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Posted by Anna on November 04, 1996 at 16:25:53:
: Mr dear fellow addicts,
: I'll only be half here for a couple of weeks. Will delete posts and keep up the archive, watch for porn, but not post and think as a participant
I'm sorry to hear you'll be stuck with the work and not the play
Back with you wholeheartedly as soon as that is accomplished and I meet a couple real work deadlines.
: Affectionately,
: Amy
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I look forward to your full participation again,
Thanks for doing a great job,
Anna
Posted by Nancy R on November 04, 1996 at 16:31:47:
: Did anyone else find fault with Lady C's remark to Elizabeth about
: having brothers and sisters? She had just made the statement that
: the Bennet estate was entailed upon Mr. Collins and then she asked
: Lizzy if she had brothers and sisters. If she had had brothers, the
: estate would not have been entailed on Mr. Collins. Someone of her
: position would/should have known that.
: Anne
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In P&P when you sister marrys, her husband becomes your brother and you are his sister. Wickham calls the Miss
Bennets his sisters, and Lizzy says "...come we are brother and sister now.." I took C.deB's statement as an attempt to find out if any of Lizzy's sisters are married yet. Notice her next question (I think) asks if Lizzy's younger sisters are out. Given that she knows Collins will get Longborne, that Lizzy has no brothers (ie no married sisters), and that all of Lizzys sisters are out, she deduces that all of Lizzy's younger sisters are out before the older are married. I love Lizzy's reticence to admit to being single at 21 years of age!!! Oh how times have changed........
Nancy R.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Cheryl on November 04, 1996 at 16:32:54:
: I'd always assumed Darcy had called to give her the letter, and, finding her out had gone to look for her. It isn't obvious in the video, but in the book we are told that she walked for ~ 2 hours, and only went into the Rosings grounds near the end of her walk.
: Anna
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I had never thought of that, Anna. Interesting idea, but then, I don't think he could have given her the letter in front of other people- that would be a terrible breach of etiquette- only engaged persons were allowed to exchange letters. No, Darcy would not have wanted to raise any speculation of that kind, he needed to hand-deliver it and in private to avoid gossip.
Cheryl
Posted by Nancy R. on November 04, 1996 at 16:33:56:
: : Did anyone else find fault with Lady C's remark to Elizabeth about
: : having brothers and sisters? She had just made the statement that
: : the Bennet estate was entailed upon Mr. Collins and then she asked
: : Lizzy if she had brothers and sisters. If she had had brothers, the
: : estate would not have been entailed on Mr. Collins. Someone of her
: : position would/should have known that.
: : Anne
:
: ___________________
:
: In P&P when you sister marrys, her husband becomes your brother and you are his sister. Wickham calls the Miss. Bennets his sisters, and Lizzy says "...come we are brother and sister now.." I took C.deB's statement as an attempt to find out if any of Lizzy's sisters are married yet. Notice her next question (I think) asks if Lizzy's younger sisters are out. Given that she knows Collins will get Longborne, that Lizzy has no brothers (ie no married sisters), and that all of Lizzys sisters are out, she deduces that all of Lizzy's younger sisters are out before the older are married. I love Lizzy's reticence to admit to being single at 20 years of age!!! Oh how times have changed........
: Nancy R.
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Posted by Zimei on November 04, 1996 at 17:09:31:
Another neat Darcy line is at the end of Lizzy/Darcy Dance at Nertherfield ball - "I would by no means suspend any pleasure of yours." As Lisa analized in her Nertherfied ball play-by-play essay, it's "icily polite, with veiled sarcasm."
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on November 04, 1996 at 17:11:54:
: : : : : : One thing that always bothered me about Lydia's invitation to Brighton was the way Kitty reacted to it. She had a right to be jealous, but as she herself said, she was not Mrs. Forster's "particular friend," and Lydia was. It doesn't matter that Kitty was older; Lydia was closer to Mrs. Forster. It was only natural that, if Mrs. Forster was going to invite one of the Bennet girls, she was going to invite Lydia to go with her.
: : : : : : Did this bother anyone else or do you think that maybe Kitty had the right to the invitation (even though neither one of them should have been allowed to go)?
: : : : :
: : : : : ___________________
: : : : :
: : : : : Of course kitty was way off base! She is immature, selfish, and insipid, and almost completely out of control when she's around Lydia. Kitty is not rational, and so makes a mountain out of a mole-hill when Lydia gets the invitation. Of course, Lydia shouldn't be going either, but the mere fact that she does get to go clues us in to how much the Bennet family is malfunctioning at this point (Candace? Where are you with your dysfunctional family theories?). What was Mr. Bennet thinking?
: : : : : - K
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : :
: : : : Lydia is 15 years old, I know my parents would not let me go with people other then family unless they were very good friends and reliable people. Mrs. Foster did seem to be very silly and Mr. Foster to old to be able to watch over Lydia's whereabouts. Also Mr.B. had really no insight to Lydia really,{she wanted his attention} he just knew he did want to be annoyed by Lydia if she stayed home. I think Lydia thought since everyone liked Wickham including Lizzie, Mr.B and Mrs.B. she thought it was ok to take off with Wickham. Maybe Mrs. B. idea was right the whole family should of went then they could see Lydia in action. Maybe Kitty would of found her out. Really the only thing Lydia really wanted was the right kind of instruction from both her parents. You can't always blame the kids.
: : : :
: : : : ciao Donna
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Mr. Bennet was thinking, I believe, what he claimed to be thinking: that Lydia must make a public spectacle of herself someplace before she learns, that no fortune-hunter would want her (she had no fortune), that Brighton offered an opportunity to let her make a spectacle of herself and get thoroughly embarrassed at comparatively little expense to himself and with a family that, on the surface, certainly appears respectable and responsible. He misunderstood Lydia in one particular alone. He honestly thought her capable of being embarrassed, of being shamed. He misunderstood the Forsters in two particulars. One, Mrs. Forster had to have been a silly, foolish lady if she wanted Lydia's company, and two, Col. Forster would necessarily be too busy to ride herd on both of them.
: : : Lydia wanted not only the proper instruction from her parents, but the wit to comprehend it. You cannot always blame the parents, either. That Mr. Bennet was more judicious in his insights than his resolve is obvious. He failed Lydia. He should have been more resolute. Lydia, however, is a silly ass of a girl - and for that she bears full responsibility herself.
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : At 15 years old, I beg to differ a parent is totally responsible. I have a 13 year old son and he would run wild if I let him. Mr. B. took the easy way out. When my children don't behave if I am present or not it is a total embarrassment to me. You must not have children because Mr. B's way of thinking is wrong. I have no doubt about it. Every child has wit she was never made to use it and where does that fault lie. Maybe we all should give up on kids like Lydia.
: : I would never give up. By the law now a days parents are held responsible until they are 18.
: : Joan too your a teacher we need your response
: : Donna
:
: ___________________
:
: To be truthful, I have three children. And while the law may hold parents responsible until the child is 18, the child is quite capable of making decisions for him/herself well before.
I agree with what Joan {too} has said. If you have done everything possible then you can live with yourself,but Mr. B. didn't care to do anything. It seemed he used the school of hard knocks to try an enlighten his neglected daughter and it back fired right in his face. Lydia as you say is witless then she should have never been allowed to go. The decision was in her fathers hands and he blew it. Some children are capable of making decisions and some are not.If the parents can't see that they are incapable then that child is big trouble. He shoved her right into Wickham and any other mans path because he had know insight to her real behavior. I will never blame Lydia because she wanted attention from a man {any man}. She picked the weakest.
ciao Donna
Indeed, I agree that Mr. Bennet took an easy way out. I would by no means detract from his culpability. But Mr. B did not go chasing after every officer in Meryton and Mr. B did not go off with Mr. Wickham in some silly elopement and Mr. B certainly had (in his own imperfect way) warned all his daughters of behaving so. Simply because Lydia was 15 does not make her folly Mr. B's fault. I can only repeat what I said earlier - Lydia wanted not only proper instruction (and she did want it) but also the wit to comprehend it. For the former, we may justly blame Mr. B. For the latter, Lydia must bear the blame.
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Posted by Zimei on November 04, 1996 at 17:13:36:
:
: Another neat Darcy line is at the end of Lizzy/Darcy Dance at Nertherfield ball - "I would by no means suspend any pleasure of yours." As Lisa analized in her Nertherfied ball play-by-play essay, it's "icily polite, with veiled sarcasm."
(the image link didn't go through in my last post, so one more try)
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Posted by Anna on November 04, 1996 at 17:25:40:
: I imagine they would both feel very awkward after the shock had worn off and the essense of the information had been conveyed. An elopement was an embarrassment to a family. And she's also confessing that her sister is basically a trollop.
Lydia *is* a trollop IMO, but Georgiana was only saved from a similar fate by luck in the form of Darcy's unexpected arrival. We know that Georgiana's "fault" was naivety, but on the surface Lydia's behaviour is no worse than Georgiana's (her wealth would have made Wickham marry G immediately, but that is another issue)
: It was definitely a "very private and emotional matter," as you say. I can't help wondering, though, how Darcy would have reacted had the matter been less private but just as emotional. Say, for instance, that Jane had been writing to tell Lizzy that Mrs. Bennet had fallen ill and was on her death bed. How Darcy would have consoled and soothed Lizzy! How he would have done everything in his power to make her comfortable! He would probably have offered her his carriage ... maybe even accompanied her himself. He would have never left her side from that moment on, I'm convinced.
I can't see this. I agree that Darcy wouldn't have decamped so quickly, but the Gardiners have a perfectly good carriage of their own, and I think that Darcy would not have wanted to seem presumptous - he might fear that if Lizzy thoght he was assuming rights he didn't have she would get angry with him again, and when she is angry she has a *very* damaging tongue!
: I thought CF's Darcy too harsh however in that scene. He really sounds cold when he says. "I'm afraid you have long been desiring my absence." ...
: -Arnessa
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I thought this was clumsiness rather than coldness and another example of his relative inexperience with expressing strong emotions. One of the reasons he really *needs* as well as wants Lizzy.
Anna.
Posted by Nancy R. on November 04, 1996 at 17:28:24:
Lost this post once, but I shall try again....
I only remember 4-5 dogs.
Netherfield dog is a Harlequin Great Dane. Large breed dog, square head and droopy jowls which allow the saliva to drip all over your shoes. Probably why Jennifer Ehle was bouncing around so much!!
Pemb dogs in gallery: Thin one is a Whippet the other I think was an English Springer Spaniel.
Pemberly dogs out front when Lizzy left after dinner: One was a great dane I think, the other I am not sure.
Nancy R.
Posted by Grace on November 04, 1996 at 17:40:17:
Newsweek magazine just arrived. It has a rave review of 'The English Patient'. Nothing much about Colin, though. Grace
Posted by Stefanie on November 04, 1996 at 18:07:26:
: The second nit is that Jane, in her first letter, refers to the Gardiner children as her nieces and nephews. Aren't they her cousins??
: Linda
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The cousin thing bothered me for awhile too. I just figured that since there was such a large age difference, back then, they were more like nieces and nephews than cousins.
Stefanie
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anna on November 04, 1996 at 18:10:51:
: When Elizabeth has rebuffed Caroline and goes to protect Georgiana, she lifts up her eyes shyly, to look at Darcy, and it seems to me that she is seeking Darcy's approval. It is almost as if she is asking "Did I handle the situation correctly ?"
I can't see Lizzy as shy - I thought she was giving him a look of complicity (is that a recognised word?), she and Darcy both know and are together engaged in concealing Georgiana's involvement with and distress over Wickham.
: Darcy then gives her that half smile, indicating that he is very well pleased with the way that Elizabeth dealt with Caroline's snidiness (sp?). She then looks at him with that lovely smile as if to say "There don't worry about it any longer, I do care about you and your sister".
Enough to protect Georgiana, who comes across as a very engaging girl. However it's a long step from this to being in love with Darcy.
: We then see Darcy looking beatifically at Lizzie (the look). After all he is in paradise! He is at home, with his sister and with the woman who has shown that she does have some feeling towards him after all -- he senses there is definitely hope for him yet.
: Bernie
:
: ___________________
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As I've said I think Lizzy is motivated mainly by concern for G at this point - and maybe by a very natural desire to squash Miss Bingley whenever possible. It is also a very encouraging moment for Darcy.
Posted by Stefanie on November 04, 1996 at 18:10:54:
: : Let's be really good to Hannah....after she goes to work at Pemberley, she will be snubbed by Mr. Darcy's proud and conceited valet. Never able to get over the slight, she will be blindly prejudiced against him and unable to see that he is fally madly in love with her. Meanwhile, she is attracted by the easy, unaffected manners of the Gardiners' groomsman (the cute one with the white wig).To Hannah and all the other house staff, it is not known that this groomsman,whenever he is in town, tries to seduce the parlormaid, who happens to be the valet's beloved younger sister.
: Need I continue?
: Grace
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Cute, I think we get the picture.
Posted by Hilary on November 04, 1996 at 18:18:30:
: Another book everyone is talking about is 'The Rules', a how-to-secure-a-man bible. I want to get it and see what all the fuss is about... and of course, see how it applies to Lizzy, Jane, Lydia and Charlotte. That could make for a fun discussion. Anyone out there read this one?????
: Grace
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I've heard of this, but I don't think its reached the antipodes yet. I think the other one that someone mentioned in an aside, 'Men from Mars, Women from Venus', is here, but I can't bring myself to look at it yet. I prefer to consider gender as a continuum from female through to male, and people take their place somewhere along that line, rather than seeing it as entirely opposing forces and worlds. But no doubt I am jumping to conclusions from the book's title and I should actually address this prejudice by reading some of it.
Hilary
Follow Ups:
Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 18:18:46:
: : I'd always assumed Darcy had called to give her the letter, and, finding her out had gone to look for her. It isn't obvious in the video, but in the book we are told that she walked for ~ 2 hours, and only went into the Rosings grounds near the end of her walk.
: : Anna
:
: ___________________
: I had never thought of that, Anna. Interesting idea, but then, I don't think he could have given her the letter in front of other people- that would be a terrible breach of etiquette- only engaged persons were allowed to exchange letters. No, Darcy would not have wanted to raise any speculation of that kind, he needed to hand-deliver it and in private to avoid gossip.
: Cheryl
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Yes, and after all, did he not tell her that he had been waiting in the woods for her for nearly an hour, hoping she'd come that way. He must have gone with Col. Fitzwilliam afterwards merely to pay his respects, and I agree that he probably did not wish another confrontation with Lizzie.
Tay.
Posted by 8 on November 04, 1996 at 18:19:56:
: : : After watching this scene numerous times, I am struck by the various
: : : expressions that Darcy shows during this scene.
Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 18:22:33:
Amy,
Good luck! Shall await your comeback patiently, hopefully this site won't falter without you!
Tay
Follow Ups:
Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 18:26:00:
Hi!
I'm only two years older (16-Georgianna's age), and I've been in here only a few days. But it is really okay, nothing bad. I'm sure you'll love it here as much as I do, especially if you're as fond of P&P2 as I am! It's really neat to know there's also some younger people out there like me who love P&P. Most like SVH, you know?
With fond farewells,
Tay
Posted by Donna on November 04, 1996 at 18:29:40:
: : The second nit is that Jane, in her first letter, refers to the Gardiner children as her nieces and nephews. Aren't they her cousins??
: : Linda
:
: ___________________
: The cousin thing bothered me for awhile too. I just figured that since there was such a large age difference, back then, they were more like nieces and nephews than cousins.
: Stefanie
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I think she was refering to her mothers nieces and nephews being the Gardiners childern.
ciao Donna
Posted by Paula on November 04, 1996 at 18:29:48:
By the way she wasn't really playing the piano. Carl Davis played all the pieces in the film.
: Bernie
: ___________________
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I'd assume it was Ehle singing also, but I think the actors played the fortepianos and the music we hear is Carl Davis's playing--it was dubbed over the actors' playing, according to "The Making of P&P." There's a funny anecdote about the actress who played Mary Bennet, who said she practiced so much she nearly drove her fiance mad.
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