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Posted by Janet on November 02, 1996 at 13:24:00:
:
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : : The only thing is that I wish Mr. Bingley could have finished his sentence it would have given us more insight to his thoughts.
: : : :
: : : : Thanks Donna
: : :
: : : __________
: : : I suspect Charles was accustomed to being cut off by Caroline, and I doubt that he had any startling insight to contribute. He rarely posed significant objections to either sister's obnoxious barbs, weak sister as he truly was.
: : : : Janet
: : : _________
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : I thought Bingley was trying to change the subject so as to spare Darcy any more of Miss Bingley's unkind words, but Miss Bingley insisted on pushing Darcy to the end. This is compatible with Bingley's awareness of his friend's disposition, of the uncomfortableness of the conversation, of his sister's lack of decorum in so severely criticizing Darcy's guest, and his own affinity for Lizzie and Jane.
: ___________________
: Exactly so. And Davies had no help from Austen here, as the scene in the book excludes the gentlemen other than Darcy -- Elizabeth & Mrs G were paying a daytime call on Georgiana while Mr G was fishing w/ the gentlemen. Darcy came up to the house when he learned that Elizabeth would be there (like a moth to a flame, etc).
: kathleen
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Despite the sisters' intention to keep them 'at bay'.
: Janet_________
Posted by Stefanie on November 02, 1996 at 13:47:17:
: When didn't Kitty sound whiny?!
: Ann
___________________
This is true.
Stefanie
Posted by Stefanie on November 02, 1996 at 13:57:34:
___________________
: Ya'll have just worn me out. And to think it all started when I misunderstood Janet's (I think) word, affront, to be front!
: When I have more energy I shall rejoin the Darcy admiration society. " For now, let us not say , "Goodbye," but as the French have it, "Aurevoire(???)"
: ::Tommye
: P>S> While I speak fluent Southern, I have had zero French lessons, as you probably can tell!
___________________
Tommye,
You have inadvertently stumbled upon the line that bothers me the most in P&P2. The fact that Wickham says "For now, let us not say, 'Goodbye,' but as the French have it 'Aurevoir!'" really bothewrs me. Maybe it's because Aurevoir mean goodbye in French. His attempt to sound intelligent emphasizes my opinion of his phony nature.
Stefanie
Posted by Stefanie on November 02, 1996 at 14:00:44:
: And where might I find "PriceClub/Costco"? If it's not on the Web, I guess I won't find it, will I?
___________________
It is on the web, but I don't remember the address. I think I found it by just looking up Price or just looking up Costco. Anyway, the only location I remember id in Nashua, NH.
Hope it helps.
Stefanie
Posted by Cheryl on November 02, 1996 at 14:12:04:
: I have wondered what the relative ages of the Bingleys are. In the production Mrs. Hurst seems much older and Miss Bingley possibly also older than her brother. I figure he is probably the youngest of the kids in his family, which means he would be the kid-brother with only sisters. (I can't remember if he has other unseen siblings).
: Ann
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You are spot on, Ann. Mrs. Hurst is the eldest, Bingley the baby at 23. As to the ages of the sisters, with a younger brother of twenty and three, you can hardly expect them to own to their own age!
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
Posted by Sylvia on November 02, 1996 at 14:18:04:
: :
: :
: : This is really more of a response to the entire thread rather than to just your comments. Most of these minor discrepancies I had already noticed, though some I had not. It is interesting to note how deeply all of us wish P&P2 were even better than it was, ferreting out even its most insignificant flaws. But along these lines, I have a more philosophical question:
: : Is a thing of beauty (such as P&P2) rendered more beautiful by its imperfections, less beautiful, or have they no effect?
: : Personally, I am not prepared for perfect beauty for it shows forth my own decided want in that regard and inspires in me not appreciation, but resentment. Perhaps I am perversely egotistical. Nevertheless, as I watch the movie and read the book, I am finding them more approachable as I see them wanting of absolute perfection.
:
: ___________________
: Perfect beauty is certainly less interesting than beauty with flaws. The same goes for characters. Were either Elizabeth or Darcy perfect, we would find them insufferably boring. There can be no evolution, no change, in perfection; it is necissarily static. If there is a choice between the static and the dynamic, I choose the dynamic every time.
: We can not appreciate perfect beauty to the same degree as flawed beauty. It is, after all, the flaws that point out the perfections.
: Ann
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Nicely said all of you. I can't tell you how much I enjoy all your comments. PP2 is beautiful enough for me.
Sylvia
Posted by Sylvia on November 02, 1996 at 14:26:34:
: : I was going to ask Amy by private email, but other late comers
: : may also be interested - are the old messages from this site
: : archived anywhere online?
: _______________
:
: Anna,
: Not online but I can send you some zipped files of almost all the messages. You might want them a bit at a time since we're over 4,000 messages now.
: Anybody who wants some let me know.
: Amy
:
: P.S. Welcome. Hope I am not a pariah over there.
___________________
Hi Amy,
I'm back. I was studying for a test. I notice you had e-mail me the archives. Thank you very much for your trouble. My eudora though can't handle it so I wasn't able to unzip it or I don't know how to do it. But never mind. I'll just do without it I suppose. I just want to thank you very much for it. Forgive me for having taken up so much of your time, and accept my best wishess for your health and happiness.
Cheers,
Sylvia
Posted by Hilary on November 02, 1996 at 14:26:55:
:
: : _________
: : Grace - I spotted your reference to '84 Charing Cross Road' and wondered if you've seen the film with Anne Bancroft and Anthony Hopkins .
: : : Janet
: : __________
:
: ___________________
:
: : Never saw it, but I did hear of it. (I get all sentimental about favorite books, to the point of being afraid of seeing them as films lest they disappoint. I would still be debating about seeing P&P2 if I had not just happened upon it on A&E.)
: A hopeless case, Grace
___________________
Grace and Janet, thanks for reminding me of this book. I know about it, and the film, but have not seen either; maybe now is the time. BTW I got the spelling of Oscar wrong. Probably neither here nor there.
HIlary
Posted by Hilary on November 02, 1996 at 14:37:23:
: : So nice to meet another ENFP. I was interested to see that N seems to be the common link. What does that say about us all I wonder? That we like Austen because she leaves so much to our intuition about human nature?
: ___________________
: That's an interpretation I don't remember from our early discussion of this, Brigid. Makes sense. I'm an INF JorP.
: Amy
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Amy, seem to remember as INFP we were life's treasures! Here's to you!
Hilary
Posted by Janet on November 02, 1996 at 15:01:35:
: : I don't believe that he is sure yet, either. He is encouraged, because she did agree to meet his sister and socialize with them, but not yet certain. Except for those visits to Longbourne with Bingley, during which Lizzie was "grave and silent", he has not seen her since they parted company in Lambton. (And he doesn't know that she knows anything about what he has done to help her sisters.) It took Lady C.'s visit to make him believe that a renewal of his addresses might be received more favorably than before.
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
: After having been so certain that she would accept him the first time, he must be very skittish about asking her again. He would want to have some indication that, this time, she would accept him before making the offer. He could not bear to hear her refuse him again--it hurt too much the first time, and there could be no third chance. Her behavior when he returned to Hertfordshire was not encouraging. He must have gone off to London thinking that she did not care for him. Only Lady C.'s communication could give him hope.
: Ann
__________
I still believe that Darcy intended to renew his addresses at Lambton until Lizzy broke down with Lydia's news which led everyone down a side-chase. Of course, the resolution of the remaining affairs had not yet been accomplished for the sake of the story. Darcy had yet to assist in the Wickham matter, reunite Bingley and Jane, and prove that family opinions no longer affected his love for Lizzy, (a la Lady C's ignored wrath).
Perhaps Darcy's trip to London after Bingley's return to Netherfield was a design to allow Bingley his chance to propose to Jane and take his place in the limelight - before Darcy returned to do the same with Lizzy. He would not have wanted to overshadow Bingley's intentions with his own, since he was responsible (and now sorry) for cutting him off from Jane. Bingley and Jane had to resolve their relationship before Darcy and Lizzy could proceed.
We are to understand that the proud Darcy is no more, and he must demonstrate that he is deserving of Lizzy and does not assume she will accept him. However, I still like to think that he always intended to keep trying, that he had been encouraged by her responses at Pemberley, and that he would have found a way to propose again even had it not been for the encouragement provided by Lady C's attempts to dissuade Lizzy. But now we are second-guessing the story which has its own life to lead vis a vis conflicts to resolve and lessons to learn.
Nevertheless, I prefer to think that Darcy's love for Lizzy never waivered. Only the points of contention required resolution, not his feelings for her. Perhaps this is simply my own romantic view.
: Janet
_________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Janet on November 02, 1996 at 15:19:34:
: :
: : : :
: : : : : Sheesh, this is one smart thread! WWhat a beautiful linkage between the morality and the "transforamtion"!
: : : : : - K
: : : : ___________________
: : : : :TransforAMTION?
: : : : ::Tommye
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Either you're making a crack at my spelling, or you're doing your impression of Adam Sandler's Cajun Man. ; )
: : : - K
: : ___________________
: : Just playing, Kali. Cajun Man? I assure I was doing no such impression. Just tired, old, and crochety. Birthday coming up and hormones exploding.
: : :Tommye
:
: ___________________
:
: Come on, you're not old! Happy birthday! Remember, you're only as old as you come off in your bb messages!
: - K
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Tommye, of all the posters on this board, surely YOU are NOT old! Happy Birthday!!! Now hormones are another issue, but I daresay I would not wish to return to the raging teens.
: Janet
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Posted by Donna on November 02, 1996 at 15:29:31:
: : : : : I think Lizzie should hire Hannah to work at Pemberly. Silly isn't it. Just based on what Uncle G. said about her.
: : : : : ciao Donna
: : : : ___________________
: : : : I ahve always thought the same thing. Hannah is such a nice girl.
: : : : mich
: : ___________________
: : : Me too, it would be so nice since her brother is already an under-gardener there, I'm sure she would be thrilled tobe in the "great house."
: : : Cheryl
: : ___________________
: :
: : Oh, why don't we just hire Hannah to sweep up around here? Delete dupe posts, make tea and spy.
: : Amy
:
: ___________________
: Excuse me but I am having an identity crisis. I could see myself and Hannah working at Pemberly witnessing
: all the lovely felicity going on between Mr. & Mrs. Darcy. Anything to be in that beautiful house. Not that I like housework so much.
: But do you think they would notice if I did a lousy job while I spied and drooled? Oh well, it's one way to be there.
___________________
It would be better for her to work for Lizzie then at the Lamphton Inn. It is a fact that she would always be in service of some type so, why not the best place and for the best people around.
Donna
Posted by kathy on November 02, 1996 at 17:03:20:
Don't forget A&E starting next week on Classroom at 7am I believe rebroadcast of our favorite miniseries. I've got my VCR working I hope, (no I do not have a set of tapes yet). Please correct me if this info is incorrect. k
Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 17:35:28:
: : I have wondered what the relative ages of the Bingleys are. In the production Mrs. Hurst seems much older and Miss Bingley possibly also older than her brother. I figure he is probably the youngest of the kids in his family, which means he would be the kid-brother with only sisters. (I can't remember if he has other unseen siblings).
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
: You are spot on, Ann. Mrs. Hurst is the eldest, Bingley the baby at 23. As to the ages of the sisters, with a younger brother of twenty and three, you can hardly expect them to own to their own age!
: Cheryl
___________________
Then, Miss Bingley must be entering the age of danger and facing the idea that she may never get married. Though, I believe she may be wealthy enough to find somebody who would marry her.
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 17:47:46:
Cliffs' Notes agrees with you that Darcy was on the verge of
proposing in Lambton; I think it more likely that he would
only have declared his continuing love for her, and that she
may have told him of her love (though in the book, it is not
until she thinks that Lydia has driven Darcy away forever
that she realises her own feelings). Lizzy and Darcy may
then have come to an understanding that he would get Bingley
back to Netherfield, and after things in that quarter have
taken there natural course, then they would finalise their
engagement.
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Cheryl on November 02, 1996 at 18:49:51:
: : You are spot on, Ann. Mrs. Hurst is the eldest, Bingley the baby at 23. As to the ages of the sisters, with a younger brother of twenty and three, you can hardly expect them to own to their own age!
: : Cheryl
:
: ___________________
: Then, Miss Bingley must be entering the age of danger and facing the idea that she may never get married. Though, I believe she may be wealthy enough to find somebody who would marry her.
: Ann
___________________
Yes, Miss Bingley is indeed entering "the age of danger" (love that phrase!) and I am sure that this fuels her desperate pursuit of Darcy.
Cheryl
Posted by Janet on November 02, 1996 at 19:11:41:
: Cliffs' Notes agrees with you that Darcy was on the verge of
: proposing in Lambton; I think it more likely that he would
: only have declared his continuing love for her, and that she
: may have told him of her love (though in the book, it is not
: until she thinks that Lydia has driven Darcy away forever
: that she realises her own feelings). Lizzy and Darcy may
: then have come to an understanding that he would get Bingley
: back to Netherfield, and after things in that quarter have
: taken there natural course, then they would finalise their
: engagement.
: Ann
_________
Aha - Cliffs' Notes - another source of ideas and interpretations. The possibilities are endless, are they not?
: Janet
__________
Posted by Raphael on November 02, 1996 at 19:42:34:
: at least I've given y'all something to disagree with ; )
: Anna.
___________________
I don't disagree at all. I'm surprised people don't like him. Are we looking at him from the point of view of a character in a story or from the point of view as a human being?
If it is the former, Bingley serves up much to recommend him as an invaluable and unique compotent of P&P. On the one hand, he is humorous. His excessive, anxious desire to be pleasing is at once endearing and funny. And, his character perfectly highlights Darcy's character. Opposites of a sort, their conversation together delineates the attitudes of the two, culminating in the conversation early on at Netherfield with the line "... determined to go about the world hating everything and everyone in it" (or liking, as the case may be), maybe not exactly quoted.
If we are referring to the latter, the point of view of Mr. Bingley as a human, it is easy to hate someone who lives life simply. But it is unfair to. Bingley may not be dark, brooding, or especially sophisticated (whether or not that is attractive to women is not my power to tell), but he is determined to be cordial, to be friendly, to be a gentleman, and to enjoy himself. I shall never think those traits a detriment. And, besides, he fits Jane's attitude perfectly.
If I look at it from the perspective of how sexually attractive the representative female version of that personality is, I must confess it is rather uninspiring. Eliza, the perfect representative of the perfect female, is neither simple, nor determined to be cordial or friendly if she does not wish to. Jane, much more similar to Bingley's personality, is hardly very attractive as a woman at all in comparison to Eliza. I can only assume that Bingley suffers in comparison to Darcy when viewed by all of you, as Jane suffers to Eliza when viewed by me.
Still, as both a character and a person Mr. Bingley has much to recommend him.
Cordially,
Raphael
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anna on November 02, 1996 at 19:49:55:
: Did anyone else find fault with Lady C's remark to Elizabeth about
: having brothers and sisters? She had just made the statement that
: the Bennet estate was entailed upon Mr. Collins and then she asked
: Lizzy if she had brothers and sisters. If she had had brothers, the
: estate would not have been entailed on Mr. Collins. Someone of her
: position would/should have known that.
: Anne
___________________
I also wondered about that. I don't have my copy of the text with me at the moment, so I don't know if this was Davies' mistake or if Austen wrote it that way. It seems unlikely that Austen would make such a mistake, but I gather she had little control over the editing.
Anna.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on November 02, 1996 at 19:53:29:
: But we were discussing Rosings, not Pemberley. Perhaps Rosings was built on a hill. That would allow an upper story to appear to be the ground floor.
Oops - I stuck that comment in the wrong place - I was thinking of the remark that was made by someone about Darcy and the dogs at Pemberley.
: : : One more thing (might as well get it all out of my system): for Wickham's first pay-off (supposedly five years ago) - Georgiana is not shown as a girl of eleven; she's her regular old sixteen-year-old self.
: : Georgiana was 15 when Wickham tried to elope with her. Darcy in his letter says "About a year ago she was taken from school and an establishment formed for her in London..." The "5 years ago" was when the Darcys' father died. So perhaps you may think a tiny bit better of Wickham since he was not that close to robbing the cradle. ;-) c
: But the first payoff does come several years earlier. From the letter:
: "My excellent father died about five years ago...[My father] desired that a valuable family living should be his as soon as it became vacant...His own father did not long survive mine, and within half a year of these events Mr. Wickham wrote to inform me that, having finally resolved against taking orders, he hoped I should not think it unreasonable for him to expect some more immediate pecuniary advantage, in lieu of the preferment...[I] was perfectly ready to accede to his proposal...he resigned all claim to assistance in the church....and accepted in return three thousand pounds."
: So this took place about four and a half years before our story takes place, when Georgiana would have been about eleven and a half.
: Ann
Yes, the 3000 pound payoff ws 4 1/2 years earlier, but the reference point when Darcy mentions the elopement is from the "present" time - the time at which the letter was written. "After this period [when the payoff was made], every appearance of acquaintance was dropt. How he lived I know not." So after the payoff was made there was no further contact with Wickham. Then he suddenly reappeared: "But last summer [the summer before Darcy's letter was written] he [Wickham] was again most painfully obtruded on my notice." So he had not seen Wickham at all after paying him off, until the immediate past summer when the elopement occurred, at which time Georgiana was 15.
Joan, too
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