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Posted by Laura M on October 21, 1996 at 10:50:38:
Hi all, I read the book (great book!!!) and Ralph Fiennes plays the English Patient. The book is pretty allegorical to England and WWII. Colin Firth play Geoffrey Clifton and Kristin Scott Thomas plays his wife who has an affair with the Ralph Fiennes character. She is not a nice person in this movie and Colin Firth's role is essential to the plot of things, its small but crucial. My favorite character was the Indian Kip who was a sapper--dimantled bombs). I hope the movie is just as good as the book, but the book was unique in itself. Hope this has helped everyone. Laura
Posted by Bernie on October 21, 1996 at 12:10:20:
: : Do you go through all the comments, etc.,
: It depends on the amount of traffic. When the main ppbb.html page gets too long I have to take messages out and will lop off the the oldest messages by date. So it depends. If there is a lot of traffic you will only see 3-4 days worth of messages up. Used to be more like 10 days.
: I am always happy to send a regular find an old post or group of posts, or provide a vacation pack as for Anne.
: ::Can you really keep creeping critics out??
: So far it has been managable. There are options. Password access, newsgroup, email. I'd love to be able to keep it on the web for everybody, though.
Keep up the good work. It would be a shame if you'd have to resort to password accessetc.. I must admit that I was a lurker for a couple of weeks wondering whether to join in or not, and one of the most positive attributes of this BB is the fact that you are free to express your opinions with the knowledge that you wouldn't be toasted alive the instant your opinions didn't agree with the majority. I think that the P&P2 BB's are amongst the most civil on the Internet. So let's just forget the nasty "trollers" and "flamers" and get back to discussing P&P2, which is why we are all here i the first place!!
Long live THE P&P2 BB!
Posted by Katherine on October 21, 1996 at 12:25:38:
: Hi all, I read the book (great book!!!) and Ralph Fiennes plays the English Patient. The book is pretty allegorical to England and WWII. Colin Firth play Geoffrey Clifton and Kristin Scott Thomas plays his wife who has an affair with the Ralph Fiennes character. She is not a nice person in this movie and Colin Firth's role is essential to the plot of things, its small but crucial. My favorite character was the Indian Kip who was a sapper--dimantled bombs). I hope the movie is just as good as the book, but the book was unique in itself. Hope this has helped everyone. Laura
I agree it was a great book. It has so many layers to it that I was often bewildered by it but the beauty of the language was so powerful and the story of the four main characters so gripping that I had to make it to the end. I too liked the character of Kip a great deal, especially the final paragraphs of the story. I wish that I had a background in history, literature, and art to be able to understand all the references and complexities of this novel. At times I was mesmerizied by the writing and at other times I wanted to throw the whole thing out the window. I can't imagine how they are going to make it into a movie. I guess they will just concentrate on the mystery of who the Patient is and the "love" stories involved. I thought they had to cut a lot to make Emma into a movie, they are going to have to lose 90% of this book for this one! Colin F. will have a very small role. His character has 3 attributes the story needs, a wife, a plane and a secret.
Posted by Kali on October 21, 1996 at 12:29:43:
: I heard a rumor that someone was lobbying for a Mr. Collins stamp.
: Is this true or a cruel joke?
My question is, why Mr. Collins?
Posted by Katherine on October 21, 1996 at 12:37:11:
: : Hi all, I read the book (great book!!!) and Ralph Fiennes plays the English Patient. The book is pretty allegorical to England and WWII. . Laura
: I agree it was a great book. Katherine
There is on-line info about the movie, At the Internet Database us.imdb.com
and at www.alliance.ca/theatre/movies/english.html
Posted by Carol on October 21, 1996 at 13:17:13:
Hello?? Was that a joke, Colin answering you? I can't access the comment by the "Colin" person, nor the follow up by "Shocked." The suspense is too much! What were those comments????
Posted by Eric on October 21, 1996 at 13:44:56:
: : : : I find it interesting that before almost every meeting which tends to revise Lizzie's opinion of Darcy, or vice versa, Darcy is washing - at least, in P&P2. I do not, I confess, know if this is the case in the book.
: : : : There is one instance where this is not the case - the Lucas party at which he decides she has fine eyes and is more than merely tolerable.
: : : : But before he sees her playing with the dog, he's bathing. Before he hands her the letter, he's washing up. Before he meets her in the garden at Pemberly, he's swimming. The first one is where his own prejudice cracks. The second two signify the cracking of her prejudice, and the time when she suddenly, she desires his good opinion.
: : : : Why should these events be connected with water?
: : :
: : : Inadequate 19th-century English plumbing precludes a brisk cold shower.
: : ___________________
: : Perhaps, though Mr. Darcy could well afford servants who would be willing enough to dump cold water over him.
: Yup, I would be one of them! :)
Posted by Eric on October 21, 1996 at 14:10:13:
: : Anne:
: : Marie - I was just re-reading this (in the book) as I found that part of the conversation confusing too. (Paraphrasing) He says he doesn't converse easily with strangers. She says that she doesn't play as well as she'd like but that it was her fault for not practicing enough. And then he says: You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better. No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you can think anything wanting. If she didn't practice enough, then how did she employ her time that would have others think nothing wanting? I too am confused --
: I've always thought that Darcy meant that rather than spending all of her time practicing on the pianoforte, she has also cultivated her skills in conversation, makes time to improve her mind by reading, etc, and thus has spent her time well - also (as discussed some weeks ago) he appears not to have a great deal of musical expertise; he detects no fault in her musical skills, and doesn't think she needs to spend more time practicing - he even recommends Lizzie's musical talents highly to his sister. (The earlier discussion was regarding the musical "errors" deliberately made by Davis, with experienced musicians feeling that they were so obvious as to appear phony, while those less expert were not even aware of what mistakes were made.)
: Joan, too
Just a thought, but is Darcy perhaps punning and referring to the hearing, not of her piano, but her voice/conversation when he says "No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you could think anything wanting."?
And is it also not possible that, when he says "neither of us perform to strangers." he is equating her "I do not play this piano as well as I should wish to..." with his own "I lack that talent which some possess for conversing easily with strangers..."? Each lacks a talent, each lacks that talent because they do not practice, and each does not practice because they find other things to be of a higher priority without regard to the opinions of strangers. Mr. Darcy is played deeply and ambiguously and it is rare for his words to have but one meaning.
Posted by Kali on October 21, 1996 at 15:17:53:
: As parties of noblesse oblige, there was some question as to who they were obliged to. Some noblesse thought it was to other noblesses. Others thought it to the poor down-trodden masses who were not as smart as we are (M'Lady DeBurgh was of this sort). Both were for a stratified society in which it was clear who was and who was not noblesse, however.
Do you guys think that Darcy may have been fed up with both ends of the political game (hypocrites all!) and so decided to sit politics out for the most part? Since the man is not easily impressed, and becuase I'm sure he has many obnoxious relatives who love politics (perhaps Lady Catherine?), it would seem to me that he'd get sick of the scene rather quickly.
Posted by Kali on October 21, 1996 at 15:32:42:
: What a contrast Mr C is when compared with noble Darcy.
Posted by Tommye on October 21, 1996 at 17:37:20:
: : Elizabeth cannot believe that Charlotte would accept Mr. Collins' proposal. In fact she is quite rude to Charlotte when told about it. (Almost as rude as Lydia and Mrs. B are when Sir William announces it to the family.)
: : Charlotte, on the other hand, is certain that Eliza would change her opinion of Mr. Darcy "if she could suppose him to be in her power."
: : These are friends who do not know each other on this topic. In fact, Lizzie & Jane are better friends, as well as being loving sisters. (Which is why Lizzie turns to Jane after Charlotte has accepted Mr. C's proposal.)
: : kathleen
: Charlotte is in a very different position than Lizzy or Jane. SHe is several years older, and much less inclined to marry for love (she admits that it is her nature, but it's hard not to suspect her situation, as well, as the reason). Elizabeth, assuming that Charlotte - as a close friend and ally - is of the same mind as she, probably forgets that Charlotte is not bound to the same standard of loyalty (if you want to call it that) and consistency as is a sister.
: But while Lizzy may not completely understand Charlotte, it is possible that Charlotte understands Lizzy more than she does herself. After all, Lizzy's prejudice toward Darcy is rooted directly in his wounding of her pride. And it is her residual pride - and continuing prejudice - that precludes her from softening towards him more than she actually does. If she knew and acknowledged the true Darcy - and realized the full extent of his affections - it might have been much easier for her to love him. Instead, she accepts his original rebuff at face value and uses it against him for most of the rest of the story. As I stated back in one of those "Wickham" threads last week, it is much easier
Posted by Rebecca on October 21, 1996 at 17:42:03:
: : P.S. I agree that Julia Sawalha's performance as Lydia is very good.
:would have been good as Lydia if Julia had not played her.
: We all know that Colin Firth played a fantastic Darcy but seeing Colin's previous films, I just couldn't imagine him playing Darcy. (He looks so different!!) It's amazing what producers and directors can see in actors for them to cast them. And they did a brilliant job in transforming Colin to Darcy. (Not to mention Colin's acting abilities, of course).
Actually, I thought his performance in "Valmont" and his developing a sort of version of the "Look" in "The Advocate" is what got him asked to do Darcy. Those were the roles where he was the lead romantic character. I agree he is quite different in roles that are not of that type. Besides, the casting directors knew he could do "period."
Posted by Rebecca on October 21, 1996 at 17:43:21:
: I just want to say to the members of the creative writings of the
: friends of Firth how much I have enjoyed their stories. As soon as
: I turn on my computer I always go to their page and read what new
: stories they added included. I hope they continue doing it because
: they are very entertaining. Thank you.
Me too. I love them.
Posted by Arnessa on October 21, 1996 at 17:56:53:
: I think it is Darcy who is wrestling with the idea of his own marriage at this point in time. Here he is paying a courtesy visit upon his aunt, knowing well that she wants him for a son-in-law, and now here he finds Lizzie as well, whom he is struggling constantly to resist "forming a serious design" upon. In this situation, he is almost forced to be continually thinking of his marriage!
: Joan, too
Lately I've been troubled by Darcy's "scruples that had prevented me from forming any serious design." Aside from the obvious offensiveness, is he also saying that he had designs on Lizzy that were NOT serious, that he intended to flirt with her and sport with her affections as long as he pleased without any serious purpose? I hope not. I don't think I could like a Darcy who would try to give any woman an idea he felt more than he did. Of course, in the end, he wouldn't be able to pull it off, because Darcy is a very duty-bound person. And I think if he led any woman to expect a proposal, he probably wouldn't have the heart to disappoint her even if his affections and wishes had changed. Still, when I hear him talk of "serious designs," I'm led to think of the odious Wickham. I mean, what other kind of designs could he have had on our dear Lizzy?
Posted by Debbie on October 21, 1996 at 18:53:12:
: Poor Lizzy. Why is such a nice girl receiving such repulsive and insulting proposals? First Mr. Collins and now Darcy. It is almost enough to make a girl wish not to be in company.
: Someone mentioned in their bio that this was their most uncomfortable scene to watch, but I love it, and the film has done such a wonderful job in realizing JA's intentions. Firth especially captures the unspoken nuances in the book very well.
: "He sat down for a few moments, and then getting up walked around the room. After a silence of several minutes he came towards her in an agitated manner, and thus began..."
: Firth is obviously struggling with himself as he paces the room like a caged tiger, clasping his hands, breathing audibly and quickly, looking, turning away...in vain he has struggled, indeed!
: When Lizzy tosses off her "had you behaved in a more gentleman-like manner" remark, "She saw him start at this" Firth does a visible flinch- that arrow has hit its mark!
: And "you could not have made me the offer of your hand in any possible way that would have tempted me to accept it. Again his astonishment was obvious; and he looked at her with an expression of mingled incredulity and mortification." A hard expression to achieve, I am sure, but it is there.
: And let us not forget Jennifer Ehle. You can see the shock and slowly rising anger in her face as she confronts Darcy about his misdeeds and arrogant manners. The heat and electricity in the room is palpable, and very enjoyable to watch.
Yes! I actually liked the first proposal BETTER than the second. The second is almost anti-climactic. So much suppressed passion on both sides (though Lizzy would never have admitted that) in the first scene! It's wearing out the rewind button on my VCR!
Posted by hat on October 21, 1996 at 18:57:30:
: Yes, and then Charlotte reminds Mr. Collins that they will be late if they don't hurry up, and Mr. Collins starts shouting at Charlotte about "the sovereign importance of punctuality". Poor Lizzy's headache must be getting worse by the minute!!
Do you also get the impression that Charlotte, reading both Lizzie's feelings and her husband's desire to please Lady C by not leaving Lizzie out of the visit , deliberately mentions the time so that Mr. C stops hassling Lizzie to go. She knows perfectly well that the issue of his puntuality will put him in a spin, and them on their way, minus Lizzie. She is really very astute, in all except one (very far-reaching) issue.
Posted by hat on October 21, 1996 at 19:05:19:
: I kind of like what A.A. Milne did in his adaptation of the
: proposal scene.
Can you tell me the title etc. of the Milne version? From this snippet it sounds interesting. I know it was discussed earlier, but I missed it for some reason, so sorry to backtrack.
Posted by Kathy on October 21, 1996 at 19:34:26:
....people I have no interest in just to be thought generally agreeable by strangers. I'd rather be thought agreeable by you alone."
: OK, maybe I overstep a bit, but that's my interpretation.
I like the way you put that, kathy
Posted by hat on October 21, 1996 at 19:48:55:
: : : The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers."
: : : Joan, too
: : ___________________
: : I love this line, but I can't work it out either. The closest I've come to accepting is:
: They are alike in not neccesarily taking notice of such social conventions; they both are true to their own sense of integrity.
: : Hilary
: "I could've been practicing the art of chitchat but I've been doing better things as you have. Though society tells ladies to seek accomplishments like netting purses and playing the piano, you have been improving your mind, which makes ME, if not strangers, think your society more pleasing than that of the most accomplished pianist. Likewise, I am not going to dance because society says gentleman must dance or talk to people I have no interest in just to be thought generally agreeable by strangers. I'd rather be thought agreeable by you alone."
: OK, maybe I overstep a bit, but that's my interpretation.
I don't think you overstep. I'm glad we agree.
Maybe the thing that bothered me about the line was that while I personally agree with this attitude of sticking to your guns despite social convention, I think its important to know what impact you are having, and to be able to weigh up if the negativity you cause is worth it, not only to others, but to yourself. I can't decide if Darcy does know this and thinks the offence he generally gives is worth it (if so, why is he so shocked when Lizzie calls him ungenlemanly - he obviously aspires to being gentlemanly); or if he is oblivious to it, in which case, how can he be saying such a knowing thing to her - 'We neither of us perform to strangers'? Or, does he see it as a fault (endearing in Lizzie's case?),in both of them? (Maybe this is my unease - I think its generally a good quality, but I'm having to interpret it as a bad one?)
In relation to this I've also been thinking about Mrs. Gardiner writing to Lizzie about Darcy and saying:
'I fancy Lizzie, that obstinancy is the real defect of his character after all. He has been accused of many faults at different times; but *this* is the true one.'
I'm sure that we are meant to believe that this is JA's opinion too. What Darcy says during the incident at the piano is evidence of this: he, (and Lizzie for that matter), stick to things they believe in.
Posted by Marie on October 21, 1996 at 19:50:08:
: Marie - I was just re-reading this (in the book) as I found that part of the conversation confusing too. (Paraphrasing) He says he doesn't converse easily with strangers. She says that she doesn't play as well as she'd like but that it was her fault for not practicing enough. And then he says:
: You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better. No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you can think anything wanting.
: If she didn't practice enough, then how did she employ her time that would have others think nothing wanting?
: I too am confused --
Yes, that's the whole of the conversation I was referring to. I'd forgotten the last sentence, which was the very part that makes the whole thing so confusing. I'm sure Darcy found listening to Lizzie play one of his chief delights, but I'm also sure that he was also a good enough judge and sufficiently objective to realize that her playing was not superb. (Just as I may find more pleasure gazing at my husband than at ______, but that doesn't mean that I think he is actually better looking than _____.) So what does he mean? Maybe I should read the rest of the responses.
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