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Posted by Grace on November 04, 1996 at 13:40:14:
: : : Last night the BBC was celebrating its 60th birthday. As part of the celebrations, awards for all time greats were made. Favourite all time Drama Serial was of course Pride and Prejudice (2). Favourite all time actor ( as voted by over half a million besotted Brits) was Colin Firth. Colin wasn't at the presentation ceremony, but he gave a very witty acceptance speech from a poolside in LA.
: : : Bernie
: : : PS. His hair has been dyed dark, and the mutton chops are back (although they're not as large as in P&P)! He also gave us one of those SMILES, sigh!
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : : Bernie, you never even gave us a hint that this was firthcoming...excuse me, forthcoming. With just a bit of notice, we all could have gotten satellite dishes and been ready ---- not to mention, some of us chartering flights so as to join you in your living room. Have you no group loyalty??
: : Grace
:
: ___________________
: Grace,
: Actually, I had no idea that this was on myself, until I switched on the box and there he was! The problem is that I don't get home from work 'till around 10.30 pm, so I missed all the fliers for the event.
: Incidentally, the National TV awards were held last month (I know this was mentioned on the Firthlist!). P&P2, Colin Firth and Jennifer Ehle were all nominated. I got my husband to (try to) video if for me. I know that Colin and Jennifer didn't win, but I've no idea whether P&P 2 won the best drama award. My other half managed to cut this!!! For some inexplicable reason, none of the papers I looked at cited the results. There we have it!
: Bernie
:
: ___________________
___________________
: Bernie, you are forgiven.
As for your other half, there can be no excuse. Any man who cannot perform the most basic of marital duties.....programming the VCR......is not worth having.
With condolences on your choice of husband, Grace
Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on November 04, 1996 at 13:43:07:
: How old is the actress that plays Lizzie? Also, is she really singing in the Pemberly piano scene? I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but I am new here.
___________________
She was 25 years old at the time of filming (I think). I do believe she sang in the Pemberley scene. In the "Making of Pride and Prejudice" it says that all actors/actresses who required music and singing lessons got them. By the way she wasn't really playing the piano. Carl Davis played all the pieces in the film.
Bernie
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Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 13:50:35:
: : : Yes, but in the book, this encounter is in the afternoon (confusingly called morning - morning extended to dinner time in 1812). I also think that Georgiana has gone to bed in P&P2 - after all she is much younger than the rest of the party.
: : : Anna
: :
: : ___________________
: : She is 16!
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
: Someone should have told that to Mr. and Mrs. Bennet where it regards Lydia!!!!
: Annie
___________________
Uhum. Lydia is fifteen.
Tay.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Linda on November 04, 1996 at 14:02:03:
: : : She is 16!
: : : Ann
: :
: : ___________________
: : Someone should have told that to Mr. and Mrs. Bennet where it regards Lydia!!!!
: : Annie
: ___________________
: Uhum. Lydia is fifteen.
: Tay.
___________________
"In a short time I shall have a daughter married. Mrs. Wickham! How well it sounds. And she was only sixteen last June."
Linda
Posted by Ann on November 04, 1996 at 14:24:34:
: I have a BBC video of P&P from 1985; I got it from Critics Choice; I also got from them a 1972 'Emma'; they have a few othe JA dramatizations, mostly BBC things.As for the 1967 and 1980 productions, I do not know if they exist on video. I've read about them though. It seems that the woman who played Jane in A & E's has a mother who played Jane in the'67 version. I remember being at a party around 1980 (not the most recent party I've been to; almost, though) and pretending to faint when someone mentioned 'Darcy.'Therefore I believe this 1980 version to exist, somewhere.
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The 1985 BBC version is the 1980 version. The copywrite dates vary on that one.
Ann
Posted by Hilary on November 04, 1996 at 14:25:36:
:
: Yes, I imagine they would both feel very awkward after the shock had worn off and the essense of the information had been conveyed. An elopement was an embarrassment to a family. And she's also confessing that her sister is basically a trollop. The sexual inferences that could be drawn, too, were likely very uncomfortable for the both of them.
: It was definitely a "very private and emotional matter," as you say. I can't help wondering, though, how Darcy would have reacted had the matter been less private but just as emotional. Say, for instance, that Jane had been writing to tell Lizzy that Mrs. Bennet had fallen ill and was on her death bed. How Darcy would have consoled and soothed Lizzy! How he would have done everything in his power to make her comfortable! He would probably have offered her his carriage (or one of his carriages, I should say, for he has several) for the trip back to Longbourne, maybe even accompanied her himself. He would have never left her side from that moment on, I'm convinced. But JA must have her own way and deprive us of a such a touching scene by throwing more roadblocks into the lovers' path!
: I thought CF's Darcy too harsh however in that scene. He really sounds cold when he says. "I'm afraid you have long been desiring my absence." And they leave out the part in the novel when he says that he has nothing to plead in excuse for staying longer but "real though unavailing concern." Darcy leaves Lizzy some clues that he really cares before he leaves the inn in the novel. But I guess in the film it would have reduced the suspense.
: -Arnessa
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Arnessa, I always enjoy your posts! I hadn't contemplated that possibility, and it does give pleasant food for thought indeed.
I also agree about those missing clues that were in the book but not the film. He is so filled with concern at first, (and they got that bit right), that its a pity the follow through wasn't slightly gentler.
Hilary
Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 14:26:33:
"I'd soon rather call her mother a wit".
There is absolutely no denying its supreme rudeness, but I cannot help just the same loving that statment . . . and the way he says it. Darcy is so casual, leaning against the fireplace, looking down nonchantly (stirring up the fire?) while he gives one of his pert remarks - something to rival even Lizzie's! Don't get me wrong - I love Lizzie dearly, yet just the same, I cannot help but love that remark. It came so fluent, as if it hardly required a second thought! But, oh, how he will soon regret it!
Any other comments/disagreements?
Tay
Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on November 04, 1996 at 14:29:48:
: : I also think that Georgiana has gone to bed in P&P2 - after all she is much younger than the rest of the party.
: : Anna
:
: ___________________
: Very true, but can you imagine Lydia, who is even younger, going meekly off to bed while others were still up enjoying themselves? ;-)
: But that really was a bit early for Georgiana to be leaving the party - it was not yet completely dark outside when the Gardiner's carriage departed.
: Joan, too
___________________
Don't forget that it is in the middle of summer and Britain is much further north than the States. Up north it doesn't get dark until 11 pm. In Scotland it stays light even longer than that.
Bernie
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Posted by genie on November 04, 1996 at 14:32:02:
: : : I love the way the scene is played where Darcy comes to the inn just
: : : after Lizzy gets the letters from Jane. The look of concern and
: : : helplessness he has when he doesn't know what is wrong. He wants to
: : : do something so badly. He is so concerned that he actually takes her
: : : hand without it being offered -- and you see him realize it and
: : : reluctantly release it. It shows a side of Darcy that has not been
: : : revealed to Lizzy before -- and she was too upset to actually see it.
: : : Anne
: :
: : ___________________
: : Ever since I noticed it, Firth's twitch when Ehle says "You
: : know him too well to doubt the rest" has bothered me. If you
: : don't notice it, it seems natural, but if you see it, it
: : seems like an actor's trick. (One small complaint in an
: : otherwise wonderful performance.)
: : Ann
: : (we've become annundated!!)
:
: ___________________
:
: I love that little shiver. What she said hit him like a ton of bricks.
: ooops Donna
___________________
I always thought "the twitch" was bad editing!
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on November 04, 1996 at 14:32:34:
:
: : : : Yes, but in the book, this encounter is in the afternoon (confusingly called morning - morning extended to dinner time in 1812). I also think that Georgiana has gone to bed in P&P2 - after all she is much younger than the rest of the party.
: : : : Anna
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : She is 16!
: : : Ann
: :
: : ___________________
: : Someone should have told that to Mr. and Mrs. Bennet where it regards Lydia!!!!
: : Annie
: ___________________
: Uhum. Lydia is fifteen.
: Tay.
___________________
She was fifteen when she almost eloped with Wickham--the previous summer.
Ann
Posted by Eric on November 04, 1996 at 14:40:50:
: : I thought Bingley was trying to change the subject so as to spare Darcy any more of Miss Bingley's unkind words, but Miss Bingley insisted on pushing Darcy to the end. This is compatible with Bingley's awareness of his friend's disposition, of the uncomfortableness of the conversation, of his sister's lack of decorum in so severely criticizing Darcy's guest, and his own affinity for Lizzie and Jane.
:
: ___________________
: But at this point in the story Bingley was still blissfully ignorant of Darcy's feelings for Elizabeth. Darcy only made the confession of it to him when they went back to Netherfield, prior to that Bingley had no idea of Darcy's feelings. The production shows Darcy's feelings much more openly than does the novel, and it is quite likely that Bingley would not have noticed (although of course there were enough signs for the Gardiners to pick up on it quickly).
: But the arguement that Bingley would not want his sisters to insult his friend's guest (and the sister of the woman he loves!) certainly does hold very true. It must have made him uncomfortable to hear Jane's sister so denegrated, and would have risen to her defence without any reference to Darcy.
: Ann
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Sorry, misunderstood. "Disposition" - Darcy did not like the kind of silly conversation on which Bingley's sister was embarked, nor did Darcy's sense of decorum comport with dissing a guest, even a recently departed guest. I did not intend to imply Bingley was aware of Darcy's feelings for Lizzie, only that he was aware of Darcy's general disposition. But you are right - Bingley didn't know Darcy wanted to marry Lizzie, et al.
Posted by Eric on November 04, 1996 at 14:44:18:
: : : Probably port they were drinking. Coffee for the ladies, port for the men.
: :
: : ___________________
: : Men have all the fun ;-).
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
:
:
: Had ;-)
: Anne
___________________
Depends on whether or not you like port. If you've never had it, don't. Stick to starboard.
Eric
Posted by Eric on November 04, 1996 at 14:48:29:
: : :
: : :
: : : This is really more of a response to the entire thread rather than to just your comments. Most of these minor discrepancies I had already noticed, though some I had not. It is interesting to note how deeply all of us wish P&P2 were even better than it was, ferreting out even its most insignificant flaws. But along these lines, I have a more philosophical question:
: : : Is a thing of beauty (such as P&P2) rendered more beautiful by its imperfections, less beautiful, or have they no effect?
: : : Personally, I am not prepared for perfect beauty for it shows forth my own decided want in that regard and inspires in me not appreciation, but resentment. Perhaps I am perversely egotistical. Nevertheless, as I watch the movie and read the book, I am finding them more approachable as I see them wanting of absolute perfection.
: :
: : ___________________
: : Perfect beauty is certainly less interesting than beauty with flaws. The same goes for characters. Were either Elizabeth or Darcy perfect, we would find them insufferably boring. There can be no evolution, no change, in perfection; it is necissarily static. If there is a choice between the static and the dynamic, I choose the dynamic every time.
: : We can not appreciate perfect beauty to the same degree as flawed beauty. It is, after all, the flaws that point out the perfections.
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
:
: Nicely said all of you. I can't tell you how much I enjoy all your comments. PP2 is beautiful enough for me.
: Sylvia
___________________
If boredom is a flaw, however, it follows that perfection would not be boring. On the other hand, perfect people (in this life, anyway) are not real people but false charicatures. There is no connection between myself and a perfect person, but there is between myself and the imperfect people of P&P2
Eric
Posted by Hilary on November 04, 1996 at 14:51:33:
: : : : But that really was a bit early for Georgiana to be leaving the party - it was not yet completely dark outside when the Gardiner's carriage departed.
: : : : Joan, too
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Maybe Georgianna chose to take her leave since the only ones left for her to visit with were the Bingley sisters. (Ugh!)
: : : -Candace
: : This episode is occurring close to midsummer, when it isn't completely dark until 11pm in Northern England - not late to bed, but not indecently early either. Avoiding the Bingley sisters would been an added plus.
: : Anna
:
: ___________________
: But, she should have been there--she was the hostess!
: Perhaps she was attending to the rest of the "large party of friends" ;-).
: Ann
___________________
Could we let her off the hook by saying she was attending the call of nature?
Hilary
Posted by Bernie on November 04, 1996 at 14:53:25:
:
: : Johanne, I don't think this picture is in the series. I think it's one of their publicity
: : shot. Jennifer Ehle fan club links is included below, it was supplied by Bernie several
: : days ago.
: :
: : Enjoy!
: : Zimei
:
: ___________________
: I love this picture. It is (part of) my wallpaper for some time now.
: But I think Bernie got this picture from the FoF site:
: http://www.iupui.edi/~rogersc/pictures.html
: (Darcy & Lizzie)
: Margot
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No, I just supplied the link!
Bernie
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Posted by Donna on November 04, 1996 at 14:54:20:
:
: : : : I love the way the scene is played where Darcy comes to the inn just
: : : : after Lizzy gets the letters from Jane. The look of concern and
: : : : helplessness he has when he doesn't know what is wrong. He wants to
: : : : do something so badly. He is so concerned that he actually takes her
: : : : hand without it being offered -- and you see him realize it and
: : : : reluctantly release it. It shows a side of Darcy that has not been
: : : : revealed to Lizzy before -- and she was too upset to actually see it.
: : : : Anne
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Ever since I noticed it, Firth's twitch when Ehle says "You
: : : know him too well to doubt the rest" has bothered me. If you
: : : don't notice it, it seems natural, but if you see it, it
: : : seems like an actor's trick. (One small complaint in an
: : : otherwise wonderful performance.)
: : : Ann
: : : (we've become annundated!!)
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : I love that little shiver. What she said hit him like a ton of bricks.
: : ooops Donna
: ___________________
: I always thought "the twitch" was bad editing!
___________________
That just shows how bad he feels.It could have been his sister.
Donna
Posted by Eric on November 04, 1996 at 14:55:21:
: : : : : One thing that always bothered me about Lydia's invitation to Brighton was the way Kitty reacted to it. She had a right to be jealous, but as she herself said, she was not Mrs. Forster's "particular friend," and Lydia was. It doesn't matter that Kitty was older; Lydia was closer to Mrs. Forster. It was only natural that, if Mrs. Forster was going to invite one of the Bennet girls, she was going to invite Lydia to go with her.
: : : : : Did this bother anyone else or do you think that maybe Kitty had the right to the invitation (even though neither one of them should have been allowed to go)?
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : :
: : : : Of course kitty was way off base! She is immature, selfish, and insipid, and almost completely out of control when she's around Lydia. Kitty is not rational, and so makes a mountain out of a mole-hill when Lydia gets the invitation. Of course, Lydia shouldn't be going either, but the mere fact that she does get to go clues us in to how much the Bennet family is malfunctioning at this point (Candace? Where are you with your dysfunctional family theories?). What was Mr. Bennet thinking?
: : : : - K
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Lydia is 15 years old, I know my parents would not let me go with people other then family unless they were very good friends and reliable people. Mrs. Foster did seem to be very silly and Mr. Foster to old to be able to watch over Lydia's whereabouts. Also Mr.B. had really no insight to Lydia really,{she wanted his attention} he just knew he did want to be annoyed by Lydia if she stayed home. I think Lydia thought since everyone liked Wickham including Lizzie, Mr.B and Mrs.B. she thought it was ok to take off with Wickham. Maybe Mrs. B. idea was right the whole family should of went then they could see Lydia in action. Maybe Kitty would of found her out. Really the only thing Lydia really wanted was the right kind of instruction from both her parents. You can't always blame the kids.
: : :
: : : ciao Donna
: :
: : ___________________
: : Mr. Bennet was thinking, I believe, what he claimed to be thinking: that Lydia must make a public spectacle of herself someplace before she learns, that no fortune-hunter would want her (she had no fortune), that Brighton offered an opportunity to let her make a spectacle of herself and get thoroughly embarrassed at comparatively little expense to himself and with a family that, on the surface, certainly appears respectable and responsible. He misunderstood Lydia in one particular alone. He honestly thought her capable of being embarrassed, of being shamed. He misunderstood the Forsters in two particulars. One, Mrs. Forster had to have been a silly, foolish lady if she wanted Lydia's company, and two, Col. Forster would necessarily be too busy to ride herd on both of them.
: : Lydia wanted not only the proper instruction from her parents, but the wit to comprehend it. You cannot always blame the parents, either. That Mr. Bennet was more judicious in his insights than his resolve is obvious. He failed Lydia. He should have been more resolute. Lydia, however, is a silly ass of a girl - and for that she bears full responsibility herself.
:
: ___________________
:
: At 15 years old, I beg to differ a parent is totally responsible. I have a 13 year old son and he would run wild if I let him. Mr. B. took the easy way out. When my children don't behave if I am present or not it is a total embarrassment to me. You must not have children because Mr. B's way of thinking is wrong. I have no doubt about it. Every child has wit she was never made to use it and where does that fault lie. Maybe we all should give up on kids like Lydia.
: I would never give up. By the law now a days parents are held responsible until they are 18.
: Joan too your a teacher we need your response
: Donna
___________________
To be truthful, I have three children. And while the law may hold parents responsible until the child is 18, the child is quite capable of making decisions for him/herself well before. Indeed, I agree that Mr. Bennet took an easy way out. I would by no means detract from his culpability. But Mr. B did not go chasing after every officer in Meryton and Mr. B did not go off with Mr. Wickham in some silly elopement and Mr. B certainly had (in his own imperfect way) warned all his daughters of behaving so. Simply because Lydia was 15 does not make her folly Mr. B's fault. I can only repeat what I said earlier - Lydia wanted not only proper instruction (and she did want it) but also the wit to comprehend it. For the former, we may justly blame Mr. B. For the latter, Lydia must bear the blame.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Dina on November 04, 1996 at 14:57:01:
: In the archives I saw a discussion of the similarity between Lizzy's and Georgiana's clothes at their first meet. Has anyone else noticed that this continues ?
: At the dinner at Pemberly they are both wearing simple cream frocks (much lower cut on Lizzy, but then Georgiana isn't "out" yet), and, so far as is possible given the differnces in colour and texture, they have the same haistyle.
: They contrast stongly with the Bingley sisters. I wonder if this is an oblique way of telling us that the Bingley sisters are vulgarly overdressed - they are the children of a nouveau riche merchant. Georgiana is even richer than they are and her restraint is presumably a matter of good taste rather than limited funds. Or maybe it is just because of Georgiana's youth.
: any opinions?
: Anna.
___________________
I have noticed this before. I think the modern equivalent is Madonna. All her career she has either set or followed the latest fashion trends. This does not by any means suggest that she has any style (see: Grace Kelly). I think the sisters Bingley are hopelessly in fashion. But Lizzy being she of smaller pocketbook has as much style as she can afford and that fits her life style (If she lived in the 90's she'd belong to a gym and have work out clothes). The Bingley's would never have sensible shoes!!!
Posted by Bernie on November 04, 1996 at 14:58:39:
: : : : Last night the BBC was celebrating its 60th birthday. As part of the celebrations, awards for all time greats were made. Favourite all time Drama Serial was of course Pride and Prejudice (2). Favourite all time actor ( as voted by over half a million besotted Brits) was Colin Firth. Colin wasn't at the presentation ceremony, but he gave a very witty acceptance speech from a poolside in LA.
: : : : Bernie
: : : : PS. His hair has been dyed dark, and the mutton chops are back (although they're not as large as in P&P)! He also gave us one of those SMILES, sigh!
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : : Bernie, you never even gave us a hint that this was firthcoming...excuse me, forthcoming. With just a bit of notice, we all could have gotten satellite dishes and been ready ---- not to mention, some of us chartering flights so as to join you in your living room. Have you no group loyalty??
: : : Grace
: :
: : ___________________
: : Grace,
: : Actually, I had no idea that this was on myself, until I switched on the box and there he was! The problem is that I don't get home from work 'till around 10.30 pm, so I missed all the fliers for the event.
: : Incidentally, the National TV awards were held last month (I know this was mentioned on the Firthlist!). P&P2, Colin Firth and Jennifer Ehle were all nominated. I got my husband to (try to) video if for me. I know that Colin and Jennifer didn't win, but I've no idea whether P&P 2 won the best drama award. My other half managed to cut this!!! For some inexplicable reason, none of the papers I looked at cited the results. There we have it!
: : Bernie
: :
: : ___________________
:
: ___________________
:
: : Bernie, you are forgiven.
: As for your other half, there can be no excuse. Any man who cannot perform the most basic of marital duties.....programming the VCR......is not worth having.
: With condolences on your choice of husband, Grace
:
___________________
He's normally very good about that sort of thing. He was in a bit of a rush and stuck in a tape without rewinding it !!
Bernie
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Eric on November 04, 1996 at 15:01:36:
: Even when speaking as a teacher I would not consider my opinion to be any more worthy than that of a parent, but for what it's worth, legally speaking parents are held responsible by the courts for the actions of their children until the age of 18, and can be (though often are not) held liable for damage intentionally done by a child, and have in some instances been "punished" when their child habitually cuts school, but in reality such prosecutions tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
: As regards the behavior of a child, parents do have the "moral" responsibility to do the best job that they can to teach the chld right from wrong and to help them to grow into a responsible adult. However, many many anecdotal examples can be given of children whose parents did a terrible job raising them, but the kid turned out exceptionally well in spite of the parents - and examples can also be given in which exemplary parents have done everything within their power have a child who reisits all of their efforts and turns out poorly in spite of everything that was done to "correct" them.
: I have a good friend (also a teacher) who is the biologial mother of 2 sons, but she and her husband really wanted a girl, and decided to adopt one who needed a home. They gave their adopted daughter exactly the same kind of upbringing that had worked very well for their sons, but somehow it did not "take" with their daughter. As she became more and more uncooperative and belligerant, her parents hearts were breaking over the fact that they could not seem to reach her. She would not cooperate with therapists who tried to help, and ended up in serious trouble with the law. At age 16, she was removed from their home, and they still have not got over it. To them, it is as if their child had died.
: The material point of this example is, that although in general parents do have significant responsibility in the raising of their children, in some cases nothing that they try seems to work, so I am reluctant to assume that the parents should instantly be blamed when children don't turn out well. (Though, on the other hand, over the years I have had quite a few students for whom IMHO the best thing that could have happened for them would have been to be able to take them from their parents and place them in a family that would care for them properly!)
: I do think that Lydia's parents were "to blame" for a great deal of her improper behavior - she was spoiled by her mother and ignored or "put down" by her father - but I also think that she might still have been on the wild side even if they had been firm with her. She was quite willful and determined.
: JA tells us that Kitty improved after being removed from Lydia's - and Mrs. B's - influence, but one doesn't get the impression that JA thinks that the same would have necessarily been effective with Lydia. However, JA does tell us that once married, she did not continue in her wild and flirtatious ways, but settled down into married life and remained faithful to Wickham. So she did not turn out to be all bad after all. :-)
: Joan, too
___________________
Well said, madam, in every particular.
Eric
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