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Posted by CarolynI i on October 25, 1996 at 15:14:08:
: :
: : I have been pondering Davies addition of Darcy's swim to the story and I really like it. Throughout the show we are shown scenes of Lizzie doing healthly, outdoorsy sorts of activities. I like the idea that Darcy has that side to him as well. It makes them seem even more well suited.
:
: ___________________
: I've also felt that it gives him a better reason for walking
: away from Elizabeth and then running to find her again. It
: certainly added to his embarassment at seeing her, after all
: he was half naked!
Yes, and did you notice that Lizzy's eyes skimming over Darcy before quickly looking away?
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anna-Karin schander on October 25, 1996 at 15:20:00:
: : It seemed that wherever Mr. Bingley was, so were his two sisters
: : Caroline and Louisa. Yet Louisa is married to Mr. Hurst.
: : Do they (Mr. and Mrs. Hurst) not have their own estate and own
: : lives to lead (or do they just follow Bingley and Caroline
: : everywhere?).
: : By the way, the character of Mr. Hurst must have been a breeze
: : for the actor playing him -- all he did was drink and sleep
: : throughout the movie!
:
: ___________________
:
: : Days ago, someone suggested that Darcy would take his comfort with a married lady whose husband was neglectful. For me, this opened up new, and horrifying, perspectives on the importance of Mr. and Mrs. Hurst in the story.
___________________
I do not think mr Darcy would ever involve himself with a married lady he was rather fastidious and upright.
He may have had some experience with some lady before he met Lizzy but hardly with married ones
or prostitutes.
Anna-Karin
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Posted by Carolyn on October 25, 1996 at 15:22:09:
: Finally: did Lizzie not catch Darcy's backhanded compliment in the drawing room of Netherfield when he said that a lady must constantly improve her mind with extensive reading following a conversation that labelled her "a great reader"?
:
: : Jak
:
: ___________________
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I don't if Lizzie would have caught on because she had just mentioned that she is not a great reader and probably thought it was an insult to her.
Posted by hat on October 25, 1996 at 15:33:05:
:
: : Yes, but Mr. Knightly pitied her more for her financial situation than her marital one.
: : :
: Even though she continued to write romantic novels, JA seemed to be saying that only marriages where the parties were well matched and truly in love were really advisable.
: :
: : Mary H
:
: ___________________
:
: : For most women of the time, financial situation was tied to marriage. Jane Austen did not lead a life of affluence, but she did at least have a brother who was in a position to provide financial assistance. She also had the power to earn some money through her novels. Was it for these reasons
: perhaps that she could afford to take a more romantic view of marriage?
: Getting back to Charlotte, let's remember that when she grows tired of her poultry,etc. she will no doubt become mistress of Longbourn and have the added diversion of living near her family.
: Hilary, in the early 1800's, under the same circumstances as Charlotte ---I would have taken the same deal. I am being serious.
: Grace
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Mary, Grace and Ann, I agree that Charlotte may have Longbourne, her own children and parents to divert her later, (although to be fair, her own family are not the brightest bulbs on the porch (thanks, Donna!)). And I understand the pressures of the time on women and that it was not unusual to marry without love.
I don't want to seem high and mighty. But I do think JA's *intention* was to advise us that Charlotte's decision was wrong and Lizzie's two were right. If marrying for love was a new idea then, which I have read, maybe JA wanted to promote the idea because she believed in it strongly. It probably vindicated decisions she had made in her own life. And yes, she probably could afford, more than some others, to take a more romantic view.
As for marrying Mr.C in the same circumstances, Grace, who knows? It would depend so much on how desperate one felt. I think I wouldn't if I could see a little food and a roof over my head another way.
Hilary
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Posted by Bernie on October 25, 1996 at 15:35:48:
: : I get the distinct impression that Mr. Bennet is happy to have Lydia off to
: : Brighton. "We shall have no peace at Longbourn..." We know him to be a man
: : who injoys his solitude, and with Lydia out of the house he could then
: : enjoy peace?
: : Your thoughts?
: : Jak
:
: ___________________
:
: I don't think Mr. Bennet was happy to let Lydia go with the intention that he would enjoy peace with Lydia gone. Mary, Kitty, and especially Mrs. Bennet are so silly that Mr. Bennet would never enjoy a completely peaceful home. I think Mr. Bennet knew that if he DIDN'T allow Lydia to go to Brighton that Lydia would whine entirely too much -- enough to cause a big disturbance at home.
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I totally agree. We saw enough of Lydia's petulance before she went to Brighton to suggest that she would have been unbearable if she had remained at Longbourne.
First of all at the table, while the whole family is eating, she askes Lizzie to persuade Mr. Bennet in taking the entire family to Brighton. When Lizzie states that she rather not, Lydia throws down her cutlery and says "I want to go to Brighton". Then she brags in front of her sisters -- and taunts Kitty especially -- when she gets invited by Mrs. Forster. She is so illmannered, uncaring, unfeeling and so SELFISH, she makes me want to scream!! Every time I get to this bit of the film, I feel like grabbing hold of Lydia and giving her a good hiding.
Bernie
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Posted by Carolyn on October 25, 1996 at 15:36:31:
: This has been a favorite theme during the virtual read and view. Another one from this weeks chapters that we haven't mentioned yet comes when Lizzy is giving Jane an alternate explanation for Miss Bingley's hinting at a union between Bingley and Georgiana in her letter to Jane. Lizzy says,
: "she is the more anxious to get Miss Darcy for her brother, from the notion that where there has been *one* intermarriage, she may have less trouble in achieving a second."
: This is, of course, the rumor that will make the rounds concerning Lizzy and Darcy when Jane and Bingley announce their engagament, and happily, in this case, becomes fact.
: Cheryl
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My favorite bit is when Lizzie wants to go Netherfield and see Jane, Mrs. B says "Go to Netherfield, why there is NOTHING there for you" yet when Lizzy gets to Netherfield the first person she sees is Darcy--definately SOMETHING.
Posted by Linda on October 25, 1996 at 15:44:35:
: : :I suppose in the book he left to go and compose himself and returned to show Lizzy he had changed (figuratively, not literally, although the literal change, as you say, works quite well.)
: : : Cheryl
: :
: : ___________________
: : I agree the swimming scene works because it shows how Darcy has changed.
: : He impulsively decides to cool off in the water and dives headlong into the lake. This spontaneous act shows how he's becoming less stiff and proper, and more relaxed and open.
: : This is mirrored by his physical disarray when he sees Lizzy. Although he's quick to get dressed up again (he hasn't gotten *that* informal!) it shows he's loosening up.
:
: ___________________
: I agree with you all -- it does show how Darcy has changed.
: This was also one of my favourite scenes -- the unexpected meeting and then Darcy running to try to catch Lizzy before she leaves. I think I've worn out my tape on that scene!!
___________________
I love this scene as well. It really adds to the chance meeting. But, I can't figure out how he can get inside, out of the wet clothes, dried off and into others and out to the carriage in the time it takes Lizzy and the Gardiners to get to the carriage since they head for it immediately after the encounter.
In the book, they walk around the estate for quite awhile before he meets them again.
But it only takes a tiny bit to suspend my disbelief and relish these scenes again and again.
Linda
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Posted by Carolyn on October 25, 1996 at 15:48:15:
This my favorite scene in the whole movie. I could watch again and again, especially the jealous reaction at the mention of Wickham.
Posted by Anna-Karin Schander on October 25, 1996 at 15:50:18:
: : : Donna, it is much too early in the morning to conjure up such nauseating images.
: :
: : Agreed. Double Ewwww. Donna I vow you like to make us squirm as much as JA herself.
: :
: : : But seriously (just for a moment, don't panic) I don't think Caroline would allow such a thing. Her object is not to bed Darcy but to wed him and get her clutches on his name, his money and his estate. That whole "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" thing.
: : ___________________
: : You think? She is so irrational in her wooing tactics that I do believe she possesses an obsession for Darcy near equal to Darcy's for Lizzy.
: : Amy
:
: ___________________
: I believe she is obsessed, but I never saw it as an obsession for Darcy's physical person, hard to believe, I know, that anyone would not be obsessed with Darcy's physical person (Mmmmmm!) but that the reasons stated above are her main goals. Not that his good looks aren't important, if he were less attractive, she may not have pursued him with as much desperation, but she might also have stood a better chance.
: As to her irrational wooing tactics- yes she goes about it all wrong, but obsessive people are not always rational people in the throes of their obsession. Were that the case, Darcy surely would have figured out that he would get farther with Lizzy if he wasn't continuely offending her. And we would have something better to do at 7:00 in the morning than to expound on the fictional motives of fictional characters. Personally, though, I am having a lovely morning doing just that!
: Cheryl
: Amy, I thought you were on vacation, are you still home? Go to it, girl!
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I think you had got something. I think Darcy and his name,status and Pemberly was as insepparable as siamese twins for Caroline.
The one could not exist without the other.
She wanted him in marriage for name and status. she would submit to her duties in the marital bed but I do not think she would enjoy them very much she seem to be a
rather cold person. At least she never seem
to tempt Darcy. But maybe she was inlove in him in her cold way.
But apparently she can visit Pemberly after his marriage and was civil to Elisabeth so she can not have been to heartbrooken.
I think she never would try to involve herself with a married man (darcy after marriage) that would ruin her reputation
forever and ruin almost every possibility on the marriage market. After Darcys marriage I think she maybe eventually tried to get another welthy husband.
But maybe she had invested to many years in chasing Darcy and was starting getting a little old on the hard marriage market.
On the other hand she was handsome and had a rather big dowry so hopefully she succeded.
Anna-Karin
Posted by Bernie on October 25, 1996 at 15:51:20:
: ..... they sounded entirely American!
: : : Horrors!
: : : Ann
: :
: : ___________________........ kids born and brought up in MK have developed an accent of their own which is a hybrid between American and Australian (something to do with the kind of TV they watch). I have a hard time understanding what they are trying to say a lot of the time!
: : Bernie
: :
: : ___________________
:
: ___________________
: We are used to kids here assuming an American accent whenever they take on a persona - skits, drama, telling commercials etc. And of course there are a lot of US words and slang here. But I'm surprised to hear about an Aust influence in MK. Is it because of the soaps?
: Hilary
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Yes! They are brought up on a diet of Neighbours, Home and Away, A Country Practice and a few others I just can't recall. By the way, Neighbours gets one of the highest viewing ratings week in week out. Scary isn't it!!
Bernie
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Posted by Marsha on October 25, 1996 at 15:51:47:
:
: : I was the same way about the book, couldn't put it down. I don't know many details about the movie, but I think Jessica Lange must be playing Rose, the older sister, and Michelle Pfeiffer must be Ginny (a tough role). Jennifer Jason Leigh must be Caroline and Jason Robards, of course, the father. I could see some of those parts being Oscar material if done well, can't you?
: Wish I could offer help in converting to dunams for you - but all I know is that an acre is 4047 square meters. Does that help at all? Needless to say, the farm in the book was a large and prosperous piece of property.
: Happy reading! (I'm enjoying Jane's House this week, a nice story about a widower and his kids - nothing to do with Jane Austen, though.)
: Grace
: P.S. I share your desire for happy endings - maybe that's another reason I love Austen!
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Do you know when the movie will be showing? The book sounds marvelous, & I would love to read it, but I can't afford to read another huge book (I read Gone with the wind" this week, so I need a week of normal sleep, at least! (that's one ending I hate!)
I've been busy for a week and it seems forever-addiction is a bad thing!
Well I am SO glad to be back!
Marsha
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Posted by hat on October 25, 1996 at 15:58:42:
: The scene that evidently was cut was where Mr. Bennet talks about Lizzy needing to be jilted too.
: Anne
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I thought this was an intreresting scene because it implied in a very quirky way that Mr.B saw through Wickham (he obviously thought he shouldn't be spreading stories of his own misfortune, anyway). And, again in an backhander, he implies that he thinks Darcy is probably okay, or at least no worse than your regular rich man who is used to having his own way. But maybe he was just stirring, after all??
Hilary
PS. Like all this talk of pasta. Donna, I saw Moonstruck a long time ago, and I remember enjoying it very much.
Posted by Carolyn on October 25, 1996 at 16:05:46:
Once she wanders onto this higher path, she is more closely aligned with Jane and a division is clearly established between the more genteel, deserving older sisters and the uncouth, undeserving younger ones.
: __________
___________________
I always thought that the filmakers did a good job in separating the family. In many scenes you get Lizzy and Jane (and Mr. B) together and (Mrs. B) Kitty and Lydia together. Mary seems to be left out by both sides.
For example, at dinner Jane and Lizzy are on either side of Mr. B, while Lydia, Kitty and Mrs. B at the other end, Mary in the middle.
When Mr. B tells them he has been to visit Bingley, Jane & Lizzy are beside him, while Lydia, Kitty and Mrs. B get together and Mary is at the table all by herself. There are many others, too. Separate carriages to Netherfield ball (though Mary does get to ride with her sisters and Mrs. B). Mr. Collins perusal of brides, admiring Wickham on horseback, etc.
No wonder Mary turns to Mr. Collins, as he is the only one in the family she can relate to.
P.S. I think the biggest lie told to Lizzie by Wickham is "I have not the resentful nature that some men have". Yet I find his nature to be resentful indeed.
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Posted by hat on October 25, 1996 at 16:13:00:
: : : Lately I've been troubled by Darcy's "scruples that had prevented me from forming any serious design." Aside from the obvious offensiveness, is he also saying that he had designs on Lizzy that were NOT serious, that he intended to flirt with her and sport with her affections as long as he pleased without any serious purpose?
: :
: Hmm, it's hard for me to see Darcy as a flirt. He seems much too serious for that. Of course, he does spar with Lizzy, and seems to enjoy that, but it is never with the idea of attracting her. Rather, he does it almost against his will. I think he is far too honorable to ever sport with a woman's affections.
: Mary H
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Arnessa, I agree with all these fine comments. Have they convinced you?
Hilary
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Posted by Anna-Karin Schander on October 25, 1996 at 16:30:18:
:
: : It is not that she would want him,he might be so deseprate/need to want her. It's only my sequel.
: : ciao Donna
:
: ___________________
: I cannot imagine Darcy being *that* desperate, there are certainly many other alternate routes one can take that would not lead to Caroline Bingley! Several leap to mind, but I'll leave that to Grace or Anna-karin to enumerate.
: Cheryl
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what should that imply!! ;);)
But I do not think Caroline ever would get Darcy.
He do not seem to have shown any interst in her before he met Lizzy.and I do not think she would have got him even if he never had met Lizzy or lost
her either by not marrying her or more likely he would
have been left a widowed by her
early death.
But It would be a intresting
plot to see Caroline chasing a Darcy stricken by grief over
Lizzys early death.Maybe she had died in childbed after giving birth to too many children in a few years ( a common fate a that time).
Darcy would maybe feel responsible for Lizzys death.
maybe caroline would try to snare him then.
Otherwhise I think her only way she could have got him was if it was thought that he had compromised her in any way.then the duty bound Darcy maybe would have thought it his duty to
marry her.
Anna-karin
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Posted by Donna on October 25, 1996 at 16:32:31:
: : : : : Every time after this Darcy seems to watch Elizabeth with interest. I couldn't help thinking "Poor guy probably wishes he'd been nicer to her!"
: : : : : Rose
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : : Do you think Darcy knew that Lizzy could hear him? I had assumed he wasn't aware she was within earshot.(That would be very ungentlemanly indeed!)
: : : : It's a backwards compliment (she's pretty, but not enough to tempt me) but the fact that he's analyzing her looks in the first place shows he's noticed her and considers her a possible source of temptation.
: : : : This is maybe another example of Darcy's "one step forward, two steps back" approach to the relationship. If Lizzy was completely out of the question, he wouldn't be thinking about her at all (we don't hear him making comments about Mary Bennett or Charlotte, for example).
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Darcy is probably feeling oppressed by the situation - people he doesn't know, many of them coarse and obnoxious (i.e. Hurricane Bennet Family), and his own pride, probably brought on by shyness. He is most likely overwhelmed, and so lashes out rather than letting himself get swept away by it all. Whether he is attracted to Lizzy or not (which I'm sure he is) isn't important - he probably wouldn't have been any nicer had he not been attracted to her. And, yes, i think he at least half-wanted her - or anyone - to hear his remark, which was a direct rebuff to someone's attempt to engage him in the events going on around him. I think he wanted to express disinterest in the entire situation, and his remark about Lizzy was the most direct way for him to do it (if he admitted, in any way, an interest in her, he would be admitting that he actually wanted to be there).
: : : I hope that made sense,
: : : K
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Yes it makes sense because he doesn't want to be there. In the Making of P&P book Colin Firth has said that Elizabeth overhears Mr.Darcy.This is what they want us to see. Then he says when she walks past him and gives him a cheeky look,that is what Triggers his attraction. Andrews quote; "Darcy was used to looking at other people like that,but was not used to being looked at like that himself." "So at that moment,I think, he notices her simply out of bewilderment and curiosity;"this is the quote from the book. "So he wants to know a little bit more." The book goes on to say "that It strikes me that you can be on a fatal course from that moment on whether you konw it or not." That he has never really looked at a women
: : with real eyes,with real interest though he has admired women in a casual way. "The truth is that he is bored. It probably the first oppotinity he's ever had in his life to be the pursuer rather than the pursued: it's irresistble.
: : "What starts out intriguing becomes profoundly erotic for him."
: : I love this book. Donna
:
: ___________________
: I also think it is an important fact that he does not want to be there.I suppose Bingley almost had dragged him there.
: And he is only finding vulgar noisy people of a class under him with he does not normally associate .He tries to endure the party as well as he can dancing with the only ladies he know miss Bingley and mrs Hurst (we do not see it in the TV adaptation)But he is annoyed and bored and probable want to go back to Netherfield as soon as possible. To a still greater annoyance
: Bingley has a great time with the most beatiful girl in the room and then wants Darcy to stand up with a less attractive girl.In the Making of P&P Colin Firth says that Darcy probably wasa little jealous of Bingley that moment ater all
: Drcy was richer and more handsome and here Bingley has got the prettiest girl.So he certainly does not want to take the second best.
: He is irritated and just want to be left alone
: and hope the ball will end soon. That is maybe why he is rude (the last is my own interpretation I once did almost the same at a party when I was 14 and did not want to dance)
: I do not think Darcy knew that Lizzy heard him
: people often thinks that people do not hear them
: in a crowd of people but often they do.
: Anna-Karin
___________________
When she walks past him and gives him that cheeky look is when I think he realizes that she heard. That is what it looks like on the video,plus he can see she is telling Carlotte word for word what he said. Then when she is at Nfield when she walks into the billard room she snubs him again,then he tries to be really nice to her after that and inquires about Jane one more thing he compares her with Georgiana that his way of being nice and again about reading. Lizzie won't forgive for his remark that makes him all the more intrigued.That is what leds me to believe that he knows she heard him. He at that moment wishes he never said what he said, because now he is becoming attracted to her livliness of mind. I was not just the way she looked.
This is what I feel the movie is trying to convey. The book is another story.
Thanks Donna
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Posted by Ann on October 25, 1996 at 16:35:18:
: We are used to kids here assuming an American accent whenever they take on a persona - skits, drama, telling commercials etc.
: Hilary
___________________
That's hysterical. When I was in an Ibsen play it took me a
few days to stop falling into a British accent!
(Too much "Mystery" and "Masterpiece Theatre"!!)
Ann
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Posted by Brigid on October 25, 1996 at 16:36:49:
: : But, I can't figure out how he can get inside, out of the wet clothes, dried off and into others and out to the carriage in the time it takes Lizzy and the Gardiners to get to the carriage since they head for it immediately after the encounter.
: In the book, they walk around the estate for quite awhile before he meets them again.
: But it only takes a tiny bit to suspend my disbelief and relish these scenes again and again.
: Linda
___________________
I always assumed that he put the same clothes on because he did not have much time. Although I like the idea of him flying in the door, yelling for his man servant to help him dress quickly.
Brigid
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Posted by Anna-Karin Schander on October 25, 1996 at 16:45:16:
: : : : Days ago, someone suggested that Darcy would take his comfort with a married lady whose husband was neglectful. For me, this opened up new, and horrifying, perspectives on the importance of Mr. and Mrs. Hurst in the story.
: :
: : ___________________
: : Do be serious Grace, horror indeed ( but it would give another reason for the vicious behaviour of Mrs Hurst towards Lizzy...) No I won´t think of it...Thanks for one big laugh though!
: : Ann2
:
: ___________________
:
: I'm the one I think who thought that Darcy might be more inclined to married women of his own class than any of the other alternatives to sex outside of marriage. However, don't panic! I always thought that he is the soul of discretion and thus unlikely to do anything like that with the sister of a good friend, maybe the sister of a passing acquaintance, but not Bingley's. I don't think he likes either Bingley sister that much anyway.
: Rebecca
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I do not think he would involve himself with a married lady at all he seem to be mor moral thar most men of his class were and his horror over Wickham seem real (otherwhise he would have been a real hypcrite he has many faults but hardly that. Even if I think he maybe had some experience before Lizzy it would hardly be with a married lady or a open prostitute. Maybe with a widow or actress of some kind. At least he would never willingly compromise hurt or abandon a lady.or leaving one one the street.
a married lady never!!!!!
Anna-Karin
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Posted by hat on October 25, 1996 at 16:46:10:
Do you not think that Colin Firth & Elizabeth Ehle would have
: performed this scene nicely? Your thoughts?
: Jak
___________________
Yes, I would have liked to see this one too. It puzzles me because I think Lizzie mistakes his intentions - I don't think he was being mean to her like she assumes; but I can't see Darcy carrying it through if she had said yes, and kicking up his heels, in such an impromptu manner. I don't remember anyone else dancing at the time. Maybe it was momentary madness!
Hilary
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