of his love.
: : : : Hilary
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : I think Darcy's calling to take his leave was more good manners than anything. He didn't want to see her and was releved when she wasn't in- perhaps he even made the call then because he thought she would still be out on her walk and reading his letter? But to not call would have been unthinkable socially and would have drawn much more attention and speculation than he wanted.
: : : Cheryl
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : : I agree with Cheryl. Darcy's call at the parsonage was a necessary formality only.
: : Getting back to Colonel Fitzwilliam, P&P2 does not play up the interest he took in Lizzy or Darcy's taking note of it. I wonder if the Colonel's walk around the park with Lizzy could have been the last straw for Darcy - especially when the Colonel revealed that he knew of Lizzy's feeling unwell and had seen her safely back to the parsonage ---- much too intimate in Darcy's opinion? Did this help to prompt the proposal?
: : Grace
:
: ___________________
: Yes, I think I must bow to your better wisdom, Cheryl and Grace. Sometimes I just get carried away. But why was she so incredulous then?
: Hadn't thought of jealousy of Fitz helping to prompt the proposal. But Darcy would have known Fitz's circumstances, wouldn't he, and known he was not in a position to marry Lizzie?
: Hilary
___________________
It seems that Fitzwilliam liking her would have proved to Mr. Darcy that she was worthy enough for him but, If it did he would not have said the things he said.
Yes, he was a little envious because they got along so well.
He struggling for months so, when she didn't show up at Rosings it was the prefect time to ask her because she was alone. Then he would have to go to LBourne.
ciao Donna
Posted by Grace on November 04, 1996 at 20:01:10:
:
: : Another book everyone is talking about is 'The Rules', a how-to-secure-a-man bible. I want to get it and see what all the fuss is about... and of course, see how it applies to Lizzy, Jane, Lydia and Charlotte. That could make for a fun discussion. Anyone out there read this one?????
: : Grace
:
: ___________________
: I've heard of this, but I don't think its reached the antipodes yet. I think the other one that someone mentioned in an aside, 'Men from Mars, Women from Venus', is here, but I can't bring myself to look at it yet. I prefer to consider gender as a continuum from female through to male, and people take their place somewhere along that line, rather than seeing it as entirely opposing forces and worlds. But no doubt I am jumping to conclusions from the book's title and I should actually address this prejudice by reading some of it.
: Hilary
___________________
: My philosophy is much the same as yours. These books are interesting, but I would not take them too seriously.
Unfortunately, many women (including some friends of mine) are flocking to Rules seminars in hopes of finding the path to Mr. Right. The way I understand some of the basics... such as never returning calls, never accepting dates after Wednesday for the weekend.....Charlotte and Lydia, who were into accepting in general, could use a seminar or two.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on November 04, 1996 at 20:10:36:
: : : : : : Stop it! Stop it! What is happening to us? Where is the love, the obsession, the passion we once shared?
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : : Perhaps the 7 month itch? Or is it the transformation from passionate to companiate love?
: : : : Hilary
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : :The seven month itch --- yes, that's it! Do you suppose A&E's rebroadcast could act as a second honeymoon, rekindling the flame?
: : : Grace
: :
: : ___________________
: : Maybe there's hope, but you will have to put some thoughtful innovations into your veiwing habits - what is it? candles, chocolates, flowers, exotic setting (could you receive A&E in Hawaii??) But there is no rebroadcast on the horizon here, having had a repeat very soon after the first showing. Where does this leave us, I wonder - only renewal of vows springs to mind!
: : Hilary
:
: ___________________
:
: : Innovations in our viewing habits...the perfect suggestion. For this rebroadcast,we do want to push the right buttons, after all. Do you think an alcoholic libation might be in order? After reading Eric in another thread, I think port might be too much......I lean to starboard, myself.
: Grace
___________________
Yes, Grace coffee and a English muffin is the only way to go at 7:00a.m. Hope I am not excepting to much from the missing scenes.
Thanks Donna
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on November 04, 1996 at 20:38:08:
: Oh, who am I trying to kid anyway by not posting. I could no more have an idea for a quick graphic and not act on it than slam the door in Mr Darcy's face.
: What do you think we are rated here? PG-13?
: Amy
___________________
You weren't gone very long. It is a good thing because I didn't say good bye. Good bye, like your hat. Hello, like your graphic. Anyway you can't forget the missings scenes. P-G 13 usually means bad language doesn't in all forms.
ciao Donna
P.S. Go dogs Go Dr. Suess
Follow Ups:
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