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Posted by Arnessa on November 04, 1996 at 01:20:31:
: ___________________
: I don't see it that way. Although he would feel some guilt about not letting people know about Wickham, he says 'You have long been wanting my absence' because he is aware that he has barged in on a very private and emotional matter, and that from Lizzie's perspective he therefore does not belong there at that time. He also cannot help her more than he has just done by listening. He doesn't want to get her hopes up by promising help that may have no result, even if he is planning to track Lydia down, so he doesn't even mention that possibility. She misinterprets, thinking that he now won't want to see her because of the family disgrace.
: Hilary
___________________
Yes, I imagine they would both feel very awkward after the shock had worn off and the essense of the information had been conveyed. An elopement was an embarrassment to a family. And she's also confessing that her sister is basically a trollop. The sexual inferences that could be drawn, too, were likely very uncomfortable for the both of them.
It was definitely a "very private and emotional matter," as you say. I can't help wondering, though, how Darcy would have reacted had the matter been less private but just as emotional. Say, for instance, that Jane had been writing to tell Lizzy that Mrs. Bennet had fallen ill and was on her death bed. How Darcy would have consoled and soothed Lizzy! How he would have done everything in his power to make her comfortable! He would probably have offered her his carriage (or one of his carriages, I should say, for he has several) for the trip back to Longbourne, maybe even accompanied her himself. He would have never left her side from that moment on, I'm convinced. But JA must have her own way and deprive us of a such a touching scene by throwing more roadblocks into the lovers' path!
I thought CF's Darcy too harsh however in that scene. He really sounds cold when he says. "I'm afraid you have long been desiring my absence." And they leave out the part in the novel when he says that he has nothing to plead in excuse for staying longer but "real though unavailing concern." Darcy leaves Lizzy some clues that he really cares before he leaves the inn in the novel. But I guess in the film it would have reduced the suspense.
-Arnessa
Posted by Donna on November 04, 1996 at 01:25:23:
: : : By so doing, she gave up her freedom, independence and subjected herself to the power of a man who was stronger than herself and, for that matter, stronger than her father or any other man she has ever known.
: Since she never had either much practical freedom or any
: financial freedom before she married Darcy, I can not see
: that she lost anything by marrying. She was not independent
: when she met him, and would more likely gain some independence
: from the marriage--certainly financially (wealth allows more
: freedom than poverty).
: Even walking alone the three miles to Netherfield was thought
: by the Bingleys (and Darcy) to be an extraordinary and
: undignified liberty, which a fashionable young lady should
: not dare to attempt. She could not go where she liked or do
: what she wished without her father's permission and a
: guardian to look after her (at least until she became an old
: maid). She had no money of own, only that which her father
: could give her. Few women of the day were in Lady C.'s
: position of having control over their own lives and finances.
: She also grew up with the knowledge that, if none of the
: family made a good marriage, they would be booted out of
: their house with little to fall back on. If neither Lizzy's
: nor Jane's marriage took place, the Bennets would become, on
: the death of Mr. Bennet, a poorer version of the
: Dashwoods. There is no freedom in poverty.
: Ann
___________________
Lizzie put the burden on Jane to marry well. If she felt pressured she would have said yes to Darcy the first time. No matter what the circumstances that would be a ruthless survior. She asked Jane "You do not think ill of me." Neither seemed to be worried about it to me. Jane was going to marry Bingley because Mr. Darcy would see to that.
Mr. Bennet didn't really seem worried about it either. The only one that worried was Mrs. B. They both said they would like to marry for love. That was their first priority.
I beleive that was JA belief. Lizzie marry Mr. Darcy was like icing on the cake. The family was twice as secure.
IMHO Donna
She had independence and freedom that is why she was able to walk to Nfield. Independence is also a feeling and if you feel free you are. Marrying Darcy she would have more feedom she would have the money to take a carriage. He could never keep her if she didn't want to stay because of her own self convidence. If you love someone you are never totally free. She didn't compromise herself.
Donna
Posted by Joan, too on November 04, 1996 at 01:37:40:
: Maybe this has been discussed before I came along but it has
: always bothered me why Wickham should single out Lydia. He must
: have concluded somehow that Darcy was succuming to the charms of
: Elizabeth. But he had not communication with Darcy to really be
: sure. By marrying Lydia he felt he may have a chance to form a
: lasting tie to the Darcy money. But if D & E never married he would
: be strapped with one very tormenting and silly wife. Or is he just
: an addicted seducer? The scenes at the inn when Lydia is pleading
: to be taken out he seems to be waiting to be discovered by Darcy.
: It is all very confusing. Sorry, I haven't taken the time to research
: this in the book. Maybe J.A. gives some explanation. Hope you all
: can help. Thanks, Shelagh
___________________
"Colonel Foster did own that he had often suspected some partiality, especially on Lydia's side, but nothing to give him any alarm." I would not be at all surprised to learn that it was actually Lydia herself who proposed it. Wickham had found himself "obliged to leave the regiment on account of some debts of honor" and Lydia very likely invited herself along. In Mrs. Gardiner's letter to Lizzie she writes that Darcy's "first object with her [Lydia], he acknowledged, had been to persuade her to quit her present disgraceful situation, and return to her friends as soon as they could be prevailed on to receive her, offering his assistance as far as it would go. But he found Lydia absolutely resolved on remaining where she was. She cared for none of her friends, she wanted no help of his, she would not hear of leaving Wickham. She was sure they would be married at some time or other, and it did not much signify when." It would appear that Wickham just took advantage of her forwardness to have a fling. Wickham told Darcy that he had never intended to marry Lydia.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Shelagh on November 04, 1996 at 01:49:45:
: : For those with the full version of the tapes:
: : I am a bit puzzled by Darcy's body language back at Pemberley
: : after hearing about Lydia and Wickham (just before he so
: : beautifully puts Miss Bingley in her place). His body language
: : is so tight. From that, I would conclude that Firth
: : interpreted Darcy as being afraid that Lizzy will blame him
: : for what happened to her sister. But I'm still not satisfied
: : by that.
: : Any opinions,
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
: I think he is struggling in his own mind regarding what he can do and how it can be done without anyone questioning how he knows about it and why he should be involved at all. He must still come to terms with the feelings that he has always had about keeping his personal affairs private, and now he is going to have to make at least some of them more public.
: Joan, too
___________________
It is the morning after the dinner party at Pemberly.
Darcy has woken early with Elizabeth's vision in his mind. His heart is bursting.
He must speak to her. He is convinced that she is open to a renewed offer. He
jumps out of bed and prepares for the ride to town. As he rides he rehearses
what he will say to her. Is there any real hope? Yes, yes he must speak. Then
he arrives to see her so aggitated and he immediately takes over her care taking
her hand to relieve some of the pressure of his heart. Now he cannot speak as he
intended. But gradually as she reveals what Wickham has done he realizes that he
is the only one who can help and it gives him a golden opportunity to do a genuine
kindness for Elizabeth and her family. I came to this conclusion after the walk
where she thanks him before the second proposal when he says "If you must thank me
let it be for yourself. Much as I respect them your family owes me nothing. I
believe I was thinking only of you." Oh God I can't stand it - Shelagh
Posted by Tay on November 04, 1996 at 01:59:42:
:
: : Johanne,
: : Somehow, the picture did not come on my screen. Can you briefly tell me what it shows; maybe I've seen it before?
: : Thanks. Tay.
:
: ___________________
: Tay, the picture is from Jennifer Ehle fan club site, if
: you still have problem viewing the picture, the link is
: listed below. This picture is also on FoF site, where
: they have a collection of Colin Firth pictures:
: http://www.iupui.edu/~rogersc/pictures.html
:
: I hope this helps.
: Zimei
___________________
Zimei,
Thanks a whole bunch! I saw that wonderful pix, and it
happens to be a great favourite. I have seen it before anyways.
Thanks again, Tay
Posted by Shelagh on November 04, 1996 at 02:05:23:
: : Maybe this has been discussed before I came along but it has
: : always bothered me why Wickham should single out Lydia. He must
: : have concluded somehow that Darcy was succuming to the charms of
: : Elizabeth. But he had not communication with Darcy to really be
: : sure. By marrying Lydia he felt he may have a chance to form a
: : lasting tie to the Darcy money. But if D & E never married he would
: : be strapped with one very tormenting and silly wife. Or is he just
: : an addicted seducer? The scenes at the inn when Lydia is pleading
: : to be taken out he seems to be waiting to be discovered by Darcy.
: : It is all very confusing. Sorry, I haven't taken the time to research
: : this in the book. Maybe J.A. gives some explanation. Hope you all
: : can help. Thanks, Shelagh
:
: ___________________
: "Colonel Foster did own that he had often suspected some partiality, especially on Lydia's side, but nothing to give him any alarm." I would not be at all surprised to learn that it was actually Lydia herself who proposed it. Wickham had found himself "obliged to leave the regiment on account of some debts of honor" and Lydia very likely invited herself along. In Mrs. Gardiner's letter to Lizzie she writes that Darcy's "first object with her [Lydia], he acknowledged, had been to persuade her to quit her present disgraceful situation, and return to her friends as soon as they could be prevailed on to receive her, offering his assistance as far as it would go. But he found Lydia absolutely resolved on remaining where she was. She cared for none of her friends, she wanted no help of his, she would not hear of leaving Wickham. She was sure they would be married at some time or other, and it did not much signify when." It would appear that Wickham just took advantage of her forwardness to have a fling. Wickham told Darcy that he had never intended to marry Lydia.
: Joan, too
___________________
Thank you Joan, too that makes a lot of sense. I had forgotten to consider
Lydia's wiles. From her letter to Mrs. Foster she revealed how proud she was to consider herself
Mrs. Wickham without any stop at the church planned. It was such a great scandal to be sleeping with a
man without benefit of clergy. Come to think of it she is the one most like her mother. Do you suppose
that Mrs. B used some devious means to snare her husband?
Posted by Zimei on November 04, 1996 at 02:21:17:
: ___________________
: I get the same impression. It's a great acting job by Colin Firth. His changes of expression are
: subtle but very realistic. In the initial look (while Elizabeth is playing) Darcy's eyes shift briefly
: from Elizabeth to Georgiana then back. (I missed this the first 10 or 20 times I watched this
: scene -- and even now I sometimes miss it if I blink!) His look of contentment is more pronounced
: (slightly) after his eyes refocus on Elizabeth. I get the impression that he is thoroughly enjoying
: having the two women he most cares about side by side in his house, getting to know each
: other. It is enough for the moment -- in fact, it is probably all he can deal with emotionally at that
: moment.
: Just a thought.
: kathleen
___________________
I also love the subtle change of expression during the first look. That hint of smile increases as he watches Lizzy. The change is really subtle (amazing performance by Colin) but if you rewind the tape it is quite evident (in reverse of course).
Everytime I get to the Pemberly music scene I try to restrain myself not to rewind it for several times in fear of wearing my favorite part of the tape out, but I haven't succeeded once. The scene is trully breath-taking - I found myself literally holding my breath as I going through those looks, I shall die of suffocation should they make the scene any longer :)
And That Walk - I also love Darcy's elegant walk through the gallery in the dark with his dogs later in the scene. It's lovely to see how his mind is immersed in thoughts of Lizzy in those solitary moments.
Zimei
Posted by Ann2 on November 04, 1996 at 03:00:09:
:
:
: : I agree with you Paula that the extra scenes with Darcy make him much more human than he would have been - also much more sexy. Did anyone else notice the dogs lying by the door of his room while he's getting dressed - I really liked that touch.
: Yes - it also resonates nicely with Lizzy playing with the dog at Netherfield.
: Anna
___________________
I have been trying to sort this dog thing out - hesitant to call it doggy. The dog in the gallery seems so thin and like a race dog. The netherfield one is big indeed, dalmatiner?. And is the one on the floor big to?
I thought I saw the same big one in a film made on Burnettīs Little Lord Fauntleroy recently. Maybe a famous and good-natured Brittish movie dog!? Sorry if I take the magic away.
Ann2
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on November 04, 1996 at 03:38:44:
: I have been trying to sort this dog thing out - hesitant to call it doggy. The dog in the gallery seems so thin and like a race dog. The netherfield one is big indeed, dalmatiner?. And is the one on the floor big to?
: I thought I saw the same big one in a film made on Burnettīs Little Lord Fauntleroy recently. Maybe a famous and good-natured Brittish movie dog!? Sorry if I take the magic away.
: Ann2
___________________
The Netherfield dog is indeed a dalmatian, and it looks as if the pair in the gallery and the one in the floor might be greyhounds, though the lighting is poor in the gallery and they are on camera so briefly. Greyhounds were considered to be "the epitome of elegance and grace among canines."
Joan, too
Posted by Bernie on November 04, 1996 at 04:22:24:
Last night the BBC was celebrating its 60th birthday. As part of the celebrations, awards for all time greats were made. Favourite all time Drama Serial was of course Pride and Prejudice (2). Favourite all time actor ( as voted by over half a million besotted Brits) was Colin Firth. Colin wasn't at the presentation ceremony, but he gave a very witty acceptance speech from a poolside in LA.
Bernie
PS. His hair has been dyed dark, and the mutton chops are back (although they're not as large as in P&P)! He also gave us one of those SMILES, sigh!
Posted by Amy on November 04, 1996 at 05:33:15:
Mr dear fellow addicts,
I'll only be half here for a couple of weeks. Will delete posts and keep up the archive, watch for porn, but not post and think as a participant or take the time to make funny pictures and welcome newcomers and stuff like that. Any hobby time I have must go to rebabilitate my other sadly neglected site, the World Nap Organization, since it will be mentioned in the December issue of Glamour. Back with you wholeheartedly as soon as that is accomplished and I meet a couple real work deadlines.
Affectionately,
Amy
Link:
Posted by Bernie on November 04, 1996 at 08:32:01:
: Last night the BBC was celebrating its 60th birthday. As part of the celebrations, awards for all time greats were made. Favourite all time Drama Serial was of course Pride and Prejudice (2). Favourite all time actor ( as voted by over half a million besotted Brits) was Colin Firth. Colin wasn't at the presentation ceremony, but he gave a very witty acceptance speech from a poolside in LA.
: Bernie
: PS. His hair has been dyed dark, and the mutton chops are back (although they're not as large as in P&P)! He also gave us one of those SMILES, sigh!
___________________
: Bernie, you never even gave us a hint that this was firthcoming...excuse me, forthcoming. With just a bit of notice, we all could have gotten satellite dishes and been ready ---- not to mention, some of us chartering flights so as to join you in your living room. Have you no group loyalty??
Grace
Follow Ups:
Posted by Grace on November 04, 1996 at 08:46:23:
: : Its just his taking such care with his appearance that gets us all going.
: : : Hilary
: :
: : ___________________
: : Darcy dressing and bathing is a theme unique to P&P2 that serves several different purposes:
: : --It humanizes Darcy to be doing mundane things of everyday life, like washing his face. It makes him more real and closer to the audience, offsetting the distance of the book which is written from Lizzy's point of view.
: : --It shows Darcy's great wealth -- he has servants to pour water over his head in the tub and help him get dressed.
: : --Shows Colin being sexy (the steamy bathtub).
: : Though I understand these scenes were pretty controversial because they're a departure from the book, it works for me because of these reasons.
: :
:
: ___________________
Did anyone else notice the dogs lying by the door of his room while he's getting dressed - I really liked that touch.
___________________
: In that scene, weren't there also clothes left across the chairs and an unmade bed? More nice touches.
Grace
Posted by Myretta on November 04, 1996 at 08:49:54:
: : : :
: : : : indeed.com
: : : : taken
: : : :
: : : : thereitis.com
: : : : taken
: : : : ducktape
: : : : taken!
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : fitzwilliam.com pemberley.com
: : : not taken
: :
: : ___________________
: : Are you dedicated to the .com domain? Maybe some of the other "taken" names are not taken in .org?
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
.org is reserved for non-profit institutions. If, as I understand, this is Amy's business, I hope she does not fall into this category.
:
: daggy.org ?!
: soitseems.com (probably taken by clothing manufacturers)
:
: Hilary
___________________
Posted by Grace on November 04, 1996 at 08:56:54:
: : : Stop it! Stop it! What is happening to us? Where is the love, the obsession, the passion we once shared?
:
: ___________________
: Perhaps the 7 month itch? Or is it the transformation from passionate to companiate love?
: Hilary
___________________
:The seven month itch --- yes, that's it! Do you suppose A&E's rebroadcast could act as a second honeymoon, rekindling the flame?
Grace
Posted by Grace on November 04, 1996 at 09:17:47:
: : : : : : I think Lizzie should hire Hannah to work at Pemberly. Silly isn't it. Just based on what Uncle G. said about her.
: : : : : : ciao Donna
: : : : : ___________________
: : : : : I ahve always thought the same thing. Hannah is such a nice girl.
: : : : : mich
: : : ___________________
: : : : Me too, it would be so nice since her brother is already an under-gardener there, I'm sure she would be thrilled tobe in the "great house."
: : : : Cheryl
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Oh, why don't we just hire Hannah to sweep up around here? Delete dupe posts, make tea and spy.
: : : Amy
: :
: : ___________________
: : Excuse me but I am having an identity crisis. I could see myself and Hannah working at Pemberly witnessing
: : all the lovely felicity going on between Mr. & Mrs. Darcy. Anything to be in that beautiful house. Not that I like housework so much.
: : But do you think they would notice if I did a lousy job while I spied and drooled? Oh well, it's one way to be there.
:
: ___________________
:
: It would be better for her to work for Lizzie then at the Lamphton Inn. It is a fact that she would always be in service of some type so, why not the best place and for the best people around.
: Donna
___________________
: Let's be really good to Hannah....after she goes to work at Pemberley, she will be snubbed by Mr. Darcy's proud and conceited valet. Never able to get over the slight, she will be blindly prejudiced against him and unable to see that he is fally madly in love with her. Meanwhile, she is attracted by the easy, unaffected manners of the Gardiners' groomsman (the cute one with the white wig).To Hannah and all the other house staff, it is not known that this groomsman,whenever he is in town, tries to seduce the parlormaid, who happens to be the valet's beloved younger sister.
Need I continue?
Grace
Posted by Grace on November 04, 1996 at 09:41:16:
: :
: : : _________
: : : Grace - I spotted your reference to '84 Charing Cross Road' and wondered if you've seen the film with Anne Bancroft and Anthony Hopkins .
: : : : Janet
: : : __________
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : : Never saw it, but I did hear of it. (I get all sentimental about favorite books, to the point of being afraid of seeing them as films lest they disappoint. I would still be debating about seeing P&P2 if I had not just happened upon it on A&E.)
: : A hopeless case, Grace
:
: ___________________
: Grace and Janet, thanks for reminding me of this book. I know about it, and the film, but have not seen either; maybe now is the time. BTW I got the spelling of Oscar wrong. Probably neither here nor there.
: HIlary
___________________
: Hilary, you will enjoy the book. As for the 'k' in Oscar, I just assumed it was meant to be that way - hope it doesn't throw the Detroit library system off in their network search.
Another book everyone is talking about is 'The Rules', a how-to-secure-a-man bible. I want to get it and see what all the fuss is about... and of course, see how it applies to Lizzy, Jane, Lydia and Charlotte. That could make for a fun discussion. Anyone out there read this one?????
Grace
Posted by Donna on November 04, 1996 at 09:51:07:
: : I have been trying to sort this dog thing out - hesitant to call it doggy. The dog in the gallery seems so thin and like a race dog. The netherfield one is big indeed, dalmatiner?. And is the one on the floor big to?
: : I thought I saw the same big one in a film made on Burnettīs Little Lord Fauntleroy recently. Maybe a famous and good-natured Brittish movie dog!? Sorry if I take the magic away.
: : Ann2
:
: ___________________
: The Netherfield dog is indeed a dalmatian, and it looks as if the pair in the gallery and the one in the floor might be greyhounds, though the lighting is poor in the gallery and they are on camera so briefly. Greyhounds were considered to be "the epitome of elegance and grace among canines."
: Joan, too
___________________
It doesn't look like a dalmation it face is to big, it looks more like a spotted great dane.I am sure there is another name. Dalmation have a narrow face and have shorter legs.
ciao Donna
Follow Ups:
Posted by Jane A. on November 04, 1996 at 10:19:21:
Amy Dear,
Thanks for the warning! My heart sank when I saw the title of your message, and I am so glad it's not a full good-bye. As Mr. Bennet's favorite son-in-law would say, Au revoir!
Jane A.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann2 on November 04, 1996 at 10:23:46:
:
Cut out favourite part of Arnessaīs message:
: I can't help wondering, though, how Darcy would have reacted had the matter been less private but just as emotional. Say, for instance, that Jane had been writing to tell Lizzy that Mrs. Bennet had fallen ill and was on her death bed. How Darcy would have consoled and soothed Lizzy! How he would have done everything in his power to make her comfortable! He would probably have offered her his carriage (or one of his carriages, I should say, for he has several) for the trip back to Longbourne, maybe even accompanied her himself. He would have never left her side from that moment on, I'm convinced. But JA must have her own way and deprive us of a such a touching scene by throwing more roadblocks into the lovers' path!
: -Arnessa
___________________
OOHH, thank you for feeding my imagination. But surely they could not have travelled together in the same carriage... - But of course Mr and Mrs Gardiner are such dear people,if they would accompany Lizzy and know exactly when to take a nap (Amy, here is to you!)...then it would have been, if not an easy distance, both comfortable and comforting thanks to the man himself.
Ann2(black outdoors and the rain pouring down. What a comfort this is)
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