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Posted by Marie on October 21, 1996 at 19:55:38:
: Just a thought, but is Darcy perhaps punning and referring to the hearing, not of her piano, but her voice/conversation when he says "No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you could think anything wanting."?
Interesting possibility. It would certainly make sense of the line. I like it. Yes, I like it very much.
___________________
Posted by hat on October 21, 1996 at 19:56:17:
: : I heard a rumor that someone was lobbying for a Mr. Collins stamp.
: : Is this true or a cruel joke?
:
: ___________________
:
: My question is, why Mr. Collins?
___________________
Indeed. It must be a cruel joke. But I'd lobby for a Darcy or a Darcy and Lizzie stamp. Now Grace.. Whoa... keep ourself in check here!
Hilary
Follow Ups:
Posted by Marie on October 21, 1996 at 20:09:14:
: I've always thought that Darcy meant that rather than spending all of her time practicing on the pianoforte, she has also cultivated her skills in conversation, makes time to improve her mind by reading, etc, and thus has spent her time well
I think you must be right about the above, but I suppose I am still not convinced about the rest, at least as far as the book goes. Your explanation makes perfect sense of the episode as it's portrayed in P&P2, but in the book I don't think Darcy ever is so overcome by her playing in and of itself--as opposed to his enjoyment of HER, the fair performer, playing--to lose his sense of judgment. And given his situation in life, he would have to be very familiar with expert playing, and be a good judge. Even in P&P2 he has the example of Mrs. Hurst, who, for all her faults, was proficient. Any further thoughts?
: -also (as discussed some weeks ago) he appears not to have a great deal of musical expertise; he detects no fault in her musical skills, and doesn't think she needs to spend more time practicing - he even recommends Lizzie's musical talents highly to his sister. (The earlier discussion was regarding the musical "errors" deliberately made by Davis, with experienced musicians feeling that they were so obvious as to appear phony, while those less expert were not even aware of what mistakes were made.)
: Joan, too
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 21, 1996 at 20:10:27:
: -Arnessa.
: Lately I've been troubled by Darcy's "scruples that had prevented me from forming any serious design." Aside from the obvious offensiveness, is he also saying that he had designs on Lizzy that were NOT serious, that he intended to flirt with her and sport with her affections as long as he pleased without any serious purpose?
___________________
I don't think he's saying that - I think he's referring to his own ongoing struggle against the temptation to formally court her vs his "rational" knowledge that this she not an appropriate match for a person of his social position. It accounts for his ambiguous behavior, seemingly taking one step forward, then two steps back. On several occasions he actually says things that "give away" how much she must have been on his mind, and on each of these occasions, immediately afterward he shuts down and becomes coldly impersonal again. As you say, Darcy is a very duty-bound person, and he does not wish to do anything that is in conflict with wha he perceives as his duty, even if he wants it as he has never wanted anything else in his privileged life. He is having a major approach/avoidance conflict.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Karen on October 21, 1996 at 20:26:24:
:
: : I think it is Darcy who is wrestling with the idea of his own marriage at this point in time. Here he is paying a courtesy visit upon his aunt, knowing well that she wants him for a son-in-law, and now here he finds Lizzie as well, whom he is struggling constantly to resist "forming a serious design" upon. In this situation, he is almost forced to be continually thinking of his marriage!
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
: Lately I've been troubled by Darcy's "scruples that had prevented me from forming any serious design." Aside from the obvious offensiveness, is he also saying that he had designs on Lizzy that were NOT serious, that he intended to flirt with her and sport with her affections as long as he pleased without any serious purpose? I hope not. I don't think I could like a Darcy who would try to give any woman an idea he felt more than he did. Of course, in the end, he wouldn't be able to pull it off, because Darcy is a very duty-bound person. And I think if he led any woman to expect a proposal, he probably wouldn't have the heart to disappoint her even if his affections and wishes had changed. Still, when I hear him talk of "serious designs," I'm led to think of the odious Wickham. I mean, what other kind of designs could he have had on our dear Lizzy?
: -Arnessa.
___________________
I am going to attempt to allay Arnessa's fears that Darcy wasn't being a cad. Now back at Netherfield before Elizabeth and Darcy have the famous exchange (when she says, "And your defect is a propensity to hate everybody." "And yours," he replied, with a smile, "is to wilfully to misunderstand them.")Darcy realized he had 'never been so bewitched by any woman as he was by her. He really believed, that were it not for the inferiority of her connections, he should be in some danger.' So before he left Netherfield, he is in love (or at least on his way to being in love) with Lizzy. From the text, I believe the 'scruples' are simply the inferiority of her connections. Also if Darcy would flirt (with or without intention) I think that Jane Austen would have indicated it and Miss Bingley would surely have let us know. I hope this helps you think better of Darcy. True he had to be humbled about his thinking of others as inferior but he repented and proved himself worthy.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on October 21, 1996 at 20:32:38:
Tommye's reply to my Charlotte post has been doubled, and then gruesomely amputated. : {
And, oh dear!, my reply to her has been replaced by a post from what seems to be a completely different thread! : {
Amy, what ARE we do do? Or am I just hallucinating?
- K ; )
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 21, 1996 at 20:34:28:
: Can you tell me the title etc. of the Milne version? From this snippet it sounds interesting. I know it was discussed earlier, but I missed it for some reason, so sorry to backtrack.
: Hilary
He published "Miss Elizabeth Bennet" in 1936 as a stage play.
He meant for it to be produced on the London stage, but an
American version of P&P got the jump on his production. I
don't know whether it has ever appeared theatrically. It
obviously is a highly condensed version, with only eleven
scenes, but some of the parts are very pretty, and I like it
quite well (as far as adaptations go).
Here are two of the scenes I typed out before, both take place
at the second (Netherfield) ball:
.......
Bingley is stretched out on a chair, Darcy standing over him:
Darcy-
Well, Charles?
Bingley (uneasily)-
How do you mean--well? You stand over me like a father, a governess and a guardian angel rolled into one, and say "Well?" I don't like you. Go away.
Darcy-
If I consulted my own feelings--
Bingley-
You would go away. I know. You hate dancing. You have told me so. I hate a man who comes to a ball, and then tells everybody how much more rational it would be if conversation and not dancing were the order of the day.
Darcy-
Well, so it would be.
Bingley-
Much more rational, but not near so much like a ball. As for me, I like dancing, I like my company--except just at the moment--and I propose to go on enjoying myself.
Darcy (smiling)-
And all this because I said, "Well, Charles?"
Bingley (awkwardly, after a silence).
Well, Darcy?
Darcy-
Nothing. Go on enjoying yourself. Go on--amusing yourself. But do not--commit yourself.
Bingley (earnestly)-
I love her, Darcy, upon my soul I do. She is the loveliest creature I ever set eyes upon. She is good, she is amiable, she is clever--by which I mean clever enough for me--and, in short, she has everything which I should want a young woman to have.
Darcy-
Including a mother.
Bingley-
I cannot spend my life looking only at orphans. It is true she has a mother, but I do not blame her for it. In my fair-minded way I have always refused to blame you for your aunt.
Darcy (a little haughtily)-
Have you anything against Lady Catherine?
Bingley-
Nothing, except that I find her intolerable.
Darcy-
Is that all? Almost everybody is intolerable at one time or another. If you prefer it so, I will promise that you shall never see my aunt again. Can Miss Bennet promise you that you will never see her mother again?
Bingley-
What's the matter with her mother?
Darcy-
Oh, Charles!
Bingley-
I am not asking her to live with me.
Darcy-
You do not need to. She has already invited herself.
Bingley-
Come, Darcy, you have no right to say that.
Darcy-
Every right. She was telling me herself just now.
Bingley-
That she was going to live with me?
Darcy-
In so many words. You do not know perhaps that Longbourn is entailed away from the daughters, so that when Mr. Bennet dies Mrs. Bennet and her family must find some new home--as, for instance, Netherfield.
Bingley-
How do you know all these things?
Darcy-
People confide in me, Charles.
Bingley (examining him carefully)-
There must be something I have overlooked in your manner which endears you to them. It seems odd.
Darcy-
It is merely a local form of soliloquy such as one could make to the roof of a theatre without finding it particularly endearing. The whole neighborhood suffers from it. I can tell you, for instance, that Mr. Collins--you know Mr. Collins?
Bingley-
Mr. Collins!
Darcy-
Is Miss Bennet's cousin, is next in the entail, and is come to Longbourn in order to marry her.
Bingley-
That fellow marry her?
Darcy-
It is his design.
Bingley-
But not hers.
Darcy-
Her mother's: to marry her to you or to him or to another, provided she marries somebody who can support them all.
Bingley-
I will not believe it of her. She never could marry that parson fellow. Nobody could marry that parson fellow. If her mother is going to force her into the marriage, then it is my duty to save her from it. (Pleased with this idea.) There, Darcy. You are all for duty. So am I. We will save Miss Bennet.
Darcy-
You have a duty to yourself also; to your sister; to your friends. Charles, Charles, you cannot marry into this family. I say nothing of that inferiority of position, the tradesman uncle, the attorney, the whole social background of Miss Bennet's connections; and now this parson fellow; but you must have seen for yourself the total want of propriety so uniformly betrayed by the mother and the three younger sisters. How can you live with that?
Bingley-
And what of my own propriety, if I draw back now? Except for the actual words, I have as good as offered myself to Miss Bennet, and I swear to you, Darcy, as good as been accepted.
Darcy-
No, no, that is where you are wrong. I have watched her with you: her look, her manners, her open, cheerful behavior, placid, unruffled, just as it has been in the company of any other man. That is not love, Charles, I pledge you my word.
Bingley (after a depressed silence)-
It is true I know no reason why she should love me. I am a very ordinary fellow, not brilliant like you. I have a deal to say, none of it very clever; but cheerful, and it makes a noise, and I think how well we are getting on together; and all the time I am but getting on well with myself, and she is looking on kindly and smiling sweetly and thinking perhaps of some other man....What do you want me to do?
Darcy-
Come to London with me to-morrow--
Bingley-
I was coming. I told her.
Darcy-
And stay with me--
Bingley-
Three short days, I said. We had a joke about that....I mean, I had a joke.
Darcy-
Stay with me until--
Bingley-
Until she has married this parson fellow or somebody. Somebody who hasn't got a friend to stand over him, and--no, I didn't mean that. You're a good friend, Darcy, and I expect you're right. (Explosively) But damme, it isn't friendly to be always right.
.....
Elizabeth and Darcy are on the sofa together.
Elizabeth-
Now it is your turn to say something, Mr. Darcy. I talked about the dance, and you ought to make some kind of remark about the size of the room or the number of couples.
Darcy (smiling)-
Whatever you wish me to say shall be said.
Elizabeth-
Very well, that will do for the present. Perhaps by and by I may observe that private dances are pleasanter than public ones; but now we may be silent for a little.
Darcy-
Do you talk by rule, then, when you are dancing?
Elizabeth-
Sometimes. One must talk a little, you know; it would look odd to be entirely silent for half an hour together. An yet, for the advantage of some, conversation ought to be arranged so that they may have as little trouble as possible.
Darcy-
Are you consulting your own feelings in the present case, or gratifying mine?
Elizabeth (solemnly)-
Both. For I have always seen a great similarity in the turn of our minds. We are each of an unsocial, taciturn disposition, unwilling to speak until we can say something that will amaze the whole room, and be handed down to posterity as a proverb.
Darcy-
That is no very striking resemblance of your own character. How near it may be to mine I cannot say. You think it a faithful portrait undoubtedly.
Elizabeth-
No, no, I must not decide on my own performance.
Darcy-
Nor I on my own picture. So if I am to praise your skill as a painter, you must exercise it on someone else. Let us say Mr. Bingley. Give me Bingley in a line.
Elizabeth (after a pause)-
It would be a great responsibility to be married to him.
Darcy-
To be married to anybody is, I should suppose, a responsibility.
Elizabeth-
But one which falls to the husband as a rule.
Darcy-
Yes, you seem to have studied his character sufficiently well.
Elizabeth-
Is there anything else one half so amusing as studying other people?
Darcy-
The country, I imaging, supplies few subjects worthy of your talent. In the country you move in a very confined and unvarying society.
Elizabeth-
Yes, but people themselves alter so much that there is something new to be observed in them for ever.
Darcy-
Let us hope, then, that you have a long life in front of you, for it certainly seems as if it will be an amusing one. Will your husband also alter from day to day, or will he be the one constant in your ever-changing world?
Elizabeth-
Constant in affection, I hope; but equally I hope that each day will reveal some new attribute in him to deepen my affection.
Darcy-
And to serve you as a source of amusement?
Elizabeth-
If he loves me, he will not mind my laughing him occasionally.
Darcy-
The wisest and best of men--nay, the wisest and best of their actions--may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object is a joke.
Elizabeth-
Certainly there are such people, but I hope I am not one of them. I hope I never ridicule what is wise and good. Follies and nonsense, whims and inconsistencies, do divert me, I own, and I laugh at them whenever I can. Have you none of them yourself?
Darcy-
It has been the study of my life to avoid those weaknesses which expose one to ridicule.
Elizabeth-
Such as vanity and pride?
Darcy-
Vanity is a weakness indeed, but pride--where there is a real superiority of mind, pride will be always under good regulation.
Elizabeth-
If pride is a virtue, then I must acquit you of every fault.
Darcy-
I have faults enough. My temper is too little yielding, I cannot forget the follies and vices of others as soon as I ought. My good opinion once lost is lost forever.
Elizabeth-
That is a failing indeed. Implacable resentment is a shade in a character. But you have chosen your fault well--I cannot laugh at it. You are safe from me. I cannot laugh at a man whose habit is to hate everybody.
Darcy-
And yours to misunderstand them willfully.
Elizabeth-
I wouldn't do that; indeed, I would not. (After a pause.) You say that your good opinion once lost is lost forever. You are very cautious before you let it be forfeited?
Darcy-
I am.
Elizabeth-
And never allow yourself to be blinded by prejudice?
Darcy-
I hope not.
Elizabeth-
Those who never change their opinion ought to be secure of judging properly first.
Darcy-
Are you at work on my character again?
Elizabeth (shaking her head)-
I do not get on with it at all. I hear such different accounts of you as puzzle me exceedingly.
Darcy-
That may well be. And I would beg you therefore to put my portrait by; for there is reason to fear that, at the moment, the picture would reflect no credit on either of us.
Elizabeth (boldly)-
You refer to Mr. Wickham, do you not?
Darcy-
Only in as far as you were referring to Mr. Wickham.
Elizabeth-
We have all found him very charming.
Darcy-
So I supposed. Mr. Wickham is blessed with such happy manners as must ensure his making friends. Whether he be equally capable of retaining them is less certain.
Elizabeth (warmly)-
He has been so unlucky as to lose your friendship in a manner which he is likely to suffer from all his life.
Darcy-
He seems to have gained yours in its place, which should be compensation enough for any man.
Elizabeth-
Oh, you are hateful!
Darcy-
I mean it sincerely. For the first time in my life I envy him.
Elizabeth-
Can you defend your conduct to him?
Darcy (haughtily)-
To my friends, yes; but they do not require it of me. (He stands and offers her his arm)
(end)
Hope you enjoyed it,
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 21, 1996 at 20:52:16:
: Marie:
: Your explanation makes perfect sense of the episode as it's portrayed in P&P2, but in the book I don't think Darcy ever is so overcome by her playing in and of itself--as opposed to his enjoyment of HER, the fair performer, playing--to lose his sense of judgment. And given his situation in life, he would have to be very familiar with expert playing, and be a good judge. Even in P&P2 he has the example of Mrs. Hurst, who, for all her faults, was proficient.
Well, of course, it's very true that listening to Lizzie play gives him a "legitimate" reason to watch and enjoy her. But it's still possible for someone in his situation in life to have a tin ear. ;-) And Bingley's sisters, of course had the advantage of being taught by an excellent music master from London; they are both very proficient. (In fact, they seem to be most proficient at all those little surface things having little relationship to one's true character.)
: Any further thoughts?
Yes - but now we are approaching a topic that I had thought better of trying to bring up this early in the R&R - but now am thinking better of my thinking better. The other thing that Davies is doing with this "music" scene is setting us up for "the" Pemberley music scene - the majority of which is quite different from the book.
"Music appreciation" is the device that he employed to telescope the sequence of being introduced to Georgiana and the extra couple of days of courtesy visits exchanged between Lambton and Pemberley into one summary evening - and this may be one of the rare occasions on which the way that the Davies did it may actually have been even better than the way that Jane Austen did it. [I know - blasphemy! grin ] It certainly was more effective on film than a faithful re-creation of JA's text would have been at that point in the drama. But thinking about this may make us jump too far ahead of the R&R...
Joan, too
Posted by Grace on October 21, 1996 at 20:58:49:
: : : I heard a rumor that someone was lobbying for a Mr. Collins stamp.
: : : Is this true or a cruel joke?
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : My question is, why Mr. Collins?
:
: ___________________
: Indeed. It must be a cruel joke. But I'd lobby for a Darcy or a Darcy and Lizzie stamp. Now Grace.. Whoa... keep ourself in check here!
: Hilary
___________________
: Why Hilary, I very much resent your implication that I, of all people, would make light of such a serious and reasonable suggestion as a Lizzy, Collins or...(SIGH!) Darcy postage stamp! Be assured, however, that your gentle reproof has been taken to heart and I will spare you a lengthy discourse on the merits of this philatelic topic. Though I will not give a loose to MY fancy, I do advise others to INDULGE YOUR IMAGINATION IN EVERY POSSIBLE FLIGHT WHICH THE SUBJECT WILL AFFORD.
Your humble servant, Grace
Posted by Joan, too on October 21, 1996 at 21:10:58:
: Karen:
: Darcy realized he had 'never been so bewitched by any woman as he was by her. He really believed, that were it not for the inferiority of her connections, he should be in some danger.' So before he left Netherfield, he is in love (or at least on his way to being in love) with Lizzy.
Yes indeed! Hopping back to Chapter 12, when It is determined that Jane is well enough to return home from Netherfield, JA tells us:
To Mr Darcy it was welcome intelligence - Elizabeth had been at Netherfield long enough. She attracted him more than he liked - and Miss Bingley was uncivil to her, and more teasing than usual to himself. He wisely resolved to be particularly careful that no sign of admiration should now escape him, nothing that could elevate her with the hope of influencing his felicity; sensiible that if such an idea had been suggested, his behaviour during the last day must have material weight in confirming, or crushing it. Steady to his word, he scarcely spoke ten words to her through the whole of Saturday, and though they were at one time left by themselves for half an hour, he adhered most conscientiously to his book, and would not even look at her.
Posted by Ann on October 21, 1996 at 21:24:20:
: Do you guys think that Darcy may have been fed up with both ends of the political game (hypocrites all!) and so decided to sit politics out for the most part? Since the man is not easily impressed, and becuase I'm sure he has many obnoxious relatives who love politics (perhaps Lady Catherine?), it would seem to me that he'd get sick of the scene rather quickly.
: - K
___________________
There are many people who view participation in politics,
from casting ballots in all elections, to attending
conventions, supporting their candidates, and writing their
representitives, not as a game, but as a civic duty!
Politics, government and democracy deeply depend on the
level of participation of the body politic. If individuals
do not participate, by keeping themselves fully informed, by
thinking in depth about the issues, by making reasoned and
seasoned judgements about the various political positions
and voting accordingly, democracy and government is naturally
weakened.
I would argue that democracies get the government and politics
they deserve. With paltry numbers showing up at the polls
(in the US), and far-far fewer actively involved in the
process and voicing their opinions, how can we possibly have
a strong or even adequate democracy?
To quote Lincoln our government is "of the people [and] by
the people". We are the government; in a democracy
we are--each of us--responsible for the politics of
the nation. If we are dissatisfied, it is our responsibility
to do something about it by becoming more involved--not
less!
Granted things were much different in Regency England, but I
would think Darcy would see participation as a duty. I
think your reference to "both ends of the political game" is
a very contemporary sentiment, which may not--or may--be
applicable to early 19th Century England,which was still
evolving its constitutional monarchy.
Sorry for the rant, but this is something I feel very strongly
about.
Vote on November 5!
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on October 21, 1996 at 22:22:45:
: :
: : Marie - I was just re-reading this (in the book) as I found that part of the conversation confusing too. (Paraphrasing) He says he doesn't converse easily with strangers. She says that she doesn't play as well as she'd like but that it was her fault for not practicing enough. And then he says:
: : You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better. No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you can think anything wanting.
: : If she didn't practice enough, then how did she employ her time that would have others think nothing wanting?
: : I too am confused --
: : Anne
: ___________________
: Yes, that's the whole of the conversation I was referring to. I'd forgotten the last sentence, which was the very part that makes the whole thing so confusing. I'm sure Darcy found listening to Lizzie play one of his chief delights, but I'm also sure that he was also a good enough judge and sufficiently objective to realize that her playing was not superb. (Just as I may find more pleasure gazing at my husband than at ______, but that doesn't mean that I think he is actually better looking than _____.) So what does he mean? Maybe I should read the rest of the responses.
___________________
I think that what he is trying to say is. You are right I should practice trying to talk to strangers. Yes, You have employed your time much better than I have. You talk to strangers and are friendly. I would not think of practicing such a thing. I think you play very well anyway no matter what you think. She doesn't try to impress people or put on airs. She is herself Lizzie.
cioa Donna
Posted by Ann2 on October 22, 1996 at 00:52:31:
: Can't help with the poultry but as for
:
: : And when Darcy says that he would be happy to provide Mr Gardiner
: : with broads? and tackle -
: ___________________
: That would be rods and tackle. Rods meaning fishing poles.
: Did they have reels then, I wonder? It would seem they would though maybe not with ball bearings?
: Amy
___________________
Thanks for rods, I sure am enlargening my vocabulary. As for paltry that was in my dictionary, but I just thought it might amuse someone.
Ann2
Posted by Ann2 on October 22, 1996 at 01:38:22:
: :
: : : :
: : : : The other meeting in the garden that I liked but didn't make it into the film, was the one at Netherfield where the Bingly sisters try to snub Lizzie by squashing her off the path. They try to include Darcy in the snub, he tries to correct it, but Lizzie skips away from them all.
: : : : Hilary
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Yes , I have read about the symbolic meaning of the road not beeing wide enough to give room for Lizzy and she leaves them. And at Pemberley in the book, where Darcy approaches them for the second time she has recently crossed a bridge and then they are able to meet and walk side by side. Donīt remember the datails.
: : : Ann2
:
: Yes, I've read the first of those. Have you read the stuff about the symbolizm of Pemberly too? Pemberly being the symbol of the correct outlook on life, way of living, relationship with your community, and managing your estates well (hence all the good fruits at Darcy's table). And Darcy as a kind of personification of all this?
: Hilary
: : ___________________
: .
:I do not recognize it, sounds interesting though. I have seen something about Lizzy being the symbole for change and
a questioning attitude to life and Darcy as a representant of the existing society that was not easily moved(SO sorry I know one word for this in Swedish but have to talk a lot to make my meaning (at least I hope I do). The time for all this is after all The revolution in France and how consciously did Jane Austen use this theme?! Oh how much we have still to explore! Is it not wonderful? The way it opens up everywhere to thoughts big and small. And that we allow ourselves to dwell on them all. Praised be this board!
Ann2 I enjoy your company too Hilary
: Enjoyed all your comments Ann2 and Donna, thanks.
: Hilary.
___________________
Posted by Kali on October 22, 1996 at 03:27:18:
: : Do you guys think that Darcy may have been fed up with both ends of the political game (hypocrites all!) and so decided to sit politics out for the most part? Since the man is not easily impressed, and becuase I'm sure he has many obnoxious relatives who love politics (perhaps Lady Catherine?), it would seem to me that he'd get sick of the scene rather quickly.
: : - K
:
: ___________________
: There are many people who view participation in politics,
: from casting ballots in all elections, to attending
: conventions, supporting their candidates, and writing their
: representitives, not as a game, but as a civic duty!
: Politics, government and democracy deeply depend on the
: level of participation of the body politic. If individuals
: do not participate, by keeping themselves fully informed, by
: thinking in depth about the issues, by making reasoned and
: seasoned judgements about the various political positions
: and voting accordingly, democracy and government is naturally
: weakened.
: I would argue that democracies get the government and politics
: they deserve. With paltry numbers showing up at the polls
: (in the US), and far-far fewer actively involved in the
: process and voicing their opinions, how can we possibly have
: a strong or even adequate democracy?
: To quote Lincoln our government is "of the people [and] by
: the people". We are the government; in a democracy
: we are--each of us--responsible for the politics of
: the nation. If we are dissatisfied, it is our responsibility
: to do something about it by becoming more involved--not
: less!
: Granted things were much different in Regency England, but I
: would think Darcy would see participation as a duty. I
: think your reference to "both ends of the political game" is
: a very contemporary sentiment, which may not--or may--be
: applicable to early 19th Century England,which was still
: evolving its constitutional monarchy.
: Sorry for the rant, but this is something I feel very strongly
: about.
: Vote on November 5!
: Ann
___________________
Ann, you don't need to worry about me. ; ) i'm a poli sci major who votes absentee every election because I can't get home. I'm a perpetual campaign volunteer, and I have worked on Capitol Hill. I agree with you wholeheartedly that voting and caring about the state of our democracy is important. I don't look down on politicians or lobbyists or contributors to hefty PAC's, either. HOWEVER, I am still of the mind that Mr. Darcy, had he chosen to participate in politics, would have done so out of duty (as you say) or pragmatism and NOT becuase he enjoyed brownnosing and making deals with people he probably would have had little respect for (Heck, you can count the people he really loves on ten fingers as it is!). My parenthetical about hypocrites was meant to convey a sentiment that could fit Darcy's personality...and as far as politics being a game - if the COngressional leadership counts votes like touchdown points, why can't we? ; )
Your friend,
K
Posted by Sylvia on October 22, 1996 at 03:45:23:
I think this Darcy's remark is cruel after Elizabeth mention her
sister Jane being heartbroken. This is one line I don't expect to
hear from him. Very insensitive indeed.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on October 22, 1996 at 06:12:47:
Joan, too said:
: : I've always thought that Darcy meant that rather than spending all of her time practicing on the pianoforte, she has also cultivated her skills in conversation, makes time to improve her mind by reading, etc, and thus has spent her time well -
: ___________________
Eric said:
Mr. Darcy is played deeply and ambiguously and it is rare for his words to have but one meaning.
___________________
Isn't that the truth, Eric? This scene has so many levels to consider. I like Joan's take on it -- that Darcy approves of the way she chooses to spend her time. And what that means is "I like your values." It harkens back to the Netherfield conversation about what constitutes an accomplished young lady.
Lizzy, I believe has challenged his whole concept of what he wants in a woman. He is completely discombobulated. He used to think country manners rough. Now he sees a lady who is pleasing to him as she can be because she is not the product of the fashionable world.
She has changed his world view.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by kathleen on October 22, 1996 at 06:19:33:
: I think this Darcy's remark is cruel after Elizabeth mention her
: sister Jane being heartbroken. This is one line I don't expect to
: hear from him. Very insensitive indeed.
___________________
I agree that the remark is cruel & insensitive. But, we must make some allowances
for Darcy's feelings at this point. Elizabeth has just turned him down and he is hurt
& humiliated. He probably wishes he had been able to persuade himself to give her
up as easily as he persuaded Bingley. And I'm not sure he believes Jane was deeply
wounded -- he may think she only wanted Bingley as a good match, not because
she loved him (even though Elizabeth has implied it).
I guess I'm saying that this comment was made in the heat of anger & mortification,
and is not fully indicative of Darcy's true character.
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on October 22, 1996 at 06:42:05:
Here, Henry. I will save you the trouble of copyediting my art. But. One should quote accurately if one quotes.
There are other things wanting in my graphic. But you know what? It rather proves my point. It's kind of like Lizzy's playing. I like decorating my messages once in a while for the pleasure it gives me to play with colors and to give you all some added value you could not get in an email discussion group.
But I have a rule for myself. I will not spend more than 10 minutes on such a picture. So you see the bubble not completely filled in, the type not balanced within the bubble. JA would approve that I choose to cut short the time I spent on it --- don't you think? I shall now employ my time better by taking a short walk before my children wake up.
Amy
Posted by Ann2 on October 22, 1996 at 07:39:07:
: : The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers."
: : Joan, too
: I have always seen the comment "We neither of us perform for
: strangers," as the flip side of Lizzy's comment "We are each
: of an unsocial, taciturn disposition, unwilling to speak,
: unless we expect to day something that will amaze the whole
: room..." Both statements are half true, and half false. The
: speaker in each is fully aware that they are only half true.
:
: I think in making his comment Darcy is attempting to play at
: her game: "I have had the pleasure of your aquaintance long
: enough to know that you find great enjoyment in occasionally
: professing opinions which in fact are not your own." He is
: trying to rise to the same level of playfulness that she
: displays; however, he is inexperienced at joking in this
: manner, and what he says ends up coming out a bit awkwardly.
: Ann
___________________
OOH, what a touching image. I
like it very well!
Ann2
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