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Posted by Ann on October 20, 1996 at 23:20:01:
: Bingley doesn't seem to have, either - when Lizzie tells Jane about the engagement, Jane says "Nothing could give either Bingley or myself more delight. But we considered it, we talked of it as impossible."
: Joan, too
___________________
We have Darcy as another source for Bingley's suprise:
"On the evening before my going to London, I made a
confession to him which I believe I ought to have made long
ago. I told him of all that had occurred to make my former
interference in his affairs absurd and impertinent. His
suprise was great. He had never the slightest suspicion."
"all that occurred" must have been his own attraction and
proposal to Lizzy; though how much he would have revealed
to Bingley is uncertain. People didn't go about imposing
their own heartbreak on others (refer to Dashwood, Elinor).
Ann
Posted by Kali on October 20, 1996 at 23:25:09:
: : Cheryl
: : I would like to propose for discussion the question of Charlotte: Is she to be pitied or not?
: : For myself, I feel a combination of admiration for getting on as well as she does and sorrow- to have to spend every day in the company of Collins and Lady Catherine! Can having her own home really be worth it? She seems to think so.
:
: ___________________
:
:
: Considering the times and her family's fortune, I do not believe Charlotte is to be pitied. Most marriages were for reasons other than love and though Mr. Collins is stupid and embarrassing, he is not evil or violent. Once Mr. Collins gets Longbourn they will be far away from Lady C so Charlotte does have something to look forward to.
: Anne
___________________
It seems that Charlotte has done quite well - she can take care of herself and muscle around her husband to get what she wants and fend off what she doesn't (Scarlett O'Hara was a master at this until she married Rhett). Now she is far away from her family - which one can only assume that she'd be sick of by her age - and will eventually be rid of Lady Catherine, as Anne says. Hell, it seems a lot better than the alternative - sitting at home with your parents as the neighborhood whispers about your sad condition for the rest of your life.
- K
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on October 20, 1996 at 23:25:31:
: : Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Forster plays one of the Musgrove sisters in Persuasion?
:
: ___________________
: Until you mentioned it, I hadn't noticed. I believe she was Louisa.
: Ann
___________________
She was Henrietta Musgrove. Just found out that Lucy Steele {I don't know her real name}is in Tweleth Night impersonating young man. Also with Helena Bonham Carter. Trevor Nunn is the director.
Ciao Donna
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 20, 1996 at 23:27:55:
: : : Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Forster plays one of the Musgrove sisters in Persuasion?
: :
: : ___________________
: : Until you mentioned it, I hadn't noticed. I believe she was Louisa.
: : Ann
:
: ___________________
: She was Henrietta Musgrove. Just found out that Lucy Steele {I don't know her real name}is in Tweleth Night impersonating young man. Also with Helena Bonham Carter. Trevor Nunn is the director.
: Ciao Donna
___________________
Lucy Steele (Imogen Stubbs) was also the lead in A&E's
"Anna Lee" mystery series.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on October 20, 1996 at 23:29:56:
: :
: : : The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers."
: : : Joan, too
: :
: : ___________________
: : I love this line, but I can't work it out either. The closest I've come to accepting is:
: They are alike in not neccesarily taking notice of such social conventions; they both are true to their own sense of integrity.
: : Hilary
:
: ___________________
: I think that's the exact meaning, Hilary. On Austen-L there has been a lengthy debate on the exact meaning of this line, so I think each person must interpret it as he or she will.
: But since I have a hotline to Austen (not!), I'll tell you what I think.
: Remember that Darcy is trying to defend himself against her teasing that he "only danced FOUR dances" at Meryton. And when he says he is "ill-qualified to recommend himself to strangers," she doesn't accept the excuse saying, well you should practice more.
: So then he tries another argument saying basically, "I could've been practicing the art of chitchat but I've been doing better things as you have. Though society tells ladies to seek accomplishments like netting purses and playing the piano, you have been improving your mind, which makes ME, if not strangers, think your society more pleasing than that of the most accomplished pianist. Likewise, I am not going to dance because society says gentleman must dance or talk to people I have no interest in just to be thought generally agreeable by strangers. I'd rather be thought agreeable by you alone."
: OK, maybe I overstep a bit, but that's my interpretation.
: -Arnessa.
___________________
I agree. Darcy and Lizzy are definitely their own people, and not overly attentive to the conventions of society or to the whims of their associates. "To thine own self be true..."
- K
Posted by Donna on October 20, 1996 at 23:32:53:
: : : Anne:
: : : In the book this conversation seems to take place between just Lizzy and
: : : Mr. B - but in the film version they are all together in the sitting
: : : room and he makes sport of it as Jane sits there looking sad. I think
: : : that it would have been better tete-a-tete as in the book.
: : : Just a thought
: : ___________________
: : So glad you brought this up. I agree that it was better in the book, especially since
: : it make Lizzie seem insensitive to Jane's unhappiness as well. Lizzie would not have
: : wanted to discuss the topic in Jane's presence.
: : kathleen
:
: ___________________
: Yes, this has bothered me, as well - it's the only time that Mr. B. attempts to have fun at the expense of his two favorite daughters, and it seems out of character for both he and Lizzie.
: Joan, too
___________________
I thought I remember reading that it was written that Mr. B. was not always a gentleman. Maybe I am wrong.
Donna
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kali on October 21, 1996 at 00:03:38:
: : ___________________
: : : Can`t we just ignore mean and awful messages?
: : Yes. That is what we would have to do if we were we to switch to Usenet as some have suggested.
: : Then it would be public and participants would feel even more of a right to dictate what we should and should not talk about.
: : I like this format for the links, pictures and fun-with-HTML stuff (your use of bold characters did not go unnoticed, Ann2 -- isn't it fun?) I also like the community here and I liked the whole tone of the board altogether until last night.
: : You sensed right. The invasion did wound me. Somebody came here, into my drawing room, so it seems to me, saying: Betty was the only one who had a clue... certain of us are saps... and more.
: : Well, the way I look at it, she does not get to remain as a guest in my house and she is not welcome to come back and gather with the rest of us. Rather than let her insult my friends, and try to ignore that she is sitting across from me, drinking my tea, I will pop her out just as Samantha the Witch might do.
: : Also I returned home last night to find not only this invasion but a hostile frightening phone message from my ex. Think I will go out and see a comedy.
: : Amy
:
: __________
: This must be upsetting for you. I can well imagine how you must feel, but clearly you have many friends here who understand and appreciate what you are doing. As a newcomer, I do not know the history of how this site came to be, but there seems to be a nice following. It would be a shame to allow those who "do not have anything better to do" to disrupt the good intentions and enjoyment of others. As Mary B. might say, "let not them put asunder" or something like that... You are held in high regard by others more worthy. Thank you for what you are doing.
: _________
___________________
I don't think many passers-through understand how personal an attack on our BB is. THe Web is still so new that many people don't know how much work it takes to keep a board like this up and running, nor do they comprehend that Netiquette is just as important as common courtesy and politeness in the regular, face-to-face world. Maybe this is because there are no faces to put to the names or the words.
Amy, is there some way we can present some background for this board, in which we can ease some good-natured ground rules? Maybe, if we give people some context and a little prep, folks will better understand the nature of our mission and the sanctity of our space without feeling like they can't participate. Certainly, there are people who will terrorize regardless, but maybe it could clue in those who might glibly glide through, slashing us with forked tongue, without understanding what we can and can't abide by.
Again, thank you Amy for your dedication to this haven for the intransigent obsessed. I love you guys, and will do anything I can to help ease the burden of attacks on this beloved BB.
- K
Follow Ups:
Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on October 21, 1996 at 00:06:48:
: : If the world is tough, you just gotta resolve to be tougher, I guess...
: I suppose. My seven year old would counsel the same. His dinosaur (sort of) Haiku above.
: Amy
___________________
I don't think it has the correct number of syllables to be haiku...
Link:
Posted by Janet on October 21, 1996 at 00:11:36:
: : Janet:
: : Nevertheless, sometimes I sensed that Jane and her father tended to tease Lizzy about how much she despised Darcy. Her espoused detest for him was almost a case of her "protesting too much". She may have been biding her time until she knew for sure how it would all work out, but she did confide in Jane enough that I don't see how it could have been such a surprise. After all, Charlotte was able to see through the smoke, as did the Gardiners.
:
: ___________________
: She did not - could not - confide all to Jane after discovering Darcy's role in separating Bingley from her. She felt that it would only cause Jane more pain to hear about that, and she could not "tell all" about Darcy without going into the Bingley thing - and now that I think of it, if Darcy had made his second proposal at Lambton, perhaps Lizzie would have felt disloyal to Jane if she accepted him. How could she be happy at the prospect of marying the person whom she knew to be responsible for ending Jane's hopes of happiness? Lydia's escapade appears to have been fortunately rather than unfortunately timed! :-)
: Joan, too
__________
That's right, Lizzy always stops short of revealing all of her exchanges with Darcy in part for Jane's sake. Darcy had to first complete his turn-around of interference with Bingley, as well as the resolution of the Wickham scandal. When Darcy brought Bingley to meet lizzy at the inn, the book dwells on how Lizzy was eager to 1) judge his reactions to Georgiana whom Caroline claimed was now the object of his affections, and 2) examine any interest he may demonstrate concerning Jane. Happily, he scored well on both counts and Lizzy must have been delighted for Jane's sake. I wonder if Darcy had plugged anything in preparation for this meeting, but we aren't always privy to his out-of-scene conversations. Later, Darcy pulls a similar examination of Jane's response to Bingley when they visit Longbourn prior to giving Bingley his "consent", hence his lack of attention to Lizzy. Little may Bingley and Jane know what matchmaking was thwarted and modified along the way.
_________
Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on October 21, 1996 at 00:15:07:
: Does anyone know how Darcy's parents died? I believe that Darcy's mother died before his father (which was only a few years ago). Darcy and Fitzwilliam became guardians of Georgiana after Darcy Snr died. Does this mean that Georgiana did not really know her mother? Any ideas?
: Lilian
___________________
Well, she would have been Lady Anne Darcy, not "Mrs. Anne Darcy". Nothing is said of the causes of their deaths. The chronology is fixed by Darcy in his letter: ``My excellent father died about five years ago''.
If Lady Anne Darcy died about the same time, Georgiana could have been ten years old, or a little less, but I don't think the date of death is pinned down...
Posted by Janet on October 21, 1996 at 00:32:05:
:
: : Once before someone mentioned the Mr. Bennet's discussion with Lizzy of Lady
: : C's letter was very insensitive of him. That I could understand
: : more than his saying:
: : So, Lizzy, your sister is crossed in love I find. I congratulate her.
: : Next to being married, a girl likes to be crossed in love a little now
: : and then.
: : In the book this conversation seems to take place between just Lizzy and
: : Mr. B - but in the film version they are all together in the sitting
: : room and he makes sport of it as Jane sits there looking sad. I think
: : that it would have been better tete-a-tete as in the book.
: : Just a thought
: : Anne
: ___________________
: So glad you brought this up. I agree that it was better in the book, especially since
: it make Lizzie seem insensitive to Jane's unhappiness as well. Lizzie would not have
: wanted to discuss the topic in Jane's presence.
: kathleen
__________
Am I correct that in the film's version of this scene, Lizzy makes somewhat of a gaff about not being jilted by as good a man as Bingley. This upsets Jane so much that she gets up and leaves the room. I was surprised at Lizzy being somewhat out of character rather than Mr. B who seeming to enjoy a good teasing, even about such unhappy matters as these.
_________
Posted by Janet on October 21, 1996 at 00:32:36:
:
: : Once before someone mentioned the Mr. Bennet's discussion with Lizzy of Lady
: : C's letter was very insensitive of him. That I could understand
: : more than his saying:
: : So, Lizzy, your sister is crossed in love I find. I congratulate her.
: : Next to being married, a girl likes to be crossed in love a little now
: : and then.
: : In the book this conversation seems to take place between just Lizzy and
: : Mr. B - but in the film version they are all together in the sitting
: : room and he makes sport of it as Jane sits there looking sad. I think
: : that it would have been better tete-a-tete as in the book.
: : Just a thought
: : Anne
: ___________________
: So glad you brought this up. I agree that it was better in the book, especially since
: it make Lizzie seem insensitive to Jane's unhappiness as well. Lizzie would not have
: wanted to discuss the topic in Jane's presence.
: kathleen
__________
Am I correct that in the film's version of this scene, Lizzy makes somewhat of a gaff about not being jilted by as good a man as Bingley. This upsets Jane so much that she gets up and leaves the room. I was surprised at Lizzy being somewhat out of character rather than Mr. B who seeming to enjoy a good teasing, even about such unhappy matters as these.
_________
Posted by DonnaT on October 21, 1996 at 03:56:05:
:
: : Seems to me that this P&P obsession has really e
: ___________________
: Yes, I will be reading the English Patient shortly because I won't let myself go to the movie until I've read it (not a constant rule for me but it is supposed to be a good book).
: And we are all enriched by the web of friends Amy has gathered at this site.
: Jane A.
___________________IThis BB is so wonderful, it is an affirmation that I am not alone in my little quirks, truth be told I ran to the library and found Joseph Conrad's Nostromo when I saw Firth was going to be in it. I am amazed how this group of BB's have so much in common. I waited anxiously for Moll Flanders, love Star Trek and Cary Grant. Next to the library for The English Patient and 1000 Acres. Obsession is good. DonnaT
Follow Ups:
Posted by Bernie on October 21, 1996 at 04:53:10:
: ___________________
: No, this actually is what she is saying, and her husband does almost have a heart attack, and begins to protest by saying something like, "My dear Charlotte, I beg you to consider..." but is interrupted by Lizzie refusing her offer, saying that it's only a headache and will go away more quickly in quiet and solitude.
: Joan, too
___________________
Yes, and then Charlotte reminds Mr. Collins that they will be late if they don't hurry up, and Mr. Collins starts shouting at Charlotte about "the sovereign importance of punctuality". Poor Lizzy's headache must be getting worse by the minute!! No wonder she has such an expression of relief on her face, as soon as Mr. Collins walks out of the house. Peace and quiet at last......but not for long.
Bernie
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anne on October 21, 1996 at 07:14:06:
: So glad you brought this up. I agree that it was better in the book, especially since
: it make Lizzie seem insensitive to Jane's unhappiness as well. Lizzie would not have
: wanted to discuss the topic in Jane's presence.
: kathleen
___________________
You could tell that Lizzy was not happy with the conversation. She looks pained and keeps watching Jane. It does seem incongruous that she would keep up her side of the conversation (as written) in those circumstances.
Anne
Posted by Donna on October 21, 1996 at 08:42:04:
: : : : Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Forster plays one of the Musgrove sisters in Persuasion?
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Until you mentioned it, I hadn't noticed. I believe she was Louisa.
: : : Ann
: :
: : ___________________
: : She was Henrietta Musgrove. Just found out that Lucy Steele {I don't know her real name}is in Tweleth Night impersonating young man. Also with Helena Bonham Carter. Trevor Nunn is the director.
: : Ciao Donna
:
: ___________________
: Lucy Steele (Imogen Stubbs) was also the lead in A&E's
: "Anna Lee" mystery series.
___________________
She is on the left
Donna
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on October 21, 1996 at 08:45:36:
: : : : Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Forster plays one of the Musgrove sisters in Persuasion?
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Until you mentioned it, I hadn't noticed. I believe she was Louisa.
: : : Ann
: :
: : ___________________
: : She was Henrietta Musgrove. Just found out that Lucy Steele {I don't know her real name}is in Tweleth Night impersonating young man. Also with Helena Bonham Carter. Trevor Nunn is the director.
: : Ciao Donna
:
: ___________________
: Lucy Steele (Imogen Stubbs) was also the lead in A&E's
: "Anna Lee" mystery series.
___________________
Since that didn't work try this
Donna
Link:
Posted by Grace on October 21, 1996 at 08:53:37:
:
: :
: : : Seems to me that this P&P obsession has really e
: : ___________________
: : Yes, I will be reading the English Patient shortly because I won't let myself go to the movie until I've read it (not a constant rule for me but it is supposed to be a good book).
: : And we are all enriched by the web of friends Amy has gathered at this site.
: : Jane A.
: ___________________IThis BB is so wonderful, it is an affirmation that I am not alone in my little quirks, truth be told I ran to the library and found Joseph Conrad's Nostromo when I saw Firth was going to be in it. I am amazed how this group of BB's have so much in common. I waited anxiously for Moll Flanders, love Star Trek and Cary Grant. Next to the library for The English Patient and 1000 Acres. Obsession is good. DonnaT
___________________
: You are so right. (In fact, I was determined to read Nostromo also and found it on the web. Pretty tough on the eyes, though!) Link below.
: Grace
Posted by Grace on October 21, 1996 at 09:14:05:
:
: : By the way, has anyone read MOO (also by Smiley)? Were you disappointed? I certainly was; no comparison to 1000Acres.
: : : Grace
:
: ___________________
:
: Grace, I loved A Thousand Acres. It was amazing that a book he and I liked so much, the actual quality of the writing as well as the ambitiousness (hubris?) of what Smiley was doing, could be received with very mixed feelings by the freshmen, many of whom didn't get it.
: Jane A. .)
___________________
: I can see how eighteen year olds might have trouble with this one. It is a powerful book. (I had been told what it was about and was actually reluctant to pick it up. I wonder how that affected my reading- was I able to recognize symbolism and foreshadowing that others might miss on a first reading?)
As for Moo, I was just mad that I had wasted my time with it, though I can see how your experiences would make some of it relevant.
: By the way, I recently moved away from the Boston area after living there for many years. How I miss it!
Posted by Grace on October 21, 1996 at 09:23:14:
: : : : : Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Forster plays one of the Musgrove sisters in Persuasion?
: : : :
: : : : ___________________
: : : : Until you mentioned it, I hadn't noticed. I believe she was Louisa.
: : : : Ann
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : She was Henrietta Musgrove. Just found out that Lucy Steele {I don't know her real name}is in Tweleth Night impersonating young man. Also with Helena Bonham Carter. Trevor Nunn is the director.
: : : Ciao Donna
: :
: : ___________________
: : Lucy Steele (Imogen Stubbs) was also the lead in A&E's
: : "Anna Lee" mystery series.
:
: ___________________
: She is on the left
: Donna
___________________
: If you haven't seen the Lucy to Elinor Dashwood letter composed by Imogen Stubbs, try to get a copy. It is wonderfully clever! (Emma Thompson includes it at the end of the Sense and Sensibility Screenplay and Diaries.)
: Grace
Follow Ups:
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