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Posted by Janet on October 20, 1996 at 21:12:35:
: : : : The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers."
: : : : Joan, too
: :
: : :Can anyone tell me what the earlier part of Darcy's remark means, i.e., when he says (and I quote--and maybe misquote--from memory): "You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better." Since Lizzie is not as proficient at the piano as she could be because, by her own admission, she has not practiced enough, what can Darcy be referring to? I have long been puzzled by this comment, and would love some explication.
: : Thanks in advance.
: : Marie
:
: ___________________
:
:
: Marie - I was just re-reading this (in the book) as I found that part of the conversation confusing too. (Paraphrasing) He says he doesn't converse easily with strangers. She says that she doesn't play as well as she'd like but that it was her fault for not practicing enough. And then he says:
: You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better. No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you can think anything wanting.
: If she didn't practice enough, then how did she employ her time that would have others think nothing wanting?
: I too am confused --
: Anne
_________
You quoted this line accurately, and I did not in my other post. I still thinks he means to extend a compliment to her playing; even though she spent her time becoming accomplished in other areas, she still played beautifully. Perhaps he wanted to be sure she would not "willfully misunderstand" his remark as a criticism, as she often did. He did seem to enjoy her playing, as we see later at Pemberley, but perhaps more so because of the performer herself.__________
Posted by Janet on October 20, 1996 at 21:21:13:
:
: : The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers." Lizzie actually appears quite outgoing and seems to enjoy meeting new people and interacting with them, so it's hard to find any evidence that Darcy would have been able to observe that would lead him to decide that Lizzie would have trouble performing to strangers - unless he meant specifically "performing" on the pianoforte, which seems to be a poor point of comparison for "we neither of us".
: : Joan, too
: ___________________
: Didn't the Mysterious H. C. have a link on this topic some while back?
: I used to think that Darcy meant that Elizabeth made friends easily, and therefore didn't have to "perform" to strangers, while he simply didn't "perform" unless he knew (and liked?) the people he was with.
: kathleen
_________
In fact, Lizzy did not always perform well to strangers, blinded by her pride and prejudice and all, as in her misinterpretations of Wickham and Darcy. She let the Bingley sisters get her back up, too, which only exascerbated their determination to jab her. With Lady C., Lizzy exhibited her outspokenness and later her "insolence" as opposed to others who "Yes, ma'am"ed her as she expected. I know this may not be the material point here, but it occurred to me anyway.
__________
Posted by kathleen on October 20, 1996 at 21:26:17:
: Once before someone mentioned the Mr. Bennet's discussion with Lizzy of Lady
: C's letter was very insensitive of him. That I could understand
: more than his saying:
: So, Lizzy, your sister is crossed in love I find. I congratulate her.
: Next to being married, a girl likes to be crossed in love a little now
: and then.
: In the book this conversation seems to take place between just Lizzy and
: Mr. B - but in the film version they are all together in the sitting
: room and he makes sport of it as Jane sits there looking sad. I think
: that it would have been better tete-a-tete as in the book.
: Just a thought
: Anne
___________________
So glad you brought this up. I agree that it was better in the book, especially since
it make Lizzie seem insensitive to Jane's unhappiness as well. Lizzie would not have
wanted to discuss the topic in Jane's presence.
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 20, 1996 at 21:28:43:
: Anne:
: Marie - I was just re-reading this (in the book) as I found that part of the conversation confusing too. (Paraphrasing) He says he doesn't converse easily with strangers. She says that she doesn't play as well as she'd like but that it was her fault for not practicing enough. And then he says: You are perfectly right. You have employed your time much better. No one admitted to the privilege of hearing you can think anything wanting. If she didn't practice enough, then how did she employ her time that would have others think nothing wanting? I too am confused --
___________________
I've always thought that Darcy meant that rather than spending all of her time practicing on the pianoforte, she has also cultivated her skills in conversation, makes time to improve her mind by reading, etc, and thus has spent her time well - also (as discussed some weeks ago) he appears not to have a great deal of musical expertise; he detects no fault in her musical skills, and doesn't think she needs to spend more time practicing - he even recommends Lizzie's musical talents highly to his sister. (The earlier discussion was regarding the musical "errors" deliberately made by Davis, with experienced musicians feeling that they were so obvious as to appear phony, while those less expert were not even aware of what mistakes were made.)
Joan, too
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Posted by Jane A. on October 20, 1996 at 21:29:02:
Would be interested to know where you found all of these movies. They don't have much at the local blockbuster and I hate to buy them unless they're really good.
: Glad you had a nice vacation.
: Pamela
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Pamela, my local Blockbuster got copies of the BBC Austen videos in the last couple of months, so maybe if you asked they might get them. (They're always rented when I look for them, so it's good business sense for them to get them). Good luck!
Jane A.
Posted by kathleen on October 20, 1996 at 21:36:04:
In the portion of the book covered by the 3rd tape, Elizabeth thinks of Darcy marrying -- Miss De Bourgh, that is. When she first sees Anne, Lizzie thinks she looks cross enough to be a pain of a wife to Darcy. Later she watches him to see if there is any admiration of Anne. (She even has an almost kind reflection for Caroline Bingley.)
And, in the tete-a-tete at Hunsford, Darcy & Elizabeth discuss the marriage of Mr & Mrs Collins; Elizabeth even admits that the marriage was a good match for Charlotte, from a prudential point of view.
Elizabeth & Darcy both have his marriage on their minds, it seems.
kathleen
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Posted by Joan, too on October 20, 1996 at 21:39:35:
: : Anne:
: : In the book this conversation seems to take place between just Lizzy and
: : Mr. B - but in the film version they are all together in the sitting
: : room and he makes sport of it as Jane sits there looking sad. I think
: : that it would have been better tete-a-tete as in the book.
: : Just a thought
: ___________________
: So glad you brought this up. I agree that it was better in the book, especially since
: it make Lizzie seem insensitive to Jane's unhappiness as well. Lizzie would not have
: wanted to discuss the topic in Jane's presence.
: kathleen
___________________
Yes, this has bothered me, as well - it's the only time that Mr. B. attempts to have fun at the expense of his two favorite daughters, and it seems out of character for both he and Lizzie.
Joan, too
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Posted by Arnessa on October 20, 1996 at 21:42:30:
: My bugs were Mrs Forster's hand forever flapping
: around her throat and the stopped clock during the first proposal.
: Maybe Mrs Forster is a better actress than I gave her credit for
: - it was a small part and just by flapping that hand around, she
: had my full attention!
___________________
Mrs. Forster is described in the book as a bit of a flirt, I think, (I don't have the book at hand) or at least as silly and empty-headed as Lydia. That's why they're such fast friends. Since she only has one or two lines in the film, "I think Denny and Sanderson are well pleased already." and (to Wickham) "Come here," they have to capture the essence of her character in gesture. And I think the hand flapping around the throat, especially with THAT posture, could be the universal sign of a tease. (Take note, guys.) So one can easily imagine a young woman in Mrs. Forster's care could have a romance with a cad like Wickham right under her nose.
Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Forster plays one of the Musgrove sisters in Persuasion?
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 20, 1996 at 21:56:34:
: kathleen:
: In the portion of the book covered by the 3rd tape, Elizabeth thinks of Darcy marrying -- Miss De Bourgh, that is. When she first sees Anne, Lizzie thinks she looks cross enough to be a pain of a wife to Darcy.
But this is because she was led into this "thinking" by Wickham who has told her that Miss DeBourgh is intended to be Darcy's wife.
: And, in the tete-a-tete at Hunsford, Darcy & Elizabeth discuss the marriage of Mr & Mrs Collins; Elizabeth even admits that the marriage was a good match for Charlotte, from a prudential point of view.
And in this instance, it is Darcy has opened this topic of conversation.
: Elizabeth & Darcy both have his marriage on their minds, it seems.
I think it is Darcy who is wrestling with the idea of his own marriage at this point in time. Here he is paying a courtesy visit upon his aunt, knowing well that she wants him for a son-in-law, and now here he finds Lizzie as well, whom he is struggling constantly to resist "forming a serious design" upon. In this situation, he is almost forced to be continually thinking of his marriage!
Joan, too
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Posted by Janet on October 20, 1996 at 22:07:20:
: : I don't know about Bingley, but Jane didn't know anything about Lizzy's love for darcy until she told her that they were engaged. Jane didn't even believe her at first.
: : Stefanie
:
: ___________________
: Bingley doesn't seem to have, either - when Lizzie tells Jane about the engagement, Jane says "Nothing could give either Bingley or myself more delight. But we considered it, we talked of it as impossible."
: Joan, too
_________
So Lizzy succeeded in fooling them all. How little her family knew of her. Her mother, so intent on marrying her daughters off so well, never knew anything about what was happening with Lizzy. In fact, she could hardly seem to care less about her, trying to use her as the sacrifical lamb for Mr. Collins. She clearly related and deferred to the likes of Lydia from a similar mold. Mrs. B almost outdid herself by nearly preventing both of the most sought-after marriages.
Nevertheless, sometimes I sensed that Jane and her father tended to tease Lizzy about how much she despised Darcy. Her espoused detest for him was almost a case of her "protesting too much". She may have been biding her time until she knew for sure how it would all work out, but she did confide in Jane enough that I don't see how it could have been such a surprise. After all, Charlotte was able to see through the smoke, as did the Gardiners.
__________
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Posted by Lilian on October 20, 1996 at 22:08:27:
: : : You think maybe he is also trying to find out if she would like to be away from the obnoxious members of the family?
: :
: : ___________________
: : Oh yes, definately. I don't imagine Lizzy pining away for her family once she is at Pemberly and Jane and Bingley have taken up residence nearby.
:
: ___________________
:
:
: Yes, the book mentions that one of the reasons that she went to see Charlotte was:
: ... and as, with such a mother and such uncompanionable sisters, home could not be faultless...
:
: I think that she will miss her father but Jane would have been the greater loss and she moved nearer Lizzy to get away from her mother.
: Anne
___________________
Yes, although Mr. Bennett did frequent Pemberley a lot after Lizzy got married.
Lilian
Posted by Arnessa on October 20, 1996 at 22:09:58:
:
: : The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers."
: : Joan, too
:
: ___________________
: I love this line, but I can't work it out either. The closest I've come to accepting is:
They are alike in not neccesarily taking notice of such social conventions; they both are true to their own sense of integrity.
: Hilary
___________________
I think that's the exact meaning, Hilary. On Austen-L there has been a lengthy debate on the exact meaning of this line, so I think each person must interpret it as he or she will.
But since I have a hotline to Austen (not!), I'll tell you what I think.
Remember that Darcy is trying to defend himself against her teasing that he "only danced FOUR dances" at Meryton. And when he says he is "ill-qualified to recommend himself to strangers," she doesn't accept the excuse saying, well you should practice more.
So then he tries another argument saying basically, "I could've been practicing the art of chitchat but I've been doing better things as you have. Though society tells ladies to seek accomplishments like netting purses and playing the piano, you have been improving your mind, which makes ME, if not strangers, think your society more pleasing than that of the most accomplished pianist. Likewise, I am not going to dance because society says gentleman must dance or talk to people I have no interest in just to be thought generally agreeable by strangers. I'd rather be thought agreeable by you alone."
OK, maybe I overstep a bit, but that's my interpretation.
-Arnessa.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 20, 1996 at 22:14:45:
: Cheryl:
: At last, an invitation to Rosings is issued, we have the wonderful piano scene and Darcy has made up his mind. From then on, he is at the parsonage almost every day, he goes out of his way to find Lizzy's favorite walks and to join her, Fitzwilliam says he has put off his departure date from Rosings several times- it is not for the sake of Lady C's company that he does this. He has decided. He must have Lizzy.
___________________
I don't think he has actually made up his mind till she doesn't show up for dinner because of her headache. If he had decided during the piano scene at Rosings (during which he definitely does seem to be leaning precariously in that direction) he would not have needed to put off his departure date time after time - he'd have gone right out and asked her - on one of those "accidental" meetings in the woods. But he is still arguing with himself about it right up to the moment of truth - and even then he looks as if he may not go through with it.
Joan, too
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Posted by Lilian on October 20, 1996 at 22:17:54:
Does anyone know how Darcy's parents died? I believe that Darcy's mother died before his father (which was only a few years ago) but to me, Darcy's parents seemed very young to die so soon. Darcy and Fitzwilliam became guardians of Georgiana after Darcy Snr died. Does this mean that Georgiana did not really know her mother? Any ideas?
Lilian
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Posted by Janet on October 20, 1996 at 22:18:21:
: : Janet:
: : Her pride and prejudice lead her to misinterpret at first, willfully or otherwise, and later when the truth may be clear to us about how Darcy feels about her, she still fails to see it clearly.
:
: ___________________
: She does not see it, but I think more because at first she does not feel deserving because of how she had behaved, and then just as she dares to begin to believe that he still cares for her, the Lydia scandal occurs, and she is well enough aware of the social conventions to firmly believe that no respectable man will want anything to do with the Bennet family - much less Darcy, since allying himself with her would connect him by marriage to Wickham, who is the last person in the world that he would want to asssociate with.
: Joan, too
__________
Yes, there are so many instances in which she considers alternate views of the situation and comes out on the short end. This back and forth, considering different views of the same scenario, are what makes the story continually interesting (and this BB, I might add). To his credit, even in the scene at the inn, Darcy rises to the challenge and proves himself to be deserving after all. The suspense of not knowing whether he will succumb to social pressure over this scandal, or do the right thing, is felt by Lizzy and the reader. JA described her bit of ivory so appropriately; a finely honed view of social microcosm, extracted from the beast.
_________
Posted by Amy on October 20, 1996 at 22:47:23:
: If the world is tough, you just gotta resulve to be tougher, I guess...
___________________
I suppose. My seven year old would counsel the same. His dinosaur (sort of) Haiku above.
Amy
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Posted by Ann on October 20, 1996 at 22:51:30:
: Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Forster plays one of the Musgrove sisters in Persuasion?
___________________
Until you mentioned it, I hadn't noticed. I believe she was Louisa.
Ann
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Posted by Kali on October 20, 1996 at 23:04:22:
: Elizabeth cannot believe that Charlotte would accept Mr. Collins' proposal. In fact she is quite rude to Charlotte when told about it. (Almost as rude as Lydia and Mrs. B are when Sir William announces it to the family.)
: Charlotte, on the other hand, is certain that Eliza would change her opinion of Mr. Darcy "if she could suppose him to be in her power."
: These are friends who do not know each other on this topic. In fact, Lizzie & Jane are better friends, as well as being loving sisters. (Which is why Lizzie turns to Jane after Charlotte has accepted Mr. C's proposal.)
: kathleen
___________________
Charlotte is in a very different position than Lizzy or Jane. SHe is several years older, and much less inclined to marry for love (she admits that it is her nature, but it's hard not to suspect her situation, as well, as the reason). Elizabeth, assuming that Charlotte - as a close friend and ally - is of the same mind as she, probably forgets that Charlotte is not bound to the same standard of loyalty (if you want to call it that) and consistency as is a sister.
But while Lizzy may not completely understand Charlotte, it is possible that Charlotte understands Lizzy more than she does herself. After all, Lizzy's prejudice toward Darcy is rooted directly in his wounding of her pride. And it is her residual pride - and continuing prejudice - that precludes her from softening towards him more than she actually does. If she knew and acknowledged the true Darcy - and realized the full extent of his affections - it might have been much easier for her to love him. Instead, she accepts his original rebuff at face value and uses it against him for most of the rest of the story. As I stated back in one of those "Wickham" threads last week, it is much easier for a woman to fall in love with a man who is obviously interested in her - and presumably in her power. And the opposite, of course, is the old story of the woman scorned.
- K
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Posted by Ann on October 20, 1996 at 23:04:51:
: : Cheryl:
: : At last, an invitation to Rosings is issued, we have the wonderful piano scene and Darcy has made up his mind. From then on, he is at the parsonage almost every day, he goes out of his way to find Lizzy's favorite walks and to join her, Fitzwilliam says he has put off his departure date from Rosings several times- it is not for the sake of Lady C's company that he does this. He has decided. He must have Lizzy.
:
: ___________________
: I don't think he has actually made up his mind till she doesn't show up for dinner because of her headache. If he had decided during the piano scene at Rosings (during which he definitely does seem to be leaning precariously in that direction) he would not have needed to put off his departure date time after time - he'd have gone right out and asked her - on one of those "accidental" meetings in the woods. But he is still arguing with himself about it right up to the moment of truth - and even then he looks as if he may not go through with it.
: Joan, too
___________________
I kind of like what A.A. Milne did in his adaptation of the
proposal scene.
Part of Darcy's proposal:
"All these days since I have been at Rosings I have been
struggling against the madness which was holding me; and all
these days I have been watching you, and listening to you,
trying to find some fault in you which would bring me back
to my senses, and convince me of the impossibility, the
unseemliness, the degradation of such a marriage."
--A.A.Milne
Ann
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Posted by Joan, too on October 20, 1996 at 23:08:19:
: Janet:
: Nevertheless, sometimes I sensed that Jane and her father tended to tease Lizzy about how much she despised Darcy. Her espoused detest for him was almost a case of her "protesting too much". She may have been biding her time until she knew for sure how it would all work out, but she did confide in Jane enough that I don't see how it could have been such a surprise. After all, Charlotte was able to see through the smoke, as did the Gardiners.
___________________
She did not - could not - confide all to Jane after discovering Darcy's role in separating Bingley from her. She felt that it would only cause Jane more pain to hear about that, and she could not "tell all" about Darcy without going into the Bingley thing - and now that I think of it, if Darcy had made his second proposal at Lambton, perhaps Lizzie would have felt disloyal to Jane if she accepted him. How could she be happy at the prospect of marying the person whom she knew to be responsible for ending Jane's hopes of happiness? Lydia's escapade appears to have been fortunately rather than unfortunately timed! :-)
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
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