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Posted by Ann on October 19, 1996 at 19:50:42:
:
: . If anyone has the film handy, they might want to observe more closely any reactions he may have to Mary prior to the scene of his "consolation visit."
:
:
: ___________________
:
:
: During the dance at Netherfield (while Darcy and Elizabeth are dancing together), Mary and Mr. C are in the background having what looks to be an enjoyable conversation.
: Anne
___________________
Also watch Mary during dinner at Longbourne. She is
seriously "making eyes" at Mr. Collins, while he is doing
the same towards Jane.
Ann
Posted by Joan, too on October 19, 1996 at 19:56:44:
: Lady C indicates that she does not like the idea of two young ladies traveling alone on the post and Lizzy says that
: her uncle will be providing a manservant (though I don't know what became of him).
: Anne
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As a servant I believe that he would have been riding up front with the driver rather than inside the carriage with the passengers of quality.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 19, 1996 at 20:04:02:
: Anne...
: Speaking of dumb remarks -- my paperback P&P that I bought to write in has (above the title) the comment: Mom's fishing for husbands -- But the girls are hunting for love... The comments on the back are worse. Somehow I don't think P&P needs this little bit of modernized hoopla.
___________________
I agree, however, Birtwhistle and Davies (in "The Making") said that they used exactly this approach to interest ITV (to whom they had initially "pitched" the film) in making it.
Joan, too
Posted by Grace on October 19, 1996 at 20:04:22:
: I believe Lizzy when she says she doesn't begin to like Darcy until she sees him on his own territory - Pemberley - and sees the change that has come over him as a result of her rejection.
: : : : MaryH
:
She may have been more serious than she lets on when she tells Jane that she first realized she loved him upon seeing his lovely grounds at Pemberly.
: : _________
:
: ___________________
:
At Pemberley, hearing the housekeeper talk about him and his friendly attitude did show her a side of him that she had never seen.
: Anne
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: I have always felt that, if you are able to briefly put aside the notion that money would buy happiness in Darcy's case,it is possible to view him as a character deserving of our sympathy.Here is a man who loses his mother when he is very young (perhaps as young as twelve, if his mother died in childbirth). In his early twenties, he also loses a father he looked up to, and must take on the overwhelming responsibility of raising his sister, managing vast family holdings and ensuring the welfare of tenants and servants alike. He is clearly someone who takes these duties very seriously. Darcy would have been especially guilt ridden over the Georgiana/Wickham mess because he would see it as evidence that he had not taken proper care of her.
: Darcy, perhaps because he lacked a mother's influence, is totally without social graces. He is awkward and gives offense wherever he goes. (I would argue that he is also very shy.) I find it interesting that he spends so much time with the Bingleys - typical of shy people, who tend not to branch out much from the known group and are attracted to those who possess the qualities they lack. Interesting also that these friends are loners in the world: their parents have also passed away.
Pemberley could not be much of a home to Darcy, judging from how much time he spends away from it. It must be a lonely place, unless he fills it with friends like the Bingleys.
Think of the pressure Darcy would have been under from family and friends to do his duty and marry. (Not to mention the constant pressure from Caroline). Darcy was used to constantly having mothers throwing their daughters at him and had developed a habit of putting up barriers. He was an intelligent man, and recognized that many people sought him out only because of his wealth. When he did want to seek someone's favor, he did not have a clue how to do it.
Then there is his dreadful proposal - who could not feel sorry for him after that?
Follow Ups:
Posted by Stefanie on October 19, 1996 at 20:11:00:
: Sorry I spelled your name wrong. I will try to get it right in the future.
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Don't worry about. I think my name was spelled wrong on my high school diploma.
Stefanie
Posted by Joan, too on October 19, 1996 at 20:24:49:
Many of those so immature as to choose to stir up trouble in an online discussion venue are deliberately doing what is know as "trolling" - that is, putting up an intentionally inflamatory posting for the "fun" of reading the resulting distressed reactions.
The most effective way of dealing with these types is to completely ignore them. While this is often very difficult to do, it does effectively squelch these vandals, since they will soon leave if they get no nibbles on thieir "line". So I urge that we regulars resolve to demonstrate forbearance, and give no recognition of any kind to any future attempts to bait us with these obnoxious postings.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by kathleen on October 19, 1996 at 20:36:00:
: : I agree that the word you heard is "paltry". But I don't know how yuou catch these things. After watching P&P 16 times (on tape) I am still mesmerized throughout the entire movie.
:
: ___________________
: [Perhaps 16 times is not enough? ;-) ]
: Joan, too
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Ahhh. Indeed, once was probably too much for now 16 times is not nearly enough!
I reread my favorite passages and rewatch them as well.
kathleen
Posted by kathleen on October 19, 1996 at 20:42:41:
: : Lady C indicates that she does not like the idea of two young ladies traveling alone on the post and Lizzy says that
: : her uncle will be providing a manservant (though I don't know what became of him).
: : Anne
:
: ___________________
: As a servant I believe that he would have been riding up front with the driver rather than inside the carriage with the passengers of quality.
: Joan, too
___________________
Would that have applied to female servants as well, do you think? I seem to remember that Lady C's maid (or whatever)
was in the carriage when Lady C left Longbourn. [This was in the book; in the movie Anne De Bourgh was in the carriage.]
Maybe it depended on the rank of the servant as well as the rank of the boss, or on the fact that this was her ladyship's carriage
and not post.
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on October 19, 1996 at 20:46:03:
Joan,
You are quite right, of course, and as usual. Tell me though, am I naïve or is it sometimes hard to tell very clever trollers from young newbies -- or even from some non native English speakers.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Janet on October 19, 1996 at 20:48:59:
: Many of those so immature as to choose to stir up trouble in an online discussion venue are deliberately doing what is know as "trolling" - that is, putting up an intentionally inflamatory posting for the "fun" of reading the resulting distressed reactions.
: The most effective way of dealing with these types is to completely ignore them. While this is often very difficult to do, it does effectively squelch these vandals, since they will soon leave if they get no nibbles on thieir "line". So I urge that we regulars resolve to demonstrate forbearance, and give no recognition of any kind to any future attempts to bait us with these obnoxious postings.
: Joan, too
_________
"Yes! Go, go! I would not wish you back again."
__________
Posted by Joan, too on October 19, 1996 at 20:55:01:
: : Joan, too
: : As a servant I believe that he would have been riding up front with the driver rather than inside the carriage with the passengers of quality.
___________________
: kathleen:
: Would that have applied to female servants as well, do you think? I seem to remember that Lady C's maid (or whatever) was in the carriage when Lady C left Longbourn. [This was in the book; in the movie Anne De Bourgh was in the carriage.] Maybe it depended on the rank of the servant as well as the rank of the boss, or on the fact that this was her ladyship's carriage and not post.
___________________
While I confess I have no expertise whatsoever on this subject, I do not recall ever seeing a representation of a maidservant sitting outside of a carriage with the driver. Perhaps a lady's personal maid was expected to sit inside with her employer so as to be able to wait on her while en route, as well. In any case, I rather doubt that a lady's maid would have been made to ride outside exposed to the elements. Perhaps the Mysterious H.C. has a resource in this regard?
Joan, too
Posted by Joan, too on October 19, 1996 at 21:15:37:
: Amy:
: You are quite right, of course, and as usual. Tell me though, am I naïve or is it sometimes hard to tell very clever trollers from young newbies -- or even from some non native English speakers.
___________________
This can, of course happen, and when it does, and people respond emotionally, there is a risk of offending someone whose intentions were of the best. Which is another reason for exerting forbearance at first. Young posters in particular tend to be somewhat impetuous, and those writing in a language other than their "native" tongue can accidentally "offend" without having the intention to do so. However, if their intent is sincere, their subsequent posts will not be uniformly unpleasant, and any inappropriate "behavior" will easily be modified by example.
Joan, too
Posted by Karen on October 19, 1996 at 21:21:50:
: Mine is the scene where Darcy comes out of the stream near his home.
: I watch it over and over, again and again. What's yours? Care to chat?
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I have to agree with Kathleen. My tape will soon be worn out on the "look scene" at Pemberly and the second proposal. A close second is when Lizzy and Darcy met at Pemberly and when Darcy comes running out of Pemberly after he has changed from his swim. I am happy to find this cite because I am hopelessly addicted to this show.
Posted by Arnessa on October 19, 1996 at 21:27:02:
: Anyone else having trouble envisioning Colin Firth in A Thousand Acres? I know he will pull it off admirably, but will we be able to stand it? Darcy, wearing a John Deere hat, at the hog roast? Worse still, Darcy in a pickup truck at the dump?
: I can just see how this all came about....Michelle Pfeiffer and Jessica Lange watching P&P2 over and over and over.....calling each other in the middle of the night: We're producing this thousand acres thing, we can have Darcy in it if we want to......we'll tell people he picked up the accent in Canada.
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And really, can you blame them? If any of us had such a ready excuse to seek out Colin Firth, would we hesitate? And I hope it's not sooooo bad. I think he may be able to pull off an American accent. He lived in St. Louis for a while as a youth, no?
But then again.... I just hope the story is good. The only Hollywood movie I've seen him in was "Playmaker." It was on HBO a while back. I got HBO just to see that movie after reading on the Firth page about the broadcast. And that was really BAD. It was worse than bad. It was almost painful to watch, to see someone with so much talent wasting it on such drivel! Even the nice shots of his bum couldn't make me feel better. But I guess an actor has to make money and all. Oh, and I think he did a passable American accent in that film.
-Arnessa.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Karen on October 19, 1996 at 21:54:39:
: I am profiling Colin Firth (P&P's "Mr.Darcy") for a "Magazine
: Writing" course (and for possible publication). To this end,
: I am seeking quotes regarding Colin Firth and/or his portrayal
: of Mr.Darcy (I am trying to convey "public opinion" about
: Mr.Firth). I would appreciate any opinions - that you might post
: in response to this - regarding Mr. Firth. Thank you, Allison
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Colin Firth's portrayal of Mr. Darcy was simply excellent. He was able to bring both intelligence, haughtiness and compassion to the role. The Darcy's in the 1940s and 1980s just were not engaging and compelling. Mr. Firth's Darcy changed so dramatically I really wanted him to win Elizabeth's heart.
Karen
Posted by Janet on October 19, 1996 at 22:19:01:
: With the issue of his "arrogance, [his] conceit, and [his]
: selfish distain for the feelings of others" resolved, with
: the help of Mrs. Reynolds, to Elizabeth's satisfaction, the
: only thing left to resolve was her sister's situation. I
: believe Bingley's return to Netherfield must have been, in
: part, orchestrated by Darcy. I imagine that, when they were
: discussing where they should go shooting in the autumn,
: Darcy said something like: "we certainly had good sport last
: year ;-)." Which would have been a large enough opening for
: Bingley to suggest that they try Netherfield again, to which
: Darcy would of course have either no disinclination or only
: a token objection.
: Thus Elizabeth's last objection to Darcy was removed (with
: her added gratitude from what he did for Lydia), and
: they could live happily ever after (despite what some of the
: sequels would have us believe.) So, I believe that Darcy and
: Elizabeth owe their everlasting happiness in large part to
: Mrs. Reynolds.
: Ann
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I do believe that Darcy made a checklist of his faults to which Lizzy had objected during her rejection of him and his ungentleman-like proposal. Once he recovered from the pangs of rejection and realized that he could not live without her, he resolved to correct himself on these points in order to change her opinion of him in hopes that she would eventually accept him. He must have also realized that indeed she was right that his behaviour was not befitting a gentleman. He made a concerted effort to demonstrate this metamorphosis when he was fortunate enough to bump into her at his very home.
It was clear that Darcy had undergone a transformation in his behaviour towards Lizzy and her relations when they met at Pemberly. He made concerted efforts to greet her properly, inquire about her family (twice), show courtesy to the Gardiners (from Cheapside), invite her to meet his sister, and actually engage her in gentleman-like conversation. But this was all after she saw his beautiful grounds at Pemberly, and yes, after she read his letter and began to reconsider him.
By the way, did anyone notice that before the letter, Darcy always rode a dark horse, in contrast to Bingley's white. After Darcy's transformation, he returned to Pemberly for his chance meeting with Lizzy on a white horse for the first time, and again the morning after the evening with her there, on his quest to the inn where I believe he intended to propose. When he returned to Longbourn with Bingley he resorted to the dark horse in contrast to what had to be white for Bingley. (I guess they could not both have ridden white?)
In regard to the Wickham scandal, Lizzy was unable to discern that Darcy felt he was to blame for Lydia falling prey to him and had indeed resolved to assist in the matter before he quit the inn. As usual, she misinterpreted his stern departure for rejection, when in fact his mind was filled with the task at hand. While it may have eased her mind for him to reassure her that he would attempt to help find Wickham, etc., I don't think he wanted her to know of his hand in the matter. The theory may be that he did not want her to be beholden to him for this; he wanted her to love him for himself, not what he could do for her. Plus, there is the matter of pride - in the good sense of the word.
I do think Darcy maneuvered to return Bingley to Netherfield where he could carefully reevaluate Jane's affections for him. According to the book, Darcy was too busy studying Jane's reaction to Bingley to pay much attention to Lizzy during their visit to Longbourn.
As for whether Darcy was able to maintain his behaviour modification after marriage would remain to be seen. With many, efforts to please before marriage fall short once the prize is won. With Lizzy to tease, goad and prod him perhaps he would not revert to his previous habits. Yet it took all his life to develop his facade, and only from the time of his rejection in April to their meeting at Pemberly in July to transform himself.
Is it truly possible to change oneself permanently for the better, for the sake of love?
__________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on October 19, 1996 at 22:42:52:
: Janet:
: Is it truly possible to change oneself permanently for the better, for the sake of love?
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Actually, I'm convinced that Darcy had made up his mind to improve himself whether or not he ever saw Lizzie again. I believe that the "good" part of his pride would have made him want to overcome his faults, once perceived, for their own sake, not just to please some other person.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on October 19, 1996 at 22:47:01:
: We have to assume that he takes the same view as Lizzie when it comes to fulfilment in marriage, don't we?
: : : No, not at all in the first month of their acquaintance. I suspect he had been taugth to believe every woman in England
: : : - the royal family excluded - would welcome his adresses. At
: : : Netherfield he says something about chanses of marrying well
: : : that sounds quite buisnesslike to me. Ann2
: Yes, I'm sure he's been taught, and believes, that he could get anyone, and that he needs to choose 'well' in a family and financial way. But I think Darcy has a real integrity about him, like Lizzie, which even at that early stage would have prevented him from marrying anyone he didn't really care about. I think that our sense of his integrity is one of the main things that holds our interest in Darcy as a character right through the book, and it becomes apparent early on. After all, if he was a truly unfeeling person we would lose interest in him pretty quickly. Hilary
: : : Yes, and his second thoughts that last day at N. when he completly ignores her, shows that he considered it possible that she should have taken his earlier conduct towards her as an encouragement. Ann2
: Thanks, I hadn't made that connection. Hilary
:
: I think he was trying to be somewhat amenable at this stage.
: : : He was still struggling in vain I suppose, but he should have saluted her beeing wellmannered and all. But overtook by confusion...? Ann2
: Yes, I think so. But maybe a little heavy-handed. A bit more hesitant speech could have surficed maybe. Hilary
: : :
: : : :
: : : : The other meeting in the garden that I liked but didn't make it into the film, was the one at Netherfield where the Bingly sisters try to snub Lizzie by squashing her off the path. They try to include Darcy in the snub, he tries to correct it, but Lizzie skips away from them all.
: : : : Hilary
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Yes , I have read about the symbolic meaning of the road not beeing wide enough to give room for Lizzy and she leaves them. And at Pemberley in the book, where Darcy approaches them for the second time she has recently crossed a bridge and then they are able to meet and walk side by side. Donīt remember the datails.
: : : Ann2
:
: Yes, I've read the first of those. Have you read the stuff about the symbolizm of Pemberly too? Pemberly being the symbol of the correct outlook on life, way of living, relationship with your community, and managing your estates well (hence all the good fruits at Darcy's table). And Darcy as a kind of personification of all this?
: Hilary
: : ___________________
: ... That is why he sort of smirks at her "on foot",he really thought it was amusing, but then she reminds him how she doesn't like him.
: Yes , I agree, and as well he maybe feels that he shouldn't approve. H.
: ... Instead she is insulted again and comes back with I don't care what you think attitude, "I 've come to inquireabout my sister.Would you please take me to her". He saw her attitude and didn't say anything else.
: And, in fact, she walks very briskly ahead of him, so he doesn't have much chance to escort her. H.
: I think it we must go back to the dance at Meryton I think he might know now that she as overheard what he said because he is always trying to be nice to her but she won't let him ...
: I don't think he knows, he's is just attracted to her. H.
:
: ....because she is afraid she might fall in love with a rich man
: Why would this bother Lizzie? Wouldn't that be her wish?
:
: Enjoyed all your comments Ann2 and Donna, thanks.
: Hilary.
___________________
Yes, she would like to marry a rich man. She would be so weak as to be in some danger.
ciao Donna
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