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Posted by Joan, too on November 03, 1996 at 18:36:49:
: Tommye
: And Speaking of hair, I thought it was very interesting that Lizzy was cast in such soft light at this point--her prejudice having turned inside out, love prevailing; her rather harsh, possibly stylish, hairdo, undone--soft, flowing curls exposed. She looked so beautiful. Darcy would have loved her even sooner, I suspect, had he seen that hair! (Or lusted, perhaps.)
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Here is proof positive that the right pictue can, indeed, be worth a thousand words. Was this not a masterpiece of filmmaking? In a single moment as soon as the first frame was visible, one would have had to be blind not to recognize the transformation in Lizzie's emotions that propriety prevented her from displaying during the actual (second) proposal. And in direct contrast to what we see of her state of mind after the first proposal (which A&E in its commercial wisdom decided that we should not be allowed to see).
She has both figuratively and literally "let her hair down"; she is radiant, and the use of the multiple mirror images reflect her happiness from every angle. (Here is perhaps a foreshadowing of what Darcy can expect on his wedding night?)
Joan, too
Posted by Joan, too on November 03, 1996 at 18:41:22:
: Grace:
: and all of us would be employing our time much better elsewhere.
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Well, perhaps more productively, but certainly not better! :-)
Joan, too
Posted by Hilary on November 03, 1996 at 18:47:44:
: : I can only assume that Bingley suffers in comparison to Darcy when viewed by all of you, as Jane suffers to Eliza when viewed by me.
: :
: : ___________________
: : Now, now, folks! We really should make no such assumptions. As Jane points out, we are not making enough allowances for differences in situation and temperament...
:
: : And I doubt very much that Jane found Darcy as attractive as Bingley, or that Bingley found Lizzie as attractive as Jane. We cannot, therefore, assume that everyone without exception will agree that Lizzie and Darcy represent the epitome of attractiveness. Just everyone here. ;-)
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
: Very true. I should have inserted that reservation. However, I might add that of all the males I know who have seen P&P2 (I can count them on one hand), all have a decided preference for Eliza over Jane. But, we can not forget, this is the film we are talking about, not the book, and an entire crew of filmmakers and screenwriters have all led our eyes very distinctly toward Elizabeth and Darcy, not Jane and Bingley. It is not that they do not have specific personalities, or are not on-camera often, but that the intimate focus certainly lies on Darcy and Elizabeth. They are, after all, the hero and heroine.
: From my perspective, Jane is certainly not ugly, not by a long-shot, but in the course of five hours I become very intimately acquainted with Eliza, and her positive, strong-willed attributes are seen in the greatest possible light. Like Colin Firth himself can admit, who can help but fall in love with her?
: Although I respect your observation of reservation, I also respect your subsequent comment -- thus, what woman here can say with honesty that they did not fall in love with Darcy -- if only for a moment -- when watching P&P2? I certainly could not stop myself from falling in love with Eliza.
: Cordially,
: Raphael
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I agree with Anna's defence of Bingley, and with your opinions, Joan and Raphael.
One thing that interests me, however, is that in the book Jane's appearance is meant to be the more beautiful (of her and Lizzie). I would guess we would say JE's Lizzie is the more beautiful in the film, so on this score the film loses a little edge (about appearance and character, and books and their covers!). I think the makers of P&P2 did try to address this by casting someone for Jane that looked beautiful in a classical sense (and she does), because they were the admired looks of the time, but we can't help looking with modern eyes.
Hilary
Posted by Arnessa on November 03, 1996 at 19:02:38:
: : : After watching this scene numerous times, I am struck by the various
: : : expressions that Darcy shows during this scene.
Possibly...possibly. It's obvious that he loves to look at her, and not just her fine eyes, either. There's this one moment during the piano scene at Rosings where he gives her the once-over, and it positively sends shivers down my spine. It's not like a purely sexual thing either. It's like he's pleased with the entire package, you know? He likes it that she's so well-made. It's like an architect appreciating the beauty of a perfectly executed design. If it's not his own, he wishes it were. There's a covetousness to it, maybe. It's a proprietary gaze. (Covetousness is awkward, I know. But it's the only word I can think of... My mind is racing as I think about CF's looks. I'd better stop now.)
-Arnessa.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on November 03, 1996 at 19:21:31:
maybe. It's a proprietary gaze. (Covetousness is awkward, I know. But it's the only word I can think of... -Arnessa
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Whoa! We are all stirred up by this. How exciting to be able to be so moved by a series of expressions. I find it so, anyway.
Question. Anne, I never dissected the string of looks as you have. Thank you (for that and for starting off the R/V discussion today in Cheryls's absence. I think it is so cool how everybody here jumps into help.) Do you think the picture of the culminating look or first look?
Arnessa, I can't describe Darcy's feeling either but I sense it too. It's like he is drinking her in -- all of her, as you said, letting her flow over him, happily drowning in her. Maybe there are not words.
Question for anybody. I agree with the comments of many who believe he is thinking how pleasant it is to have Georgiana and Lizzy with him at Pemberley. For some reason, I don't know why, I have a notion at at the moment he is sitting on the sofa listening, he is only thinking of how nice it is right then, at that minute. Later, during and wandering and remembering, it seems he is thinking "how I would like her to always be here." Anybody else get the same impression? Is so, how did we get it?
Amy
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Posted by kathy on November 03, 1996 at 19:39:33:
pure happiness..... he only really loves three things: 1) Pemberly, 2)Georgianna, and 3) Lizzie. (Not necessarily in that order) Since Lizzie's refusal, he would have never allowed himself to dream of them all intersecting. Yet, there it is, right in front of his eyes.
: -Candace
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Beautifully put my dear. How often does that happen in life, intersecting of all the things you love, pure happiness indeed!!!
Posted by Tommye on November 03, 1996 at 19:51:18:
: :
: : . The :famous meeting scene at Pemberly: Dry in P&P2 Stimulating in P&P1. .
: : :._______
: : Everyone, please be aware that the above was actually the REVERSE of what I meant to SAY. Whereas I do not wish to suffer the wrath of this entire BB, and inasmuch as all of you do not know me, I hereby ask everyone's forgiveness for such a heinous misstatement.
: : NOTHING IS DRY ABOUT FIRTH's DARCY!
: : :::Tommye
:
: ___________________
: I knew when you said this you meant the reverse NOW I don't feel so bad about my mistakes. Which have only been little ones ah ah! but, you only do things in a big way.
: ciao Donna
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Well, thank you, Donna. Thank you so much. I feel even more embarrassed now!
::Tommye
P. S. All taken in good humor, I assure you!
Posted by Tommye on November 03, 1996 at 19:53:35:
:
: : ___________________
: : Of course, I meant the REVERSE of WHAT I SAID. PLEASE FORGIVE ME! DARCY in P&P2 certainly not DRY! VERY WET, ACTUALLY! Please, Anne. It was a mistake! Very little in P&P1 was superior to P&P2!
: : ::Tommye
:
: ___________________
:
: Tommye --
: I realized it was a typo (2 & 1 are so easy to transpose) --
: just couldn't help giving you a little gig on it though.
: Anne :-)
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No harm done, of course. I always benefit from a bit of humbling now and then.
::Tommye
Posted by Kali on November 03, 1996 at 20:03:00:
: :
: : : On that same note, it is curious to me that Wickham ever considered a clergy position...
: : : : ::Tommye
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Don't you think there just weren't that many things one could be at the time? Also it was a way fo ra man who was just a step away from being a real gentleman to become one.
: : : Amy
: : ___________________
: : Hmmm. What else could he have been?
:
: ___________________
: I don't think that Wickham ever actually seriously considered becoming a clergyman - that was all old Mr Darcy's idea - something within his power to give that would ensure his protege having an income. What else could he be? Well, he did profess to Darcy his intention of studying law (though he never had any serious intention to enter that prefession, either).
: Joan, too
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I agree that Wickham ever had any intention of doing anything useful. I think that Wickham was using old Mr. D's wish as a way to to dig young Mr. Darcy, and sour other people towards him. What better way to punish a guiltless, upstanding enemy than by using half-truths against him?
- K
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 03, 1996 at 20:06:03:
I meant to write:
: I agree that Wickham *never* (NOT "ever") had any intention of doing anything useful. I think that Wickham was using old Mr. D's wish as a way to to dig young Mr. Darcy, and sour other people towards him. What better way to punish a guiltless, upstanding enemy than by using half-truths against him?
: - K
Posted by kathy on November 03, 1996 at 20:08:27:
This may be quite obvious to everyone but was a revelation to me that of course Lizzy is ashamed that she did not reveal Whickam's character, but Darcy even more so. That is why he leaves. I do not believe it occurs to him right away what he must do, but only that he is ashamed that he did not make Wickham's character known because of his bloody pride. HE is really the cause of all the embarassment and not the embarrasing Bennet's. THe irony of it!. She thinks he will never see him again, and he thinks she would never want to. "You have much been wanting my absence". (Not a correct quote, it has been a long time since I read or saw.)
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Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on November 03, 1996 at 20:10:01:
: Of course, maybe his skill ran deeper (not intended as a pun); Lydia did say she had done something none of her other sisters had done. Were we to take that at face value, or was she implying something more...
:
: ___________________
:
:
: Hormones kicking in again Tommye?
: Anne ;-)
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EEEWWWWW!!!!
- K %^}
Posted by Tommye on November 03, 1996 at 20:12:07:
: Of course, maybe his skill ran deeper (not intended as a pun); Lydia did say she had done something none of her other sisters had done. Were we to take that at face value, or was she implying something more...
:
: ___________________
:
:
: Hormones kicking in again Tommye?
: Anne ;-)
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Yes. I'm sure that was it. Let's just don't go there.
::Tommye
Posted by leslie on November 03, 1996 at 20:24:39:
I have been an observer on this bb for a couple of months. It has been wonderful to know that I was not the only one obsessed with PP2. Also, thanks to the BB, I learned that Price/Costco had the tapes for $40 less than anywhere else & how to get a copy of "Making P&P"
In watching my new tapes last nite, I started wondering, what if Lizzie's family had pressured her into accepting Mr. Collins (for obvious financial reasons) & Darcy had also weakened to Lady C's pressure & had married Ann. Then Darcy & Lizzie could have stared at each other during many interminable evenings at Rosings! Of course, Lizzie might never have changed her opinion of Darcy under these circumstances, but I'm sure he would have looked even more longingly at her if he had married poor sickly Ann.
One of the subtle messages in P & P 2 is the "to thine own self be true"--Lizzie & Darcy obviously are & Bingley would have been better off if he had had the strength to listen to his own feelings about Jane.
With regard to the recent discussion about Bingley, it seems to me that he was intentionally made a foil for Darcy (in Making PP & P they mention that they wanted him to contrast with Darcy physically).
I do enjoy this BB very much indeed! LKO
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on November 03, 1996 at 20:59:35:
: :
: : : : I love you guys! You're very right! While he probably wouldn't discuss it, Darcy is - in addition to being incredibly moral - actually very progressive - and certainly NOT a MCP (male-chauvenist-pig). [Classically] Liberal minds make the most efficient learners and the most understanding companions - isn't Mr. Darcy a god? I wonder if he ever read Wollstonecraft...? well, that's pushing it!
: : : : - K
: : :
: : : __________
: : : This must have been Austen's push for liberal thinking in her day. Rather ahead of her time, in light of how slowly we're making our way. Darcy would be a stand up man in today's world, listening to and even changing himself for a woman.
: : : The other males in the entire story line are so weak that Darcy's virtues are exemplified by contrast. There is no need for him to be a snob (per another thread); he naturally stands far apart and above them all.
: : : Little wonder that it is Lizzy whom he admires and aspires to please. Her standards also rise above the rest. There was somewhat of a challenge there for him, as her 'good opinion was not easily bestowed and therefore more worth the earning'.
: : : : Janet
: : : _________
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Yeah, he and Lizzy certainly have the most vital, active minds in the story. THey are intellectual "survivors," submissive to no situation!
: : THey deserve eachother, as we established in another thread long ago.
: : - K
:
: __________
: At the risk of being labelled blasphemous, I propose a response to the issue of Lizzy as a survivor. Please don't blame me for this theory as I do not necessarily agree with it in its entirety, but it has occurred to me as another of the unlimited interpretations of this wonderful tale. After all, we are allowed to profess ideas which are not our own, are we not?
: This theory holds that Lizzy did not stick to her principles, but actually succumbed to the pressures of men and society to marry - and marry well, per the ultimate aspiration. By so doing, she gave up her freedom, independence and subjected herself to the power of a man who was stronger than herself and, for that matter, stronger than her father or any other man she has ever known. This may be give way to the idea that after their marriage, Darcy reverted to his previous proud and powerful persona and tried to take control over her.
Oh, good grief, This sounds like a feminist point of view
{Gloria Steinhem}. Don't you think.
Was there pressure, she would have more freedom because she would have her own money.
I don't think this theory holds water,because she said in the very beginning that she would liked to get married. I don't think he would revert to his previous ways because he wants to be happy and make everyone around him happy. He was tired of his gloomy lonely life,plus he wanted a little liveliness. Mrs. Reynolds would tell him to wise up or would poppin in the head.
: The idea that Lizzy was more akin to a son than a daughter is supported by her closeness to her father, rather than to her mother and the other sillier women in the story. (Warning - there may be some Freudian psychology lurking here - hark, you Daggies!) Because of society's dictates and the entail arrangement, she could not maintain her position as heir to the family estate so her recourse was to marry a man who was strong enough for her. As the closest person to an heir (other than Mr. Collins - eek!) the task of saving the family fell to her. In fact, Mr. Collins presented himself as a possible saviour by proposing to her, but alas, he was not a 'real man' from the start (hence his being cast as a clergy?).
Just because she is admired by her father for her wit she should of been a son. If a woman is strong willed she should have been a man.
Jane was the eldest, she was going to marry Bingley away.
Mr. Collins a saviour{gross}.
: By his own near admission, Mr. Bennet lost control over his family, proved himself to be inept and weak, and consequently forfeited his position as head of the household. He made little effort to assist or guide, especially the younger girls, and failed to provide for them even after his inevitable demise. With all the men incapable of assisting the ladies in their predicament, the fate of the family fell to the strongest (Lizzy) to secure their salvation by succumbing to the strongest man (who else but Darcy). Presumably they would have cared for the rest as they did for Lydia.
again, Jane married Bingley. Lizzie didn't even have to get married. Bingley would have them all at his house. Poor Bingley.
Mr. Darcy didn't want Lizzie to know what he did for Lydia anyway. Lizzie could have said no.
: There is much emphasis on contrasting the strengths and weaknesses in intelligence, wit and moral character of all, and it is clear who comes out on top. Freud may analyze some of this in his own way, but I find it rather repulsive.
I agree repulsive.
: Considering Jane Austen's life and times, we may understand that some of the views she imparts concerning marriage in terms of societal values vs. independence and being true to one's own ideals must be born of her own. I believe she, too, thought better of a proposal the second time around, but in her case she accepted an advantageous proposal and then rescinded the next morning (in the light of day). As a woman author writing about these issues in a repressive society she was somewhat ahead of her time. In the end, though, it may be said that our Lizzy gave in to the espoused be-all to end-all.
: While we all love Lizzy, and I daresay who could not adore Darcy, perhaps there is something in this mumbo-jumbo?
: : Janet
: _________
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Who is Freud anyway? He was on drugs have the time anyway.
Donna
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Posted by Hilary on November 03, 1996 at 21:02:50:
: Alicia, you have given us a treasure. My very favorite moment -- not just in the movie but maybe of anything. I never slobber excpet when I take naps, but I declare my keyboard is shorting out from the drool.
: I am thinking of a bathroom tile along these lines. What say you? I shall have fun manipulating this image as it is not just a picture but an idea with me. Very nearly spiritual I dare say.
: (I dare say I've lost it this time.)
: Amy
:
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With such detail of colour, pixel by pixel, I'm sure a tapestry or hook-latch rug would be quite possible, if you wanted an integrated approach to your decor.
Hilary
Posted by Donna on November 03, 1996 at 21:26:24:
: : Stop it! Stop it! What is happening to us? Where is the love, the obsession, the passion we once shared?
: Ours was to be an eternal alliance of minds and hearts. Gone are the longing looks. We only look to find fault, to magnify every imperfection,to quibble over details.
: Don't think the whispered threads of conversation have gone unnoticed. It is all just a preview of what is to come.
I think we should go forward not backwards,you can only rehash things for so long,but still have to see the missing scenes.
Donna,
: Admit it! You can't wait to turn to another.
: ......Emma!
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