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Posted by Amy on November 02, 1996 at 08:05:28:
"... without that ponderous thing crammed on his crown."
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Eric,
What a nice phrase. Are you a writer?
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Eric on November 02, 1996 at 08:06:43:
: :
: : ___________________
: : The only thing is that I wish Mr. Bingley could have finished his sentence it would have given us more insight to his thoughts.
: :
: : Thanks Donna
:
: __________
: I suspect Charles was accustomed to being cut off by Caroline, and I doubt that he had any startling insight to contribute. He rarely posed significant objections to either sister's obnoxious barbs, weak sister as he truly was.
: : Janet
: _________
___________________
I thought Bingley was trying to change the subject so as to spare Darcy any more of Miss Bingley's unkind words, but Miss Bingley insisted on pushing Darcy to the end. This is compatible with Bingley's awareness of his friend's disposition, of the uncomfortableness of the conversation, of his sister's lack of decorum in so severely criticizing Darcy's guest, and his own affinity for Lizzie and Jane.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Eric on November 02, 1996 at 08:10:46:
: P.S. Amy I can't find the Italian Dic. no url found on this server.
:
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Che cosi Dizionario del' Italiano? Voui fare un domande?
Sorry. I happen to live in Sicily at the moment and have been endeavoring to learn Italian (and, more difficult, Sicilian), so the little asside piqued my interest.
Posted by Eric on November 02, 1996 at 08:20:24:
This is really more of a response to the entire thread rather than to just your comments. Most of these minor discrepancies I had already noticed, though some I had not. It is interesting to note how deeply all of us wish P&P2 were even better than it was, ferreting out even its most insignificant flaws. But along these lines, I have a more philosophical question:
Is a thing of beauty (such as P&P2) rendered more beautiful by its imperfections, less beautiful, or have they no effect?
Personally, I am not prepared for perfect beauty for it shows forth my own decided want in that regard and inspires in me not appreciation, but resentment. Perhaps I am perversely egotistical. Nevertheless, as I watch the movie and read the book, I am finding them more approachable as I see them wanting of absolute perfection.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Eric on November 02, 1996 at 09:35:01:
: "... without that ponderous thing crammed on his crown."
: ___________________
: Eric,
: What a nice phrase. Are you a writer?
: Amy
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Thank you for your compliment. I shall, briefly, let it go to my head.
I'm a U.S. Navy chaplain, but I write sermons, newsletters, newspaper editorials, stories for my kids, speeches, rare poems, and even more rarely, brief skits for my own amusement or for use by various church/chapel groups. So, while not a writer by trade, I have been writing variously for over 10 years, as the spirit moves.
Posted by kathleen on November 02, 1996 at 10:40:23:
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : The only thing is that I wish Mr. Bingley could have finished his sentence it would have given us more insight to his thoughts.
: : :
: : : Thanks Donna
: :
: : __________
: : I suspect Charles was accustomed to being cut off by Caroline, and I doubt that he had any startling insight to contribute. He rarely posed significant objections to either sister's obnoxious barbs, weak sister as he truly was.
: : : Janet
: : _________
:
: ___________________
:
: I thought Bingley was trying to change the subject so as to spare Darcy any more of Miss Bingley's unkind words, but Miss Bingley insisted on pushing Darcy to the end. This is compatible with Bingley's awareness of his friend's disposition, of the uncomfortableness of the conversation, of his sister's lack of decorum in so severely criticizing Darcy's guest, and his own affinity for Lizzie and Jane.
___________________
Exactly so. And Davies had no help from Austen here, as the scene in the book excludes the gentlemen other than Darcy -- Elizabeth & Mrs G were paying a daytime call on Georgiana while Mr G was fishing w/ the gentlemen. Darcy came up to the house when he learned that Elizabeth would be there (like a moth to a flame, etc).
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Grace on November 02, 1996 at 10:55:27:
: Stop it! Stop it! What is happening to us? Where is the love, the obsession, the passion we once shared?
Ours was to be an eternal alliance of minds and hearts. Gone are the longing looks. We only look to find fault, to magnify every imperfection,to quibble over details.
Don't think the whispered threads of conversation have gone unnoticed. It is all just a preview of what is to come.
Admit it! You can't wait to turn to another.
......Emma!
Posted by Grace on November 02, 1996 at 11:12:28:
: _________
: Grace - I spotted your reference to '84 Charing Cross Road' and wondered if you've seen the film with Anne Bancroft and Anthony Hopkins .
: : Janet
: __________
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: Never saw it, but I did hear of it. (I get all sentimental about favorite books, to the point of being afraid of seeing them as films lest they disappoint. I would still be debating about seeing P&P2 if I had not just happened upon it on A&E.)
A hopeless case, Grace
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Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 12:15:47:
I have wondered what the relative ages of the Bingleys are. In the production Mrs. Hurst seems much older and Miss Bingley possibly also older than her brother. I figure he is probably the youngest of the kids in his family, which means he would be the kid-brother with only sisters. (I can't remember if he has other unseen siblings).
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 12:25:35:
:
:
: This is really more of a response to the entire thread rather than to just your comments. Most of these minor discrepancies I had already noticed, though some I had not. It is interesting to note how deeply all of us wish P&P2 were even better than it was, ferreting out even its most insignificant flaws. But along these lines, I have a more philosophical question:
: Is a thing of beauty (such as P&P2) rendered more beautiful by its imperfections, less beautiful, or have they no effect?
: Personally, I am not prepared for perfect beauty for it shows forth my own decided want in that regard and inspires in me not appreciation, but resentment. Perhaps I am perversely egotistical. Nevertheless, as I watch the movie and read the book, I am finding them more approachable as I see them wanting of absolute perfection.
___________________
Perfect beauty is certainly less interesting than beauty with flaws. The same goes for characters. Were either Elizabeth or Darcy perfect, we would find them insufferably boring. There can be no evolution, no change, in perfection; it is necissarily static. If there is a choice between the static and the dynamic, I choose the dynamic every time.
We can not appreciate perfect beauty to the same degree as flawed beauty. It is, after all, the flaws that point out the perfections.
Ann
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Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 12:28:21:
: Probably port they were drinking. Coffee for the ladies, port for the men.
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Men have all the fun ;-).
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anne on November 02, 1996 at 12:31:56:
: Is a thing of beauty (such as P&P2) rendered more beautiful by its imperfections, less beautiful, or have they no effect?
: Personally, I am not prepared for perfect beauty for it shows forth my own decided want in that regard and inspires in me not appreciation, but resentment. Perhaps I am perversely egotistical. Nevertheless, as I watch the movie and read the book, I am finding them more approachable as I see them wanting of absolute perfection.
___________________
Having imperfections does not cause us to love it less. It is like a child who is "special" - those who love it get more in return than could ever be imagined. I know that the videos, book and this discussion have added greatly to my life.
Anne
Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 12:38:28:
: I thought Bingley was trying to change the subject so as to spare Darcy any more of Miss Bingley's unkind words, but Miss Bingley insisted on pushing Darcy to the end. This is compatible with Bingley's awareness of his friend's disposition, of the uncomfortableness of the conversation, of his sister's lack of decorum in so severely criticizing Darcy's guest, and his own affinity for Lizzie and Jane.
___________________
But at this point in the story Bingley was still blissfully ignorant of Darcy's feelings for Elizabeth. Darcy only made the confession of it to him when they went back to Netherfield, prior to that Bingley had no idea of Darcy's feelings. The production shows Darcy's feelings much more openly than does the novel, and it is quite likely that Bingley would not have noticed (although of course there were enough signs for the Gardiners to pick up on it quickly).
But the arguement that Bingley would not want his sisters to insult his friend's guest (and the sister of the woman he loves!) certainly does hold very true. It must have made him uncomfortable to hear Jane's sister so denegrated, and would have risen to her defence without any reference to Darcy.
Ann
Posted by Anne on November 02, 1996 at 12:47:19:
: ___________________
:
: Come on, you're not old! Happy birthday! Remember, you're only as old as you come off in your bb messages!
: - K
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Remember, getting older beats the alternative. My grandmother was 2 months shy of 100 when she died -- and worked full time as a nurse until her mid-70's, so maybe I
have a different view of aging, but when people say they'd like to be 'young' again (ie teens, early 20's), I totally disagree. I wouldn't want to go back to those times at all. Anne
Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 12:50:41:
: The window thing was an unfortunate artifact of the fact that they were not allowed to use the interior of the "real" Pemberley (Lyme Park) so had to film the indoor scenes in a different building.
But we were discussing Rosings, not Pemberley. Perhaps Rosings was built on a hill. That would allow an upper story to appear to be the ground floor.
: : One more thing (might as well get it all out of my system): for Wickham's first pay-off (supposedly five years ago) - Georgiana is not shown as a girl of eleven; she's her regular old sixteen-year-old self.
: Georgiana was 15 when Wickham tried to elope with her. Darcy in his letter says "About a year ago she was taken from school and an establishment formed for her in London..." The "5 years ago" was when the Darcys' father died. So perhaps you may think a tiny bit better of Wickham since he was not that close to robbing the cradle. ;-)
But the first payoff does come several years earlier. From the letter:
"My excellent father died about five years ago...[My father] desired that a valuable family living should be his as soon as it became vacant...His own father did not long survive mine, and within half a year of these events Mr. Wickham wrote to inform me that, having finally resolved against taking orders, he hoped I should not think it unreasonable for him to expect some more immediate pecuniary advantage, in lieu of the preferment...[I] was perfectly ready to accede to his proposal...he resigned all claim to assistance in the church....and accepted in return three thousand pounds."
So this took place about four and a half years before our story takes place, when Georgiana would have been about eleven and a half.
Ann
Posted by Anne on November 02, 1996 at 12:52:24:
Did anyone else find fault with Lady C's remark to Elizabeth about
having brothers and sisters? She had just made the statement that
the Bennet estate was entailed upon Mr. Collins and then she asked
Lizzy if she had brothers and sisters. If she had had brothers, the
estate would not have been entailed on Mr. Collins. Someone of her
position would/should have known that.
Anne
Posted by Anne on November 02, 1996 at 12:55:26:
: : Probably port they were drinking. Coffee for the ladies, port for the men.
:
: ___________________
: Men have all the fun ;-).
: Ann
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Had ;-)
Anne
Posted by Donna on November 02, 1996 at 12:59:42:
: : : : One thing that always bothered me about Lydia's invitation to Brighton was the way Kitty reacted to it. She had a right to be jealous, but as she herself said, she was not Mrs. Forster's "particular friend," and Lydia was. It doesn't matter that Kitty was older; Lydia was closer to Mrs. Forster. It was only natural that, if Mrs. Forster was going to invite one of the Bennet girls, she was going to invite Lydia to go with her.
: : : : Did this bother anyone else or do you think that maybe Kitty had the right to the invitation (even though neither one of them should have been allowed to go)?
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Of course kitty was way off base! She is immature, selfish, and insipid, and almost completely out of control when she's around Lydia. Kitty is not rational, and so makes a mountain out of a mole-hill when Lydia gets the invitation. Of course, Lydia shouldn't be going either, but the mere fact that she does get to go clues us in to how much the Bennet family is malfunctioning at this point (Candace? Where are you with your dysfunctional family theories?). What was Mr. Bennet thinking?
: : : - K
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Lydia is 15 years old, I know my parents would not let me go with people other then family unless they were very good friends and reliable people. Mrs. Foster did seem to be very silly and Mr. Foster to old to be able to watch over Lydia's whereabouts. Also Mr.B. had really no insight to Lydia really,{she wanted his attention} he just knew he did want to be annoyed by Lydia if she stayed home. I think Lydia thought since everyone liked Wickham including Lizzie, Mr.B and Mrs.B. she thought it was ok to take off with Wickham. Maybe Mrs. B. idea was right the whole family should of went then they could see Lydia in action. Maybe Kitty would of found her out. Really the only thing Lydia really wanted was the right kind of instruction from both her parents. You can't always blame the kids.
: :
: : ciao Donna
:
: ___________________
: Mr. Bennet was thinking, I believe, what he claimed to be thinking: that Lydia must make a public spectacle of herself someplace before she learns, that no fortune-hunter would want her (she had no fortune), that Brighton offered an opportunity to let her make a spectacle of herself and get thoroughly embarrassed at comparatively little expense to himself and with a family that, on the surface, certainly appears respectable and responsible. He misunderstood Lydia in one particular alone. He honestly thought her capable of being embarrassed, of being shamed. He misunderstood the Forsters in two particulars. One, Mrs. Forster had to have been a silly, foolish lady if she wanted Lydia's company, and two, Col. Forster would necessarily be too busy to ride herd on both of them.
: Lydia wanted not only the proper instruction from her parents, but the wit to comprehend it. You cannot always blame the parents, either. That Mr. Bennet was more judicious in his insights than his resolve is obvious. He failed Lydia. He should have been more resolute. Lydia, however, is a silly ass of a girl - and for that she bears full responsibility herself.
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At 15 years old, I beg to differ a parent is totally responsible. I have a 13 year old son and he would run wild if I let him. Mr. B. took the easy way out. When my children don't behave if I am present or not it is a total embarrassment to me. You must not have children because Mr. B's way of thinking is wrong. I have no doubt about it. Every child has wit she was never made to use it and where does that fault lie. Maybe we all should give up on kids like Lydia.
I would never give up. By the law now a days parents are held responsible until they are 18.
Joan too your a teacher we need your response
Donna
Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 13:01:41:
: I don't believe that he is sure yet, either. He is encouraged, because she did agree to meet his sister and socialize with them, but not yet certain. Except for those visits to Longbourne with Bingley, during which Lizzie was "grave and silent", he has not seen her since they parted company in Lambton. (And he doesn't know that she knows anything about what he has done to help her sisters.) It took Lady C.'s visit to make him believe that a renewal of his addresses might be received more favorably than before.
: Joan, too
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After having been so certain that she would accept him the first time, he must be very skittish about asking her again. He would want to have some indication that, this time, she would accept him before making the offer. He could not bear to hear her refuse him again--it hurt too much the first time, and there could be no third chance. Her behavior when he returned to Hertfordshire was not encouraging. He must have gone off to London thinking that she did not care for him. Only Lady C.'s communication could give him hope.
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on November 02, 1996 at 13:09:53:
:
: : : : So nice to meet another ENFP. I was interested to see that N seems to be the common link. What does that say about us all I wonder? That we like Austen because she leaves so much to our intuition about human nature?
: : : ___________________
: : : That's an interpretation I don't remember from our early discussion of this, Brigid. Makes sense. I'm an INF JorP.
: : : Amy
: :
: : ___________________
: : we're not all N - I'm a solid ISTJ.Please don't hold it against me ;)
: : Anna
: ___________________
: Another ISTJ -- me too!
: kathleen
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I'm half ISTJ half INTJ, but the description of the latter seems to fit me better--and puts me in the wonderful company of Jane Austen and Mr. Darcy!!
Ann
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