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Posted by Donna on October 29, 1996 at 20:58:40:
: : Another thing that I love about this scene is that after Darcy ask's Lizzy to meet his sister he gives her a wonderful look of longing.His look lasts longer than it's supposed until finally he looks away, it reminds him of his feelings for her and he just can't stand not having her.Ooooh the poor man is in love. :IF
:
: ___________________
: I have been reading this BB for about two weeks now and I finally felt a need to contribute. Probably the oldtimers are aware but maybe not everyone that Colin and Jennifer we carrying on a bona fide love affair while they were making the film and according to London news reports this made the loving looks we all enjoy so much very real. Colin reports he is not ready to settle down yet and at that time Jennifer was not commenting. Shelagh
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I am sure they could of had an affair, but I think it makes for good publicity. Joan Rivers said "Who cares what they say just so they spell your name right." The same thing with Hugh Grant true or publicity?
He seems to be going full steam ahead in his career. So I don't believe everything that I read. That would be the first question I would ask him if I had the chance.True or false Mr. Frith is there any truth to the rumor that you had an affair with the JE in P&P2.
Posted by Ann on October 29, 1996 at 20:59:13:
: It is a small scene, but links wonderfully between the end of
: Episode 3 and the letter.
: Rebecca
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You make me very glad that I ordered the tapes today. I should be enjoying that scene by Friday.
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 29, 1996 at 21:02:52:
: Anne:
: Has anyone seen the old Masterpiece Theater series "The Duchess of Duke Street"? It is supposedly based on an actual person.(My PBS station is re-showing it now.) ility.
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Oh, yes indeed! I saw it when it originally came out, and it was, in fact, my first exposure to Masterpiece Theatre. After that, quite a few of the subsequent productions failed to measure up by comparison. I wish they would re-broadcast it here!
Joan, too
Posted by Ann on October 29, 1996 at 21:08:16:
: Not necessarily...while Mr. Darcy is steadfastness itself, Mr. Firth is...shall we say...not.
: Cheryl
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Very good point Cheryl. From everything I've read about
Firth he seems a bit....well, thick (in the head for those
who remember the daggy thread).
Ann
Posted by Joan, too on October 29, 1996 at 21:08:57:
: : Darcy-like men certainly do exist.... but alas, even they occasionally display bursts of Hurst.
: Ever a realist, Grace
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And I suppose, to be fair, that the same could be said about those of the female persuasion - Lizzies do exist, but they, too, are occasionally subject to bursts of Bingley-Hurst.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by DonnaT on October 29, 1996 at 21:14:15:
:
: : It is a small scene, but links wonderfully between the end of
: : Episode 3 and the letter.
: : Rebecca
:
: ___________________
: You make me very glad that I ordered the tapes today. I should be enjoying that scene by Friday.
: Ann
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You are too right, I rewatched the tapes today (no hardship there) and you can just imagine when Darcy shakes his head that he is saying "Damn"as he strides towards Rosings. I think the price of the tapes was worth every cent too!! DonnaT
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 29, 1996 at 21:18:22:
:
: :
: : : _I managed to get the tapes for $75.00 from Colombia
: : House -
:
: ___________________
:
:
: I too got my tapes from Columbia House but managed to get them for $60 on one of their 'specials'. I winced at paying that but they have been worth the investment. If things keep going the way they have, I may have to buy another set as these will be worn through.
: Anne
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I just ordered mine today from Critic's Choice Video (Ph#
1-800-367-7765), with shipping it came to $80.27, and they
said it should be here by Friday (I have a fun weekend coming
up). The catalogue number for P&P2 is SKANE015400.
Ann
Posted by Ann on October 29, 1996 at 21:20:48:
: Dearest Laura, I believe we all realized the spirit in which you made the comment (thus my smiley in my response). We all realize that to the non-believer we seem to have no lives when we actually have the happiest of lives centered around this obsession (with one or two other obsessions that we have mentioned). A life filled with joy, whatever the origin of that joy, must be pleasant indeed.
: Anne
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Well said, my dear name-sake.
(Though you do spell it wrong ;-) ).
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 29, 1996 at 21:27:53:
: Or maybe Darcy knew Lizzy was the one from the start, but the right side of his brain (on a link similar to Caroline's?) was trying to rationalize/deny/dissuade him?
: __________
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Which begs the question: when did Darcy realise that he was
hooked--regardless of how much he may not have wanted to be?
I believe he thought he was very much in love by the time
Jane and Lizzy were leaving Netherfield after Jane's illness.
"I believe Mr. Darcy is mourning the loss of Miss Bennet's
pert opinions and fine eyes". "Quite the contrary, I assure
you." He knew he was in love (never been so bewitched), but
was repulsed at the thought of being attracted to one whose
connections were so decidedly below his own. Thus he was
glad to have some distance between himself and Lizzy.
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 29, 1996 at 21:31:45:
:
: : Indeed it was! Isn't that actually his regular shirt with the collar unbuttoned? And also looks the same as the one he wears when he swims.
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
:
: Yes, to Elizabeth's dress -- the beige one is the one she wears the most. As to Darcy's shirt, that is the type he always wears apparently. You are right Joan, too, that it is the same in the swim and also when he has finished his letter at Rosings and is splashing his face with water. I guess that is all he had for "casual" wear.
: Rebecca
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Well, I'm sure wasn't the only one he had - he could certainly afford plenty of them. ;-) But when fully dressed, the collar is about the only part of a gentleman's shirt that shows, and even that is swathed in cravat, so it may actually have been treated more as an undergarment, like the present day men's white T-shirt.
Joan, too
Posted by Joan, too on October 29, 1996 at 21:46:23:
: : Or maybe Darcy knew Lizzy was the one from the start, but the right side of his brain (on a link similar to Caroline's?) was trying to rationalize/deny/dissuade him?
: : __________
:
: ___________________
: Which begs the question: when did Darcy realise that he was
: hooked--regardless of how much he may not have wanted to be?
: I believe he thought he was very much in love by the time
: Jane and Lizzy were leaving Netherfield after Jane's illness.
: "I believe Mr. Darcy is mourning the loss of Miss Bennet's
: pert opinions and fine eyes". "Quite the contrary, I assure
: you." He knew he was in love (never been so bewitched), but
: was repulsed at the thought of being attracted to one whose
: connections were so decidedly below his own. Thus he was
: glad to have some distance between himself and Lizzy.
: Ann
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In one of those post-proposal conversations that were so lamentably left out of the film, Lizzie asks Darcy when he realized it, and he replies that he "was in the middle before [he] knew that [he] had begun."
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 29, 1996 at 21:48:59:
There is one case I know of in Austen where there is a confrontation. Col. Brandon did fight Willoughby in S&S:
Chapter 31 (Conversation between Elinor and Brandon)
"Have you ," she continued, after a short silence, "ever seen Mr. Willoughby since you left him at Barton?"
"Yes," he replied gravely, "once I have. One meeting was unavoidable."
Elinor, startled by his mannner, looked at him anxiously, saying:
"What! have you met him to---"
"I could meet him in no other way. Eliza had confessed to me, though most reluctantly, the name of her lover; and when he returned to town, which was within a fortnight after myself, we met by appointment, he to defend, I to punish his conduct. We returned unwounded, and the meeting, therefore, never got abroad."
Elinor sighed over the fancied necessity of this; but to a man and a soldier, she presumed not to censure it.
Ann
Posted by Janet on October 29, 1996 at 22:53:55:
: : : Or maybe Darcy knew Lizzy was the one from the start, but the right side of his brain (on a link similar to Caroline's?) was trying to rationalize/deny/dissuade him?
: : : __________
: :
: : ___________________
: : Which begs the question: when did Darcy realise that he was
: : hooked--regardless of how much he may not have wanted to be?
: : I believe he thought he was very much in love by the time
: : Jane and Lizzy were leaving Netherfield after Jane's illness.
: : "I believe Mr. Darcy is mourning the loss of Miss Bennet's
: : pert opinions and fine eyes". "Quite the contrary, I assure
: : you." He knew he was in love (never been so bewitched), but
: : was repulsed at the thought of being attracted to one whose
: : connections were so decidedly below his own. Thus he was
: : glad to have some distance between himself and Lizzy.
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
: In one of those post-proposal conversations that were so lamentably left out of the film, Lizzie asks Darcy when he realized it, and he replies that he "was in the middle before [he] knew that [he] had begun."
: Joan, too
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Could Darcy's "Quite the contrary" response have meant that he was so taken with Lizzy that he was not mourning the loss of her, but was rejoicing that he had found her - in keeping with his being "in the middle before he knew that he had begun".
_________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Janet on October 29, 1996 at 22:57:58:
: : Does it bother anyone else how non-confrontive everyone is in P&P? The situation that immediately comes to mind is when Wickham returns to Longbourne with Lydia, then has a private moment with Lizzy. While she does, in fact, let him know that she is aware of what REALLY happened, she is altogether amiable and even passive towards him. Gross. I mean, the man lied and lied to her, her family, everyone in the town, cast grievous aspersions on Darcy's character, then acted out his disgusting penchant for little girls by absconding with Lydia and taking her virginity away (though she appeared eager to have it taken, he was more than aware of the grave, irretrievable nature of the damage he was doing to her).
: : Even Mr. B was amiable. I mean, couldn't somebody just confront the slimy deceiver?
: : Of course, there are quite a few more instances in P&P.
: : Also, in Sense and Sensibility.
: :
: : People just made assumptions about others all over the place, and few bothered to check out the facts. Then, when they got the facts, they still didn't confront!
: : Most frustrating!
: : Tommye
:
: ___________________
: I had never thought of it that way,very interesting.
: I always thought they were confrontive, maybe not in a hostile aggresive way but I thought the subtleness more poignant. I almost admired the way Lizzie could insult Wickham without giving the slime ball anything to come back with. I was surprised and Mr.B not showing the least bit of hostility towards the man who had to paid off to marry his daughter.
: Mich
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Yes, although Mr. B had sworn that Longbourn was one address where Mr. and Mrs. Wickham would never be welcome. Mrs. B must have had her way with that one.
: : Janet__________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Janet on October 29, 1996 at 23:16:24:
: : Yes, especially after the superfluous Mr. Collins. A little bit of him goes a long way. Did he not seem surprised at being excluded from this excursion? Where is his prize? Oh, yes, the shelves at Hunsford cottage and the honour of lathering Lady C. twice weekly. Sorry.
: : Back to Darcy - who was almost as ashamed of Lady C.'s poor behaviour as he was mortified by the Bingley sisters or the Bennets. He was repelled by her treatment of others, including himself, yet they were both intrigued by this young upstart Lizzy. The nerve! The audacity! I am not accustomed to such behaviour! Yes, I am excessively diverted. Doubly sorry.
: : _________
:
: ___________________
: I love the line from Mr. Collins: "Our intamacy with Rosings
: is a blessing of which few could boast" or the Austen
: version: "our situation with regard to Lady C.'s family is
: indeed the sort of extraordinary advantage and blessing which
: few can boast".
: Indeed they could not!!!
: Ann
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Perfect - I love that line, "Few could boast". Now I truly am ROTFLOL (is that right?) Only Mr. C would boast of such things, as if they were his own accomplishments. He must have learned the art of the "adopted boast" from Lady C who is so proficient at this. At Rosings after she admonishes Lizzy for not practicing more on the piano, she proclaims "there are few people in England who have a finer appreciation for music than myself, and if I should have played I should have been a true proficient". Talk about nerve! This reminds me of Mr. C's announcement at Netherfield after Mary humiliates herself at the piano when he proclaims how music is perfectly is in keeping with his position as a clergy (imagine him a clergy), and "If I played I should love to give the company an air, indeed I would!" (All quotes are paraphrased as I have not memorized all lines - yet).
__________
Posted by Janet on October 29, 1996 at 23:24:43:
: : : : :
: : : : : : Yes, but Mr. Knightly pitied her more for her financial situation than her marital one.
: : : : : : :
: : : : : Even though she continued to write romantic novels, JA seemed to be saying that only marriages where the parties were well matched and truly in love were really advisable.
: : : : : :
: : : : : : Mary H
: : : : :
: : : : : ___________________
: : : : :
: : : : : : For most women of the time, financial situation was tied to marriage. Jane Austen did not lead a life of affluence, but she did at least have a brother who was in a position to provide financial assistance. She also had the power to earn some money through her novels. Was it for these reasons
: : : : : perhaps that she could afford to take a more romantic view of marriage?
: : : : : Getting back to Charlotte, let's remember that when she grows tired of her poultry,etc. she will no doubt become mistress of Longbourn and have the added diversion of living near her family.
: : : : : Hilary, in the early 1800's, under the same circumstances as Charlotte ---I would have taken the same deal. I am being serious.
: : : : : Grace
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : :
: : : : I don't want to seem high and mighty. But I do think JA's *intention* was to advise us that Charlotte's decision was wrong and Lizzie's two were right.
: : : : Hilary
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : : Jane sent a definite message about the advantage of marrying for love, I do agree.
: : : As for the decisions we might make as single women of the time, I'm sure we would do whatever was necessary to survive.
: : : Grace
: :
: : ___________________
: : I have tried in vain,It will not do...
: : I can visualize lying in bed on my wedding night when Mr.Collins, my husband walks in, a big smile across his face and
: : NO NO NO NO I cannot go any furthur! since you could not be married without consumating the marriage I could not marry him. ooooo ick!!!!
: : You are very right about surviving but surely there was another way. What other options were available to women? Anyone know?
: : Mich
:
: ___________________
:
: : Mich, the lighting in those times would have been very poor.......is that any consolation to you?
: Vision problems can prove a blessing at times. Grace
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But the words he speaks, and the topics of (non)conversation/condescention, he being "quite enraptured" and all. Would earplugs be sufficient?
: : Janet
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Follow Ups:
Posted by Anne on October 29, 1996 at 23:28:40:
:
: ___________________
: Well said, my dear name-sake.
: (Though you do spell it wrong ;-) ).
: Ann
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Actually it is spelled Ann -- but I had to make it different so added the e instead of a 2.
Anne
Posted by Janet on October 29, 1996 at 23:36:42:
: :
: : : ___________________
: : : Great minds must truly think alike! After viewing and reviewing P&P, I got to thinking how wonderful Cf would be in the Scarlet Pimpernel. I gort the book, read it about ten times, rented the original movie with Leslie Howard & Merle Oberon (surprisingly good but not always faithful to the book) and started to write a screenplay more in keeping with the suspense and issues in the book. Just a bit more of my CF and indirectly P&P obsession. I, too, read the Emma Tennant books and found them in accurate and generally dreadful. Julia Barret was somewhat less dreadful. I thought "if they can get this rubbish published, why can't I write something?" Not a sequel, mind you, just some ruminations.. mostly about what happens to Darcy in those months between Rosings and Pemberley. I have about fifteen pages written, which wasn't so difficult, given my obsession with the book and telecast. (I began to speak "Austenese" many months ago.)
: : : One related book, which I found helpful in explaining some social questions of the time, is "What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew" by Pool. It is not a stuffy, scholarly work, but well-researched and easy to read. Great reference for 19th century Brit-Lit.
: : : One thing I learned from this book was the reason for the high rank Darcy enjoyed. Lady Catherine says somewhere in P&P novel that he was "from an ancient, though untitled, family.." His first name Fitzwilliam (from the French fils or son) as well as his last (d'Arcy) are from the French. Families that could trace their ancestry back to the Normans, even without titles, were considered superior, it seems, to other nobility, and perhaps, Anglo Saxons. In fact, in JA many of her heroes have names that are basically French, while the villians usually do not. (My own observation)
: : : Anyway, I have digressed here a great deal. Perhaps this is not the correct place to post a message, but I had such a hard time figuring out what to do, that I thought I should say everything in one place rather than risk screwing up somewhere. (I am not very technically endowed.)
: : : BTW, I love reading everyone's comments, many of which reflect my own questions, thoughts, and feelings.
: : : Hasta luego. genie
: :
: : ___________________
: : Incidentally, Fitzwilliam means bastard son of William. It was not uncommon in those days for males of royal or noble standing to have extra marital dalliances ( potential Grace and Anna-Karin fodder here, I think!). The progeny of these unions were often not ostracised, and if they were the only male scion, they could inherit titles and estates (I think I'm right in saying that -- help HC, please). In order to distinguish them from the true lineage "Fitz" was added to their name.
: : Bernie
: ___________________
:
: : Bernie, one entire line of the family has Fitzwilliam as a surname and poor Darcy gets it as a first??!! What was Jane trying to tell us???
: I was already worried enough about the gene pool knowing that traits of Lady Catherine, Mrs. Bennet and Mr. Collins were floating about. What am I to think now?? Grace
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What a cute question - I wondered the same. Does this imply that the head of the Colonel Fitzwilliam's line was the first to be had (out of wedlock), and Darcy was named after this great personage?
: : Janet
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Follow Ups:
Posted by Janet on October 29, 1996 at 23:54:55:
: I really enjoy Austen-L, I learn a great deal from every digest,
: ___________________
: Me too. That, and this thread, is why I finally posted something about the board on the Austen list today. I am sure when they see what it is they will not mind at all that I headed this nonsense off at their path.
: Now, would they ever believe we are more moderate, less bawdy and less gushing than the Firthlisters? Yeah, probably. We are all cousins.
: Amy
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Thank you for the background, and thank you for creating this BB, Amy. It really is fun to follow along the threadlines, even if they are "mostly all silly" (was that your analysis?). 'Everyone seems so amiable, and I am delighted to meet any friend of Elizabeth's. I am quite enraptured'. Sorry, even Mr. Collins is growing on me...it's getting bad...so silly.
: : Janet
P.S. Disconnected again, and definitely after less than a minute. Maybe it's due to the Mac factor.
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Follow Ups:
Posted by janet on October 30, 1996 at 00:03:43:
: :
: : : :Lucky, lucky Jennifer! (Sigh...);) Sarah
: :
: : ___________________
: : Not necessarily...while Mr. Darcy is steadfastness itself, Mr. Firth is...shall we say...not.
: : Cheryl
:
: ___________________
: You are very correct...I musn't go confusing the two, it is just a movie after all. That brought to mind the whole character dialogue between Lizzy and Charlotte Lucas. Lizzy made a good point that even though a person might seem very nice on the outside, it is good to get an understanding of their character before making any rash judgements. Good insight from Jane Austen!! Sarah
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Interesting that Lizzy proceeded directly to not follow her own advice at that very point in the story, and did not come to her senses until some time later.
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