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Posted by Anne on October 20, 1996 at 16:16:53:
This thought skips between weeks and works on a thread gone by.
Lizzy tells Jane:
"There are few people whom I really love, and still fewer of whom
I think well."
Therefore, some of the people she loves she does not think well of
(I would imagine her mother and younger sisters). Later (Chap 42
in my book) JA says that Elizabeth had never been blind to the impropriety
of her father's behaviour as a husband. She had always seen it
with pain; but respecting his abilities, and grateful for his
affectionate treatment of herself, she endeavoured to forget what
she could not overlook, and to banish from her thoughts that
continual breach of conjugal obligation and decorum which, in
exposing his wife to the contempt of her own children, was so highly
reprehensible...
Therefore, when talking to her father after accepting Mr. Darcy -
and Lizzy says that 'he is the best man I have ever known' she
is probably being very truthful. I think that Mr. Bennet knows
that Lizzy loves him but he must realize that he has not been a
very good father and remarks that he makes about himself show him
to not be illusioned about his own character.
Anne
Posted by Anne on October 20, 1996 at 16:22:41:
I wonder that Lizzy did not pick up on the fact that Darcy has
evidently been discussing her at great length with members of his
family. When she meets Col. Fitzwilliam he indicates that he
has heard a lot about her. And, the indication that the
colonal gives is that the information is not bad. Why would
Darcy being talking so much about this relative stranger if he
was not somewhat interested? Then, at the meeting at Pemberley,
he asks permission to introduce his sister - who has been wanting
to meet her. Once again, he must have been talking well of Lizzy
for this to be so. I don't get the impression that Lizzy picks
up on either of these occasions.
Anne
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anne on October 20, 1996 at 16:28:40:
: : You think maybe he is also trying to find out if she would like to be away from the obnoxious members of the family?
:
: ___________________
: Oh yes, definately. I don't imagine Lizzy pining away for her family once she is at Pemberly and Jane and Bingley have taken up residence nearby.
___________________
Yes, the book mentions that one of the reasons that she went to see Charlotte was:
... and as, with such a mother and such uncompanionable sisters, home could not be faultless...
I think that she will miss her father but Jane would have been the greater loss and she moved nearer Lizzy to get away from her mother.
Anne
Follow Ups:
Posted by pamela on October 20, 1996 at 16:31:19:
: Dear old (and new) friends -
: I have returned from my week of seabathing -- actually just walked
: a lot on the beach and gathered shells. I spent the 'hot' part of
: the day reading and watching videos. I was able to see Northanger
: Abbey, Mansfield Park, P&P1 and Jane Eyre as well as P&P2 a couple
: of times. (I did throw in a more contemporary film -- 1995's Sabrina)
: After seeing Northanger Abbey I was determined to read the book as
: I *knew* that Jane Austen would never have written such a story!!
: It was such a gothic type movie. In reading the book I found that
: JA's story was what seemed to be the sub-plot of the movie whereas
: the "novel" was less than a sub-plot in the book.
: I enjoyed MP and am finding it quite faithful to the book.
: I did enjoy P&P1 though Darcy could have been made out of wood.
: As someone mentioned before, there is nothing in the movie to show
: why Lizzy's opinion of him changed. He was so wooden, you saw none
: of the inner struggle or love. As much as I loved the Gardiners in
: P&P2, I felt that the actors in P&P1 were more the way I pictured
: them from the book. The girls did look enough alike to be sisters -
: in fact several times I got Lizzy and Kitty mixed up.
: Enough rambling -- it's good to be back. A week away was enough -
: logging on to catchup was my first task.
: Anne
___________________
Now that's my idea of a vacation....a Jane Austen movie festival! Would be interested to know where you found all of these movies. They don't have much at the local blockbuster and I hate to buy them unless they're really good.
Glad you had a nice vacation.
Pamela
Follow Ups:
Posted by Janet on October 20, 1996 at 16:37:39:
: ___________________
: When i first saw P&P2, even though I read the book before, I could imagine how someone might be captivated by Wickham: he is goodlooking, and as they say, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and while he might not be as handsome as Darcy, since his manners are superior, he will 'become handsomer & handsomer' because of his manner. Also, I think Lukis showed something Austen calls 'softness of manner' perfectly: if you know this is deceptive, you see (like Lizzy later) enough in it to disgust and weary, but at first it might be quite attractive: especially if one is not handsome enough to tempt a handsome, rich, and SINGLE gentleman form Derbyshire.
: Marsha
__________
Exactly. Lizzy is flattered that at last someone not repulsive is paying her complements in return. She is also so put off by the seemingly offensive and unattainable Darcy to see that he is actually attracted to her, and she continues to 'willfully misunderstand" his intentions and feelings toward her, even after she begins to understand more of his true nature after the letter. She may be motivated by at first the challenge of getting through to him, and later after she rejects his proposal, to change him for the better until by his own admission, she teaches him how to "please a woman who deserves to be pleased".
_________
Posted by Joan, too on October 20, 1996 at 16:38:48:
: : Linda:
: : I am puzzled by what Mr. Darcy says to Elizabeth about Longbourn during their conversation about Charlotte being settled an easy distance from her family.
In the book he says: "You cannot have a right to such a very strong local attachment. You cannot have been always at Longbourn."
In P&P2, he says: "You would not wish to be always near Longbourn I think."
Could he be trying to determine how she would feel about living at Pemberley since it is not an easy distance from her family??
___________________
: Cheryl:
: I think he is trying to feel her out (if you'll excuse the expression) about if she would be able to be happy living far from her family. He believes so because who would not want to live away from such a family? I think this also applies to the passage in the book "you cannot have been always at Longbourn." He cannot imagine that someone as bright, well mannered, and pleasant could have been raised soley at Longbourn among those rude, uncouth, ill-bred people. Surely she must have spent some of her time amongst other, more reputable people!
___________________
: Amy:
: You think maybe he is also trying to find out if she would like to be away from the obnoxious members of the family?
___________________
I think that he is responding with his own assumptions based upon his "study" of Lizzie "from afar". He has built up a picture of Lizzie based on his own assumptions just as she has done with him. He perceives her as being much more genteel (and "accomplished") than the rest of her family and neighborhood, so assumes that she must have benefitted from spending time in a better level of society than he finds in Hertfordshire. In staring at her at every opportunity, he has probably observed (as we have) how mortifying she finds the behavior of most of her family, and supposes that she would therefore be eager to settle far enough from her family that frequent contact would be impractical.
Because of his preoccupation with her, these comments about her occasionally leak out into his conversation, and when they do, he almost invariably immediately retreats to an impersonal level of conversation - if not an actual physical retreat - leaving Lizzie in puzzlement as to what he might have meant by what he said. She, being convinced by her own prejudices that he dislikes her as much as she does him, cannot imagine that he meant them in any kind of complimentary way.
The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers." Lizzie actually appears quite outgoing and seems to enjoy meeting new people and interacting with them, so it's hard to find any evidence that Darcy would have been able to observe that would lead him to decide that Lizzie would have trouble performing to strangers - unless he meant specifically "performing" on the pianoforte, which seems to be a poor point of comparison for "we neither of us".
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anne on October 20, 1996 at 16:41:38:
: Now that's my idea of a vacation....a Jane Austen movie festival! Would be interested to know where you found all of these movies. They don't have much at the local blockbuster and I hate to buy them unless they're really good.
: Glad you had a nice vacation.
: Pamela
___________________
I bought all of them since I couldn't find them to rent.
Of all of them, I think that Northanger Abbey would be the
least favorite and one that I might not watch again. I
believe I shall watch Mansfield Park again once I have
finished the book. I ordered them from Critics' Choice
Video (800-367-7765).
I tend to buy videos a lot because when I want to watch a
video, I want to watch it now and not have to go to
the video store and hope that they have it. Also, I love to
rewatch videos so it is cost effective for me to buy them. I also lend them to friends and co-workers to watch.
Anne
Posted by Janet on October 20, 1996 at 16:46:14:
: ___________________
: When i first saw P&P2, even though I read the book before, I could imagine how someone might be captivated by Wickham: he is goodlooking, and as they say, the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and while he might not be as handsome as Darcy, since his manners are superior, he will 'become handsomer & handsomer' because of his manner. Also, I think Lukis showed something Austen calls 'softness of manner' perfectly: if you know this is deceptive, you see (like Lizzy later) enough in it to disgust and weary, but at first it might be quite attractive: especially if one is not handsome enough to tempt a handsome, rich, and SINGLE gentleman form Derbyshire.
: Marsha
_________
Another thought: At first, Lizzy goes the way of her younger ill-mannered sisters who go after the less desireable officer types, in contrast to Jane who is destined for a better match with an upper class gentleman. Perhaps Lizzy feels she cannot achieve as good a match as Jane, to whom "the task of increasing the family's fortune will fall". In respect to the opening line about a rich man in need of a wife, Lizzy may not feel she is up to it until the challenge of Darcy is presented to her. Once she wanders onto this higher path, she is more closely aligned with Jane and a division is clearly established between the more genteel, deserving older sisters and the uncouth, undeserving younger ones.
__________
Posted by Claire on October 20, 1996 at 16:50:06:
: Mine is the scene where Darcy comes out of the stream near his home.
: I watch it over and over, again and again. What's yours? Care to chat?
I agree that the scene in which he comes out of the stream is one of the best, but I would have to say that my #1 choice would be the scen in Pemberley when Darcy finally seem to smile.___________________
Posted by Joan, too on October 20, 1996 at 17:05:54:
: Anne:
: I wonder that Lizzy did not pick up on the fact that Darcy has evidently been discussing her at great length with members of his family. When she meets Col. Fitzwilliam he indicates that he has heard a lot about her. And, the indication that the colonal gives is that the information is not bad. Why would Darcy being talking so much about this relative stranger if he was not somewhat interested? Then, at the meeting at Pemberley, he asks permission to introduce his sister - who has been wanting to meet her. Once again, he must have been talking well of Lizzy for this to be so. I don't get the impression that Lizzy picks up on either of these occasions.
___________________
I think that at the time that the Colonel mentions that he has heard much about her, she assumes that what he would have heard would have been less than complimentary, and the the Colonel is just demonstrating good manners by implying otherwise. ("Colonel Fitzwilliam's manners were very much admired at the parsonage.") At this point in time, Lizzie and Darcy have not met at all since the Netherfield Ball, and she does not consider it possible that he would have anything good to say about her.
It's a different story, though, when he asks to introduce his sister to her. Before this happens, she has had "the letter" from Darcy, and had her own prejudices erased, and furthermore, has just been exposed (by her tour of Pemberley) to a most favorable impression of Darcy, causing her opinion of him to begin moving toward the favorable. Then, upon their accidental meeting, she he treats her with what she feels is undeserved civility. (In a conversation with Darcy that unfortunately was not included in the fime she says "Your surprise could not be greater than mine in being noticed by you. My conscience told me that I deserved no extraordinary politeness, and I confess that I did not expect to receive more than my due." So when he wants introduce her to his sister, she is quite aware of the significance of such a request, and begins to wonder whether it is posible that after the way that she treated him, he might still be in love with her.
In fact, the opposite ways in which she interprets these two conversations points out how much our own prejudices can influence how we interpret the words/actions of others, and how negative prejudices can blind us to the truth.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Grace on October 20, 1996 at 17:09:16:
: : or
: : : he is the mysterious patient. Does anyone know how important is his role.
: : : Just wondering Donna,
: : ___________________
: :
: Have a feeling he must be the patient.
: : Amy
:
: ___________________
:
: I read somewhere that he plays a pilot called Clifton.
: I am reading the book right now, but I haven't worked out yet if Clifton is actually also the burnt patient.
:
: Hilary
___________________
: I haven't read or even seen this book. Off to the library tomorrow to get it. I know I'll enjoy the movie much more if I am familiar with the story.
Posted by kathleen on October 20, 1996 at 17:49:08:
: The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers." Lizzie actually appears quite outgoing and seems to enjoy meeting new people and interacting with them, so it's hard to find any evidence that Darcy would have been able to observe that would lead him to decide that Lizzie would have trouble performing to strangers - unless he meant specifically "performing" on the pianoforte, which seems to be a poor point of comparison for "we neither of us".
: Joan, too
___________________
Didn't the Mysterious H. C. have a link on this topic some while back?
I used to think that Darcy meant that Elizabeth made friends easily, and therefore didn't have to "perform" to strangers, while he simply didn't "perform" unless he knew (and liked?) the people he was with.
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 20, 1996 at 17:51:20:
Fitzwilliam's comment about having heard much of her is in
P&P2 and not in the book. The only thing Lizzy has to work
with on the first meeting in Kent is the fact that Darcy
brought Fitz. to see her so soon after their arrival at
Rosings.
Ann
Posted by kathleen on October 20, 1996 at 17:53:13:
: : Would that have applied to female servants as well, do you think? I seem to remember that Lady C's maid (or whatever)
: : was in the carriage when Lady C left Longbourn. [This was in the book; in the movie Anne De Bourgh was in the carriage.]
: : Maybe it depended on the rank of the servant as well as the rank of the boss, or on the fact that this was her ladyship's carriage
: : and not post.
: : kathleen
:
: ___________________
: For some reason, I think this woman was Anne's governess that lived with them. (Mrs. Jennings?)
: Stefanie
___________________
I had to go back to the book for this one. When Lady C and Elizabeth go outside for a talk, Elizabeth sees Lady C's waiting-woman in the carriage. What is that job, a maid superior or something?
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Arnessa on October 20, 1996 at 17:53:30:
_______________
:
: I think he is trying to feel her out (if you'll excuse the expression) about if she would be able to be happy living far from her family. He believes so because who would not want to live away from such a family? I think this also applies to the passage in the book "you cannot have been always at Longbourn." He cannot imagine that someone as bright, well mannered, and pleasant could have been raised soley at Longbourn among those rude, uncouth, ill-bred people. Surely she must have spent some of her time amongst other, more reputable people!
: Cheryl
___________________
I agree with all that, but I think it's also important to recognize the subtle slight that the statement implies. Lizzy may not have grown up in the best of society, but still it's where she's from. And to say that she's better than all her family and friends might flatter her vanity a bit, but upon reflection a loyal, warm-hearted girl like Lizzy probably wouldn't take too kindly to someone (she hardly knows!) putting down the people she's closest to and suggesting that she would prefer to be far, far away from them.
Maybe Darcy realized his faux pas and that's why Jane tells us "the gentleman experienced some change of feeling."
-Arnessa
Posted by kathleen on October 20, 1996 at 18:00:46:
Elizabeth cannot believe that Charlotte would accept Mr. Collins' proposal. In fact she is quite rude to Charlotte when told about it. (Almost as rude as Lydia and Mrs. B are when Sir William announces it to the family.)
Charlotte, on the other hand, is certain that Eliza would change her opinion of Mr. Darcy "if she could suppose him to be in her power."
These are friends who do not know each other on this topic. In fact, Lizzie & Jane are better friends, as well as being loving sisters. (Which is why Lizzie turns to Jane after Charlotte has accepted Mr. C's proposal.)
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by kathleen on October 20, 1996 at 18:09:35:
The case for pity: . . . . She has a most attentive neighbor in Lady Catherine. Too attentive, by far, giving endless unsolicited advice as to Charlotte's cows and poultry, the size of her joints of meat, in short "nothing was beneath this great Lady's attention."
: Cheryl
___________________
I suspect that Charlotte would not want pity. She went into the marriage w/ her eyes open, and she is not romantic.
On another "wired beauty and aggressive ducks" cite, what is Charlotte saying when Elizabeth stays at Hunsford with her headache -- it sounds like she offers to stay home with her friend and put up with "Old Lady Catherine's" anger. I know that such a comment would give her husband a heart attack, so I assume that she is saying something else -- what?
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 20, 1996 at 18:09:47:
I had to go back to the book for this one. When Lady C and Elizabeth go outside for a talk, Elizabeth sees Lady C's waiting-woman in the carriage. What is that job, a maid superior or something?
: kathleen
___________________
Was not waiting woman one of the few options for genteel women without income who did not manage to find a husband? If they were able to obtain the "condescention" of some wealthy gentlewoman they could be engaged as a "companion" to said gentlewoman with a status above that of the serving maids, but but below that of an actual member of the family. Such positions probably involved quite a bit of boot-licking, since one's position lasted only so long as one's patroness found one's company agreeable.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by kathleen on October 20, 1996 at 18:14:02:
: I had to go back to the book for this one. When Lady C and Elizabeth go outside for a talk, Elizabeth sees Lady C's waiting-woman in the carriage. What is that job, a maid superior or something?
: : kathleen
:
: ___________________
: Was not waiting woman one of the few options for genteel women without income who did not manage to find a husband? If they were able to obtain the "condescention" of some wealthy gentlewoman they could be engaged as a "companion" to said gentlewoman with a status above that of the serving maids, but but below that of an actual member of the family. Such positions probably involved quite a bit of boot-licking, since one's position lasted only so long as one's patroness found one's company agreeable.
: Joan, too
___________________
Ah, now I see. Another toady for her ladyship -- she couldn't get enough. (Must have had awfully clean boots, though.)
kathleen
Posted by Ann on October 20, 1996 at 18:18:15:
: The comment made by Darcy that I find myself ambiguous about interpreting is "We neither of us perform to strangers." Lizzie actually appears quite outgoing and seems to enjoy meeting new people and interacting with them, so it's hard to find any evidence that Darcy would have been able to observe that would lead him to decide that Lizzie would have trouble performing to strangers - unless he meant specifically "performing" on the pianoforte, which seems to be a poor point of comparison for "we neither of us".
: Joan, too
I have always seen the comment "We neither of us perform for
strangers," as the flip side of Lizzy's comment "We are each
of an unsocial, taciturn disposition, unwilling to speak,
unless we expect to day something that will amaze the whole
room..." Both statements are half true, and half false. The
speaker in each is fully aware that they are only half true.
Of course there is one great difference, Lizzy is not so
subtly insulting him in her statement, and Darcy is being
self deprecating in his. She criticises him openly; he could
never bring himself to critcize her openly, so he must
instead make himself the target.
I think in making his comment Darcy is attempting to play at
her game: "I have had the pleasure of your aquaintance long
enough to know that you find great enjoyment in occasionally
professing opinions which in fact are not your own." He is
trying to rise to the same level of playfulness that she
displays; however, he is inexperienced at joking in this
manner, and what he says ends up coming out a bit awkwardly.
Ann
Follow Ups:
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