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Posted by Donna on October 16, 1996 at 00:14:46:
: : We understand wanting wealth in the family but this woman is obsessed!
: Mrs. Bennet drives me nuts, too. I have very little time for her.
: But for another perspective, here are a few bits from Fay Weldon's book "Letters to Alice on first reading JA":
: In JA's time you had to be able to afford to marry (dowry).'For this reason, and a variety of others, only 30% of women married'. Women 'lived well only by their husbands' favour'. The notion of marrying for love was quite new. The 'sense of sexual sin ran high: the fear of pregnancy was great - you might well estimate that half the nations women remained virgins all their lives'. (The average age of puberty was 18-20; marriage 25-28.)
: 'So to marry was a great prize. It was a woman's aim. No wonder JA's heroines were so absorbed by the matter. It is the stuff of our women's magazines but it was the stuff of their life, their very existence. No wonder Mrs. B, driven half-mad by anxiety for her 5 unmarried daughters, knowing they would be unprovided for when her husband died, as indeed would she, made a fool of herself in public, husband hunting on her girls' behalf. Politeness warred, as always, with desperation. Enough to give anyone the vapours!'
: 'Women survived ..by being pleasing and charming..or having a good,strong working back...' Writing and governessing were less usual possibilities.
: Once you were married property and children belonged to your husband. 'If the choice at child birth was between the mother or child, the mother was the one to go.' 'Between 1650 and 1850 there were only 250 divorces in England'. Although there were exceptions 'you put up with the sex life you had, and were not on the whole ..expected to enjoy it...Contraception was both wicked and illegal...Abstinence was the decent person's protection against pregnancy'
: 'The fact that there were 70,000 prostitutes in London in 1801 out of a female population of some 475,000 indicates that your husband at least would not be virginal on marriage. He would quite possibly be diseased. VD was common, and often nastily fatal.' (Lets exempt Darcy from these ones, what do you say?)
: You were 'likely to carry 1 child successfully to term every 2 years until menopause... 50%of all babies would die before they were 2... Every death would be the same misery it is today'
: 'Your own chances of dying in childbirth were not negligible and increased with every pregnancy. After 15 pregnancies (which meant something like 6 babies brought to term and safely delivered) your chances of dying were (Marie Stopes later claimed) one in two. Mrs. B, giving birth to Mary, must have been worried indeed. Her nerves were bad: she was considered ridiculous, poor thing, for saying so. (I take a very tender view of Mrs. b, more tender than her creator does. But I am looking at a society from the outside in, not the inside out.)'
: Depressing stuff really - the 1990's aren't so bad huh? I don't know how much of this tenderness for Mrs. B came out in Weldon's P&P1. I hadn't read this account then, and I didn't care much for the production anyway.
This is why I didn't have much pitty for Mr. B.,because JA
lost I think 2 or 3 sister -in-law during child birth.
I have The Illustrated Letters of Jane Austen by Penelope
Hughes-Hallett it was pub. in hardcover as MY DEAR CASSANDRA; THE LETTERS OF JANE AUSTEN just happen upon this book in a bookstore. JA had a very good outlook toward her life,but it is sad so many died so young.
Posted by Raphael on October 16, 1996 at 00:18:12:
: We talked about this a little when the board first went up. Maybe we ought to try to do a graphical version of the connections in sort of an nth degree of seperations way.
It should be fun. I'd love to ferret out such info. We might be surprised at what we see. Just say the word ...
I liked Middlemarch, though I must admit it was not so very good as P&P2. Though, one must ask, has anything ever been as good? I thought not.
I believe you were referring to Sir John Middleton, played by the incomparable Robert Hardy of All Creatures Great and Small fame (as well as gobs more)?
Posted by Raphael on October 16, 1996 at 00:25:59:
I have been seeking the teleplay to little success.
A general distress call: if there are any individuals frequenting the list from the U.K., can you tell me if there are any script warehouses which pirate B.B.C. material there? That would be our best chances of finding the screenplay, for it is highly unlikely that it would ever be published at this point. My searches in U.S. businesses has been fruitless. They just don't deal with British stuff generally.
Posted by Raphael on October 16, 1996 at 00:33:18:
I cringe at the thought of unleashing Mr. Beveridge's Maggot upon
the unsuspecting world once again -- for I am sure it has been dis-
cussed with much frequency in the past -- but I am resolved to bear my
curiosity no longer.
I located the piece in a modern edition of Playford's English
Dancing-Master, which is, alas, only the melody. What I have been
searching for is the *arrangement* which was used in P&P2. Does any-
one know which arrangement this was? It is not necessary if it has been
reprinted in a modern edition, because I can obtain photocopies of the
original manuscript sources with relative ease.
Many of the tunes in Playford's Dancing-master were set countless
times over the ensuing centuries in every conceivable instrumental form,
but surprisingly, Mr. Beveridge's Maggot is one of the more scarce ones,
so far as I can tell.
I noticed that the credits for McGrath's Emma listed the edition of
Beveridge's Maggot, but I didn't catch it in time! Was it one of the
releases of the "Lady's Collection of Ayres" anthology (I think the date
was 1728)? Though it is entirely possible this is not the same setting.
Any and all help will be quickly responded to with praise and adulation.
Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on October 16, 1996 at 00:40:50:
: It has been pointed out that a father could not disinherit his
: eldest son.
ONLY if there's an entail.
Why then should Mr. Ferrars depend on the will of his mother.
: How can she change the entailment law or fact.
Simply because there isn't any entail in the Ferrars case (if there were, Edward would have already inherited upon the death of his father).
Posted by Kali on October 16, 1996 at 00:42:50:
: : :
: : : : In the last two weeks I have seen all three versions of P&P,
: : : : Two versions of S&S
: : : : Two versions of Emma
: : : : and when I'm not logged on here I'm rereading one of them.
: : : : I can't stop....I'm hopelessly addicted.
: : : : Mich
: : : ___________________
: : : Many of us here have been through the initial stages of the addiction and have progressed to far more serious stages. I would suggest that you now obtain from the video store a copy of the 95 version of "Persuasion" with Amanda Root. While on the first viewing you may find it disagreeably different from A&E P&P (known here as P&P2), keep on and most likely you will have to add it to your growing list of addictions. Frankly, I liked it best the fifth time.
: : : Somewhere on this BB there is a list of symptoms of this addiction. Maybe Amy can tell you where to find it.
: : : Tommye
: : :PS
: : I don't know of a cure. Yet.
: : Tommye
: You are very kind but I already own "Persuasion" with Amanda Root. I have seen it many times and loved it more each time.
: you see the situation is hopeless.
Give it time. Real life soon sets in and you find time to tear yourself away and do other things. I read the book first in the seventh grade - and caught the fever bad. Young people get the worst obsessions. I read the thing over and over, saw the 1940 movie version, and was so nervous about it all that I didn't eat right or sleep well for days. But I'm cured now - for the most part. Even P&P2 didn't alter my eating or sleeping habits.
Posted by Joan, too on October 16, 1996 at 00:46:22:
: I cringe at the thought of unleashing Mr. Beveridge's Maggot upon
: the unsuspecting world once again -- for I am sure it has been dis-
: cussed with much frequency in the past -- but I am resolved to bear my
: curiosity no longer.
: I located the piece in a modern edition of Playford's English
: Dancing-Master, which is, alas, only the melody. What I have been
: searching for is the *arrangement* which was used in P&P2.
Please do not cringe - I, too would be excessively delighted to locate this arrangement. If anyone knows, please do share!
Posted by Ann2 on October 16, 1996 at 01:04:04:
: : : : Latest news form over the pond is that Emma will be screened on ITV (not BBC) some time in November. Script is written by Andrew Davies and produced by Sue Birtwhistle. It will be two hours long and screened as a "film".
: : : ___________________
: : : Oh no. I was aware of everything but the two-hour part. I am bitterly disappointed. Are you absolutely sure. There can be no mistake?
: : : Amy
: : ___________________
: : Amy,
: But which production group is which? If the BBC/A&E version
: is the 6 hour one, is it not being done by
: Davies/Birtwhistle? If not, who is doing it? I assumed that
: BBC/A&E would get the same group together for the 6 hour
: "Emma" as they had for the 6 hour P&P.
This has been my deerest wish for
some time now. Donīt tell me we will only get two hours of the Davies/Birtwhistle Emma! It is too cruel.
Posted by Cheryl on October 16, 1996 at 01:15:24:
: All right Mary, I will grant you that listening to Mrs. Collins fretting about being turned out into the street for a month would be unbearable.
Of course I meant to say Mrs. *Bennet*. Oh dear, you don't suppose there is some kind of Freudian thing going on here!
Posted by Cheryl on October 16, 1996 at 01:21:14:
I take comfort in the line from the last chapter that reads:
"With what delighted pride she afterwards *visited* Mrs. Bingley and *talked* of Mrs. Darcy may be guessed."
This gives me hope that she did not often contribute to the pollution of the shades of Pemberly. Thankfully it is not *too* easy a distance from Longbourn to Pemberly.
Posted by Ann2 on October 16, 1996 at 01:23:54:
: : Maybe we ought to try to do a graphical version of the connections in sort of an nth degree of seperations way.
: It should be fun. I'd love to ferret out such info. .
: I believe you were referring to Sir John Middleton, played by the incomparable Robert Hardy of All Creatures Great and Small fame (as well as gobs more)?
Robert Hardy has always been a favourite of mine. He has got something... and he played
the hateful general Tilney in the BBC Northanger Abbey.
Posted by Cheryl on October 16, 1996 at 01:27:11:
: One more point about wedding attire: anyone know what the sprig of greens are that the women tuck in their bodices? Is this an old version of Something borrowed, something blue? (I don't have the Making Of ...book so excuse my ignorance.)
The evergreens are not tucked in the bodice but thrown much like rice is. This particular sprig simply found its mark, so to speak. You may notice that it is gone when Lizzy and Darcy are in the carriage (another scene take) for THE KISS (or perhaps your mind was more agreeably engaged.)
Posted by Cheryl on October 16, 1996 at 01:34:02:
: Ah, I see -- I will have to watch again to see if I agree -- One thing I did notice after watching P&P2 too many times (Is that possible?) was that Mr. Darcy was not too consistant with which side he dressed to...I'm sorry -- I just couldn't help noticing this.
LOL! I must admit that I noticed this too (and Anna-karin thinks she is the only one with a dirty mind!) and was surprised. I thought men were excessively careful about that sort of thing. Dare we ask any of our resident gentlemen...? No, we dare not, it is too delicate a subject to dwell upon.
Posted by Ian on October 16, 1996 at 03:45:13:
: Well, Ian - all of a sudden, tonight, the link to OJ worked. But the particular links (to graphics?) that you had left earlier have all now expired. How about running them up the flagpole one more time?
: Joan, too
Thanks Joan for your patience and persistence. That's almost the Davey family motto: Courage through Perseverance. But I digress. Here is the image I wanted All to Enjoy. I hope you may All Enjoy It!
Posted by Ian on October 16, 1996 at 03:55:43:
: : : I agree. Darcy is arrogant, concieted, and selfish.
: : : Elizabeth is quick to find faults in others when there are
: : : no faults to find (Darcy--sort of), and slow to find the
: : : faults that are relly there (Wickham). Both suffer from both
: : : pride and prejudice...Hey, that would make a great title!
: : : Ann
: : ___________________
: : That's the beauty of it - they make a great match because they LEARN from eachother ("...until this moment I never knew myself." - can't remember the exact quote, I'm winging it again). They teach eachother how to overcome their own faults - and become better people becasue of it. And yes, Darcy is proud, and Lizzy is prejudiced. Ding!
: : - K
: Agree re Darcy & Lizzie earning our (and each other's) love. Actually, Jane and Bingley ARE almost too perfect -- but
: they are also perfect for each other. And I cannot help liking them, perhaps because Lizzie & Darcy love and respect
: them so much.
Gee that got a response. But typical male I took the shortcut to the end rather than savouring the journey of Lizzy's and Darcy's growing awareness and love for each other. That's what makes the comparison with the goody two shoes Jane and Bingley so plain. But then that's life really. Love for some is an easy journey while it never is fulfilled for others.
Posted by Ian on October 16, 1996 at 04:01:25:
: : Well It must be my dirty mind again.but I have always thought that his reply about admiring Lizzys and Carolines figures to be rather cheeky.;);)
: And to that the double standards of that time.
: : So we can argue about it into eternity ;);)
: And Jane Austen is no longer here for us to ask and it is a little hard to ask Darcy
: : Whatewer was the case let us hope that the subject did not cause Darcy and Lizzy much trouble ;);)
: : Anna-Karin (with the dirty mind)
But wasn't Darcy only enraptured by her eyes?
Posted by Mr Collins aka Ian on October 16, 1996 at 04:18:25:
: I wonder how well Mr. Collins knows himself. Maybe more than I'm willing to allow him, but certainly not much (he is obviously "not a sensible man"). I still don't think that Mr. Collins consciously associates himself with Mary's master-of-the-obvious school of philosophy - he thinks too highly of himself. No doubt, as he thinks himself the superior moralizer in any situation, any similarities between them would either go unnoticed or unappreciated by Mr. C (ouch - passive voice -BAD!). Perhaps you have something there with the "piety-matching" thing - do you think that he may feel threatened, as small a man as he is?. If anyone has the film handy, they might want to observe more closely any reactions he may have to Mary prior to the scene of his "consolation visit."
: As far as Mary herself, I don't think she's austere - just dull and bookish and not very creative. She probably identifies with Mr. Collins. After all, she is the only Bennet who defends the pompous "olive branch" letter in which he announces his visit. I guess she tunes right in to his level of philosophical insipidity.
: And as far as Lady Catherine is concerned, Mr. COllins is somewhat of a servant, and a very willing subject of her condescention, which makes him fine by her. She may not like him, but she enjoys his flattery and dependence.
: Beginning to sound a lot like Mary Bennet,
If you're Mary then I must be the obnoxious Mr Collins. But HOW ghastly! The very man made me quake when I watched the series. I agree with your sentiments re Mr Collins. Now the "piety scene", I think this is one of the few moments when someone thought beneath him viz. Mary, broke through his thick countenance and suggested what a fool he was. Lizzy's subtle and sometimes downright bald statements never really hit home. As to Lady C well Mr C had groomed himself to be her doormat, of course mistaking cringing for humility. Lady C no doubt required this of people so she was very taken aback by Lizzy's forthright utterances. Even Darcy deferred to Lady C, preferring to not being in her company as much as possible.
Posted by Ian on October 16, 1996 at 04:41:09:
: . If you know of any sites where such images might be obtained, I would greatly appreciate hearing of them.
: You are in Italy? Then you may have better luck than we have had lately in reaching the Ostentatious Jane Page in Australia. There is a link to it from the Links page here. The pics may have come origially from the BBC page though I can't really say for sure.
Amy if you see the Cheesehead? etc comments at the bottom of the page you will see that Joan,too was able to connect to OJ's page eventually. Some of the pictures on and off OJ's page were sourced from the BBC. They are made available on OJ's page due to the labyrinthine and slowwwwwwwww BBC web pages. Alas there were no images of "Pemberley" etc when I looked there. Another good place to visit is http://www.hants.gov.uk/austen/ the Discover Hampshire - Jane Austen Country page for images of cottages and countryside of JA's era.
Posted by Ian on October 16, 1996 at 04:51:11:
: Oh dear, I should not even mention this I fear, but I found a most engaging new IRC application and wanted to see if anybody has any interest in trying it.
: It's a Microsoft Internet Explorer plug in called Comic Chat and it works just like regular IRC except you can "be" comic character. It's pretty limited right now but there are plans for customizable characters. Wouldn't it be almost too much fun to design some Regency characters -- or even play at being P&P characters?
: I do not wish to start anyone on a new addiction. God knows I don't need to spend any more time on the net, but I have often been on simultaneously with three or four of you and wished I could talk more directly.
Amyloo don't do it!;-) You e-mailed me once to say how tired you were. The P&P2 BB is already enough for you to manage, and a MIGHTY THANKYOU too for this GREAT resource.
Posted by Carolyn on October 16, 1996 at 08:30:34:
: : Well, Ian - all of a sudden, tonight, the link to OJ worked. But the particular links (to graphics?) that you had left earlier have all now expired. How about running them up the flagpole one more time?
: : Joan, too
: Thanks Joan for your patience and persistence. That's almost the Davey family motto: Courage through Perseverance. But I digress. Here is the image I wanted All to Enjoy. I hope you may All Enjoy It!
Great picture, it came up beautifully on my computer. Thanks!
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