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Posted by Jane on October 22, 1996 at 08:06:48:
: : : : Anne:
: : : : In the book this conversation seems to take place between just Lizzy and
: : : : Mr. B - but in the film version they are all together in the sitting
: : : : room and he makes sport of it as Jane sits there looking sad. I think
: : : : that it would have been better tete-a-tete as in the book.
: : : : Just a thought
: : : ___________________
: : : So glad you brought this up. I agree that it was better in the book, especially since
: : : it make Lizzie seem insensitive to Jane's unhappiness as well. Lizzie would not have
: : : wanted to discuss the topic in Jane's presence.
: : : kathleen
: :
: : ___________________
: : Yes, this has bothered me, as well - it's the only time that Mr. B. attempts to have fun at the expense of his two favorite daughters, and it seems out of character for both he and Lizzie.
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
: I thought I remember reading that it was written that Mr. B. was not always a gentleman. Maybe I am wrong.
: Donna
___________________
: Have you considered that he was trying to jolly Jane out of her low spirits? How could he possibly know how hurt Jane really was, since she is so discreet and modest in her behaviour? Darcy says he did not discern any signs of attachment to Bingley in her at the ball ( though of course he does not know her well ). Surely Jane can only have confided in Elizabeth at this stage and she could not have foreseen her father's attempts to cheer Jane up?
Posted by Cheryl on October 22, 1996 at 08:26:10:
: : I heard a rumor that someone was lobbying for a Mr. Collins stamp.
: : Is this true or a cruel joke?
:
: ___________________
:
: My question is, why Mr. Collins?
___________________
Let us pray that it is self-adhesive!
Cheryl
Posted by Cheryl on October 22, 1996 at 08:50:56:
: Once Mr. Collins gets Longbourn they will be far away from Lady C so Charlotte does have something to look forward to.
: Anne
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I had not thought of this before. When Mr. Collins inherits Longbourn, will he then retire from the clergy and become a gentleman? Or will he now have the clout to take over the living at Meryton and thus have two incomes?
Cheryl
Posted by Sylvia on October 22, 1996 at 09:33:52:
:
: : I think this Darcy's remark is cruel after Elizabeth mention her
: : sister Jane being heartbroken. This is one line I don't expect to
: : hear from him. Very insensitive indeed.
: ___________________
: I agree that the remark is cruel & insensitive. But, we must make some allowances
: for Darcy's feelings at this point. Elizabeth has just turned him down and he is hurt
: & humiliated. He probably wishes he had been able to persuade himself to give her
: up as easily as he persuaded Bingley. And I'm not sure he believes Jane was deeply
: wounded -- he may think she only wanted Bingley as a good match, not because
: she loved him (even though Elizabeth has implied it).
: I guess I'm saying that this comment was made in the heat of anger & mortification,
: and is not fully indicative of Darcy's true character.
: kathleen
But remember Col. Fitzwilliam was saying Darcy rejoice in his success in separating his friend from that match also. I just wish Jane A. did not write it that way. It is not gentlemanly to brag about such success even to a counsin
Follow Ups:
Posted by janice on October 22, 1996 at 09:51:42:
: I think this Darcy's remark is cruel after Elizabeth mention her
: sister Jane being heartbroken. This is one line I don't expect to
: hear from him. Very insensitive indeed.
___________________
------
It was cruel and insensitive indeed. I think it is the whole point of the P&P, that is, Darcy's affection and admiration towards Lizzy, changed his view and attitute at the end. Love conquers all, bravo!
Posted by Mary H on October 22, 1996 at 10:16:27:
: Does anyone know how Darcy's parents died? I believe that Darcy's mother died before his father (which was only a few years ago) but to me, Darcy's parents seemed very young to die so soon.
Remember that life expectancy was not as long in the early part of the 19th century as it is today. People died of the flu, or pneumonia or ailments that can be cured with antibiotics today. Also, nothing was known about causes or preventative measures for heart attacks and strokes. There were no low fat/low cholesterol diets (unless you were very poor!) no bypass surgery, no ballon angioplasties, etc., etc. Lady Darcy may have died in childbirth or from complications arising afterward.
We also don't know how old Mr. Darcy (the elder) was when he married.
Posted by Mary H on October 22, 1996 at 10:30:11:
: : Lately I've been troubled by Darcy's "scruples that had prevented me from forming any serious design." Aside from the obvious offensiveness, is he also saying that he had designs on Lizzy that were NOT serious, that he intended to flirt with her and sport with her affections as long as he pleased without any serious purpose?
:
Hmm, it's hard for me to see Darcy as a flirt. He seems much too serious for that. Of course, he does spar with Lizzy, and seems to enjoy that, but it is never with the idea of attracting her. Rather, he does it almost against his will. I think he is far too honorable to ever sport with a woman's affections.
Mary H
Posted by Mary H on October 22, 1996 at 11:16:58:
: : Can you tell me the title etc. of the Milne version?
: Hope you enjoyed it,
: Ann
Very much, thank you. By the way, is this *the* A.A. Milne who wrote Winnie the Pooh? (I'm sure this has been discussed before, but unfortunately, I don't always get through all the posts at my job. My boss has this peculiar idea that I should work at least some of the time.) :(
Mary H
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 22, 1996 at 11:22:52:
: : : Can you tell me the title etc. of the Milne version?
: : Hope you enjoyed it,
: : Ann
: Very much, thank you. By the way, is this *the* A.A. Milne who wrote Winnie the Pooh? (I'm sure this has been discussed before, but unfortunately, I don't always get through all the posts at my job. My boss has this peculiar idea that I should work at least some of the time.) :(
: Mary H
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I believe that it is *the* Milne.
Ann
Posted by Mary H on October 22, 1996 at 11:31:17:
I agree with Anne and Kali. Charlotte's situation is certainly not enviable, but I think she is mostly to be pitied for living in a time that allowed women no alternatives beyond marriage or spinsterhood. Look at the way Charlotte handles Mr. Collins and Lady C and think what a great HR manager she would have made.
Mary H
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on October 22, 1996 at 11:53:45:
: Once before someone mentioned the Mr. Bennet's discussion with Lizzy of Lady
: C's letter was very insensitive of him. That I could understand
: more than his saying:
: So, Lizzy, your sister is crossed in love I find. I congratulate her.
: Next to being married, a girl likes to be crossed in love a little now
: and then.
: In the book this conversation seems to take place between just Lizzy and
: Mr. B - but in the film version they are all together in the sitting
: room and he makes sport of it as Jane sits there looking sad. I think
: that it would have been better tete-a-tete as in the book.
: Just a thought
: Anne
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I have been thinking about this scene, I can't seem to find it on the video. Unless you mean the scene when he calls Lizzie into the library about Lady C. letter. I must have missed something.
Thanks Donna
Posted by Cheryl on October 22, 1996 at 11:58:57:
: Look at the way Charlotte handles Mr. Collins and Lady C and think what a great HR manager she would have made.
: Mary H
___________________
Mary, what is a "HR manager"?
Cheryl
Posted by eva on October 22, 1996 at 12:13:51:
: : : : : : Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Forster plays one of the Musgrove sisters in Persuasion?
: : : : :
: : : : : ___________________
: : : : : Until you mentioned it, I hadn't noticed. I believe she was Louisa.
: : : : : Ann
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : : She was Henrietta Musgrove. Just found out that Lucy Steele {I don't know her real name}is in Tweleth Night impersonating young man. Also with Helena Bonham Carter. Trevor Nunn is the director.
: : : : Ciao Donna
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Lucy Steele (Imogen Stubbs) was also the lead in A&E's
: : : "Anna Lee" mystery series.
: :
: : ___________________
: : She is on the left
: : Donna
:
: ___________________
:
Imogen Stubbs is married to Trevor Nunn too.
-eva
___________________
Posted by Bernie on October 22, 1996 at 12:18:31:
: ___________________
: Do you also get the impression that Charlotte, reading both Lizzie's feelings and her husband's desire to please Lady C by not leaving Lizzie out of the visit , deliberately mentions the time so that Mr. C stops hassling Lizzie to go. She knows perfectly well that the issue of his puntuality will put him in a spin, and them on their way, minus Lizzie. She is really very astute, in all except one (very far-reaching) issue.
: Hilary
___________________
Yes, I got the distinct impression from the film that Charlotte was really trying to get Mr. C out of Lizzie's hair. She herself offered to stay behind with Lizzy, partly because I feel, that Charlotte privately thinks that Lady C is an absolute despot. Thus, Charlotte will avail herself of any opportunity that arises which prevents her from spending time with Lady C. If she also avoids Mr. C's society, then so much the better! Oh yes, she is very astute in those respects.
Bernie
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Tommye on October 22, 1996 at 12:36:27:
: :
: : : I think this Darcy's remark is cruel after Elizabeth mention her
: : : sister Jane being heartbroken. This is one line I don't expect to
: : : hear from him. Very insensitive indeed.
: : ___________________
: : I agree that the remark is cruel & insensitive. But, we must make some allowances
: : for Darcy's feelings at this point. Elizabeth has just turned him down and he is hurt
: : & humiliated. He probably wishes he had been able to persuade himself to give her
: : up as easily as he persuaded Bingley. And I'm not sure he believes Jane was deeply
: : wounded -- he may think she only wanted Bingley as a good match, not because
: : she loved him (even though Elizabeth has implied it).
: : I guess I'm saying that this comment was made in the heat of anger & mortification,
: : and is not fully indicative of Darcy's true character.
: : kathleen
:
: But remember Col. Fitzwilliam was saying Darcy rejoice in his success in separating his friend from that match also. I just wish Jane A. did not write it that way. It is not gentlemanly to brag about such success even to a counsin
___________________
I think it showed the rather "clinical" way the elite of the time looked at marriage, women, etc. I recall, however, that he had stated that he saw nothing in Jane's demeanor (paraphrase) to make him think she had affection for Bingley. In the book, Austen makes clear that Lizzy fully understands how Darcy could have thought Jane unfeeling--Charlotte had mentioned quite a few times, Lizzy remembered, that Jane's expressions always appeared complacent. Darcy mistook this for aloofness or even lack of feeling for his friend.
Tommye
Posted by Amy on October 22, 1996 at 12:44:07:
: Yes, I got the distinct impression from the film that Charlotte was really trying to get Mr. C out of Lizzie's hair. ...
Charlotte will avail herself of any opportunity that arises which prevents her from spending time with Lady C. If she also avoids Mr. C's society, then so much the better! Oh yes, she is very astute in those respects.
___________________
No doubt she is shrewd and knows what she is about. I wonder if she is beginning to resort to Mr Bennet-like tactics to save her sanity -- getting his goat on purpose for sport.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Tommye on October 22, 1996 at 12:45:50:
:
: : : Elizabeth cannot believe that Charlotte would accept Mr. Collins' proposal. In fact she is quite rude to Charlotte when told about it. (Almost as rude as Lydia and Mrs. B are when Sir William announces it to the family.)
: : : Charlotte, on the other hand, is certain that Eliza would change her opinion of Mr. Darcy "if she could suppose him to be in her power."
: : : These are friends who do not know each other on this topic. In fact, Lizzie & Jane are better friends, as well as being loving sisters. (Which is why Lizzie turns to Jane after Charlotte has accepted Mr. C's proposal.)
: : : kathleen
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Charlotte is in a very different position than Lizzy or Jane. SHe is several years older, and much less inclined to marry for love (she admits that it is her nature, but it's hard not to suspect her situation, as well, as the reason). Elizabeth, assuming that Charlotte - as a close friend and ally - is of the same mind as she, probably forgets that Charlotte is not bound to the same standard of loyalty (if you want to call it that) and consistency as is a sister.
: : But while Lizzy may not completely understand Charlotte, it is possible that Charlotte understands Lizzy more than she does herself. After all, Lizzy's prejudice toward Darcy is rooted directly in his wounding of her pride. And it is her residual pride - and continuing prejudice - that precludes her from softening towards him more than she actually does. If she knew and acknowledged the true Darcy - and realized the full extent of his affections - it might have been much easier for her to love him. Instead, she accepts his original rebuff at face value and uses it against him for most of the rest of the story. As I stated back in one of those "Wickham" threads last week, it is much easier
___________________
HelP! What's going on??? I did not say the above (which I had previously read) and my actual response is not here! Oh, no! Woe is me! It was truly my most astute observation to date...
.And now, all is lost! I shall never see him again. (oops! Excuse me. I accidently transported back to the wrong scene.)
Tommye
Follow Ups:
Posted by Tommye on October 22, 1996 at 12:49:16:
: Tommye's reply to my Charlotte post has been doubled, and then gruesomely amputated. : {
: And, oh dear!, my reply to her has been replaced by a post from what seems to be a completely different thread! : {
: Amy, what ARE we do do? Or am I just hallucinating?
: - K ; )
___________________
You're right! My actual response in missing. The response for which I am given credit is not mine. And my most astute observation is lost.
Even when I responded today that the error had been made, that, too, has disappeared.
It's a plot.
Tommye
Posted by Amy on October 22, 1996 at 12:50:16:
Tommye,
Kali asked about this too. I can't think what might have caused it or how to retrieve the message. That particular ghost has never got into the machine.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on October 22, 1996 at 13:00:23:
Actually it turns out I do have a little time to try to hunt down the missing post. Can you give me a little clue as to what might have been in it? I am afraid I have not been following many of the threads for the past few days. Try to think of a distinctive word you might have used. Like capricious or turquoise or yuck.
Amy
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