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Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on October 30, 1996 at 22:07:01:
: : I really enjoy Austen-L, I learn a great deal from every digest, but I would never dream of posting there. There is, I suppose, a little intimidation factor going on, with all the academics expounding and delving into both minutia and broader contributing issues of Jane Austens times. As I say, I love it, but I am "just a fan" and don't feel qualified to do anything but lurk.
: : Cheryl
: I totally understand Cheryl's point - while it seems that the L regulars are very nice people, it also seems that they are more "academically" oriented, while we seem to have a more vernacular, pop-culture kind of approach to Austen. While many of us can fit into both venues, it seems best not to force our overriding love of P&P and P&P2 onto a bunch of people who are interested more in the literary value of all of Austen's works.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on October 30, 1996 at 22:13:38:
: : ___________________
: : That he treated Emma like a dog and his p---- ruled his life.
: : I never thought of him as being so lecherous. Very surprised.
: : ciao Donna
: ___________________
: I shall not think of him that way. You can show me evidence and I still shall not think of him that way.
___________________
That was not my opinion. I was just as surprised as you are.
A-list seems to be very descriptive in their candor. We are more subtle. Which I think is more fun.
Thanks Donna
Posted by Kali on October 30, 1996 at 22:18:14:
: But what does she really have to say to her Aunt?
: She wouldn't really want to go into all the sticky past history between her and Darcy, and all she could say would be "I think he's interested in me, but I'm not certain he'll ask me (again), and I'm not sure either whether I would accept him if he did ask".
___________________
Painfully enough, this is the story of my life. Why talk about agonizing and unresolvable situations that make you crazy? Especially when they involve men - those situations benefit from the least discussion!
- K
Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on October 30, 1996 at 22:21:27:
: Maybe I ought to periodically put up a sound clip from the Wizard of Oz. You know, when Glinda sings, "Come out, come out, wherever you are."
___________________
I think the quote from the Wizard of Oz that would be most appropriate to this board would be "Pay no attention to the woman behind the curtain." 
Speaking of obsessions, I have about twenty of the books from the Oz series at home (mostly paperbacks that I acquired cheap as remainders, though...)
(By the way, if you go into sound clips you'll have no competition from me -- I don't really have access to sound-capable computers.)
Link:
Follow Ups:
Posted by Janet on October 30, 1996 at 22:21:59:
:
: . She got what she asked for - he listened to her critique of him and cared enough about her (and himself) to change for the better. This is not always a common occurrence in real life, and such a transformation is not easily achieved.
: : : Janet
: : ________
: ___________________
: THIS is the kind of response one who confronts dreams of! Further, on this BB, there has been a discussion of confrontations, and frustrations arising from the lack of such. When Lizzy met Wickham again after his marriage, such a confrontation would not have produced any good "fruit" as someone noted. But when Lizzy allowed herself to speak freely to Darcy, in full emotion, much good came of it.
: I agree, Janet, such is not commonly the case!
: :Tommye
_________
I, too, noticed in the 'Confrontation' thread a post concerning why the confrontation with Darcy was fruitful due to his good moral character, but with Wickham it was not because he was basically a hopeless cause. My son's class is performing Beauty and the Beast, and we discussed the comparison between Darcy and Wickham vs. the Beast and Gaston. There are some similarities, on a more simplistic (third grade) level. Now if only my son could see the merit in making his bed!
: Janet
__________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on October 30, 1996 at 22:25:15:
: : : I've seen "Friends of Firth" and "Firth FAQ." Where is there more information about Jennifer Ehle?
: : : Sidnee
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Thank you, Sidnee! I'd love to learn more about JE! Somebody help us!
: : - K
:
: ___________________
: There is a "Jennifer Ehle's fan club". Link supplied below (I hope!)
: Bernie
:
: ___________________
___________________
Bless you, Bernie!
- K
Posted by Amy on October 30, 1996 at 22:35:24:
: (By the way, if you go into sound clips you'll have no competition from me -- I don't really have access to sound-capable computers.)
But seriously folks...
How will you hear our production of the Henry Song?
Amy
Link:
Posted by Kali on October 30, 1996 at 22:36:44:
: ... It seems like this shyness leads him to put up a proud outer shell which causes him to cut off his nose to spite his face at times (it seems like we just went through this, right Tommye?)...
: ... Neither of them is in any way dissimulative, but I would have to say that it is Elizabeth who is the least personality-constrained (does that make sense?) of the two. As Darcy has trouble "being himself" in unfamiliar situations, Elizabeth never has any trouble mastering a situation (unless you count Pemberley, but even then she is more than civil).
: : -K
: ___________________
: Gee, Kali. You KNEW I'd be reading this, didn't you. Yes, this does seem familiar.
: As to neither Darcy nor Lizzy being "dissimulative," I must confess that, for the first time [honest], I was forced to go to Webster's Dictionary for this one. Lo, there it was: "dissimulate: to hide under a false appearance." I'm impressed.
: Do you think Darcy is co-dependent? That comes to mind after your using the phrase, "personality-constrained".
: By the way, I agree with all of the above!
: (Your mini-essay, that is!)
: Regards,
: Tommye
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Tommye, you're so cool! Codependence? Gee, maybe this one is on the same list as "analretentive"? (remember that from last week? ; ) Just kidding!). I don't know! Maybe so. He certainly likes to have other people around - who understand him (Bingley, Mrs. Reynolds, his sister) - to serve as his go-between with the general public. It kind of reminds me of the guys who buy dogs so they can meet chicks - it takes the pressure off getting to know people. Maybe not the most apt analogy, but I think it illustrates the point.
Later,
Kali
Posted by Kali on October 30, 1996 at 22:44:42:
: : : I watched (again, of course) the scene where Wickham comes to Pemberly for his 3,000 Lb payoff in exchange for giving up the living, and it struck me that here was Darcy, 22 or 23 years old at the most, his mother has been dead for some time, his father has just died, and he now has to assume the management of the entire Pemberly estate. This is the time of life when a young wealthy man, who had just finished university, would be living a life of leisure, and perhaps starting to learn about what goes into running such a vast estate. This would have been when he would have spent a great deal of time in society, and learnt how to move with ease there. I think the early death of his father must have caused him to miss out on this, and account for some of his lack of ease in these situations. His *time would have been better spent* tending to the estate, but in this case we do notice the lack of *practice*.
: : :
: : : Mari
: :
: : ___________________
:
: ___________________
:
: Your right I think he missed his father very much. He shared guardianship with Col. Fitzwillams, but still many things can go wrong on such a big estate. {the pigs could get into the garden I couldn't resist} Really he became very over protected of GD,after Wickham. He question everything he did after that and became stoic in his thoughts. Pleasures were not to be seen.
: ciao Donna
___________________
Maybe this is why he's got such inner steel - he's had to "grow up" rather quickly for a young man in his class and position. No wonder he has trouble dealing with people in general - he really doen't "fit" in with most men of his age and class, nor is he comfortable with people "below" him. Gotta love him - he's got resolve!
- K
Posted by Kali on October 30, 1996 at 22:55:39:
: :
: : . She got what she asked for - he listened to her critique of him and cared enough about her (and himself) to change for the better. This is not always a common occurrence in real life, and such a transformation is not easily achieved.
: : : : Janet
: : : ________
: : ___________________
: : THIS is the kind of response one who confronts dreams of! Further, on this BB, there has been a discussion of confrontations, and frustrations arising from the lack of such. When Lizzy met Wickham again after his marriage, such a confrontation would not have produced any good "fruit" as someone noted. But when Lizzy allowed herself to speak freely to Darcy, in full emotion, much good came of it.
: : I agree, Janet, such is not commonly the case!
: : :Tommye
:
: _________
: I, too, noticed in the 'Confrontation' thread a post concerning why the confrontation with Darcy was fruitful due to his good moral character, but with Wickham it was not because he was basically a hopeless cause. My son's class is performing Beauty and the Beast, and we discussed the comparison between Darcy and Wickham vs. the Beast and Gaston. There are some similarities, on a more simplistic (third grade) level. Now if only my son could see the merit in making his bed!
: : Janet
: __________
___________________
I love you guys! You're very right! While he probably wouldn't discuss it, Darcy is - in addition to being incredibly moral - actually very progressive - and certainly NOT a MCP (male-chauvenist-pig). [Classically] Liberal minds make the most efficient learners and the most understanding companions - isn't Mr. Darcy a god? I wonder if he ever read Wollstonecraft...? well, that's pushing it!
- K
Posted by Kali on October 30, 1996 at 22:58:36:
: Mr. Darcy totally wins my respect! ... he is not afraid to be who he is, regardless of what anyone thinks
: : : : of him. He makes no apologies for who and what he is, and I think
: : : : we can all learn from this character!
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: (Well thought out comment from K snipped for brevity)
: :
: : __________
: - he listened to her critique of him and cared enough about her (and himself) to change for the better. This is not always a common occurrence in real life, and such a transformation is not easily achieved.
: : : Janet
: : ________
:
: ___________________
: I have to say, I admire Darcy more for his ability to change than his insistance on being himself. Yet it is his strong moral character which makes it possible for him to transform his outward self. The combination is what makes him such an interesting and attractive character.
: Mary H
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Sheesh, this is one smart thread! WWhat a beautiful linkage between the morality and the "transforamtion"!
- K
Posted by Grace on October 30, 1996 at 23:06:09:
: : : Hinds playing one of two Irish brothers who share a mistress.
: : : _________________
: : : I think it is called "Paint Your Wagon, Will Ya?"
: ___________________
: : : Really? (Wasn't there a Clint Eastwood film with a similar title??)
: : I missed much of the film, only stuck with it because of Hinds. Dark and interesting, both Hinds and the film. Thanks, Grace
: ___________________
: Sorry. A failed attempt at humor. Paint Your Wagon was a sadly miscast movie from a good stage musical. Imagine Clint Eastwood singing. And Jean Sea(e?)burg, bless her memory. Lee Marvin singing. Now that was inspired. He got away with it much like Rex Harrison did.
: I don't have a clue as to your movie, but in recompense here is the Ciaran Hinds link. Me? I like him. He smolders.
: Amy
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: I'm sorry I missed it - shows how humorless I am before six cups of coffee in the morning. Grace
Posted by Kali on October 30, 1996 at 23:06:32:
: AUSTEN-L is very much a "mixed" list with both scholars and amateur afficionados, and you be no means have to be a critical Derridean post-Foucaultian theorist to post there.
___________________
You call THIS encouragement? ; )
By the way, was it your post about character birthdays I responded to with HS's DOB? (Certainly not Derridean post-Foucaultian theory. Your point is well taken!).
- K
Posted by Joan, too on October 30, 1996 at 23:15:55:
: Why does she tease us? It's almost like she is saying "Lizzy wants to talk, her aunt does too. You want to know too don't you but I am not going to tell."
: Or was she afraid of disappointing and thought some things better left unsaid?
: Amy
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Why, we are, I'm sure, expected to attribute it to her wish of increasing our enjoyment of the book by suspense, according to the usual practice of elegant authors. ;-)
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 30, 1996 at 23:25:18:
: : Why does she tease us? It's almost like she is saying "Lizzy wants to talk, her aunt does too. You want to know too don't you but I am not going to tell."
: : Or was she afraid of disappointing and thought some things better left unsaid?
: : Amy
:
: ___________________
: I agree
: JA teasing teasing woman. She does it all the time.
: ciao Donna
___________________
The worst is in "Emma":
"What did she say? Just what she ought of course. A lady always does."
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anna on October 30, 1996 at 23:40:49:
: : : Why does she tease us? It's almost like she is saying "Lizzy wants to talk, her aunt does too. You want to know too don't you but I am not going to tell."
: : : Or was she afraid of disappointing and thought some things better left unsaid?
: : : Amy
: :
: : ___________________
: : I agree
: : JA teasing teasing woman. She does it all the time.
: : ciao Donna
:
: ___________________
: The worst is in "Emma":
: "What did she say? Just what she ought of course. A lady always does."
: AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
: Ann
An alternative view of this "teasing" is that Jane Austen is involving the reader in a more active way than if she wrote the dialogue for us. Sometimes there is not much that can be said really, and leaving it to our imagination allows each of us to our own view of perfection.
The best example of this to me is the second proposal scene in P&P - as we see in P&P2 there isn't really much that Lizzy can say to Darcy other than yes. Deathless prose, or even the narrative as dialogue (as in P&P1) is a little unbeliveable, even for 2 such fluent characters, when Lizzy and Darcy are under such stress. I like Austen's way of leaving it to our imagination.
Anna.
Posted by Anna on October 30, 1996 at 23:48:36:
Hi all,
I've visited this site for the first time today (31 Oct, Aus)
after Amy finally let the AustenL know of it's existence.
I wish I'd been here for the start of the virtual read/watch,
but better late than never.
I was going to ask Amy by private email, but other late comers
may also be interested - are the old messages from this site
archived anywhere online? If so I'd love the details,
it's nice to share an obsession
BFN
Anna.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 30, 1996 at 23:49:06:
: As Mrs Gardiner says, obstinancy may be his greatest fault, rather than pride, and sometimes that manifests as constancy I guess.
: Hilary
___________________
Hilary,
I hadn't picked up on Mrs. Gardiner's comment about Darcy's
stubborness. I think it does fit in well with his drive to
win Lizzy.
Ann
Posted by Amy on October 30, 1996 at 23:52:50:
: Why, we are, I'm sure, expected to attribute it to her wish of increasing our enjoyment of the book by suspense, according to the usual practice of elegant authors. ;-)
: Joan, too
___________________
Oh yes. I know. You are all quite right, I am sure. I only wish sometimes she had not the pretension to the sort of elegance that consists of tormenting respectable romantics.
Amy
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