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Posted by Kali on October 13, 1996 at 19:29:25:
:
: .
: : ___________________
: :
: : Yeah, I think Mr. B likes to punish Mrs. B for causing the lapse in his judgement which brought them together. He certainly likes to see her wig out. Perhaps he is interested in playing Mr. C and Mrs. B against eachother to punish them both- I can assume that he knows how the visit will play out, and how annoyed the entire family will be with him by the time he leaves (Mrs. B even more than before, since he leaves without engagement to one of her daughters...). Springing the news on everyone so suddenly makes the situation that much more confusing and thereby, the main players more amusingly addlepated.
: __
: _________________
: I don't think it's accurate to ascribe to Mr. Bennett the mean-spiritedness which he does not have. For my part, I think Mr. Bennett has found a way to "eke" out some enjoyment from his ill-conceived marriage with Mrs. B. That is, he enjoys getting her excited or riled (pleasantly or even negatively) with anticipation of the resolution. In other words, Mr. Bennett shamelessly manipulates Mrs. Bennett time and again for sport, and in this episode we see the pattern repeating. But, we have also experienced his contentment, even delight, with resolving such situations to her great pleasure (as in the case of the Bingley visit.) I believe Mr. Bennett had a fondness for his ditsy wife, and as in the case of many husbands, enjoyed seeing her happy.
: For what it's worth,
: Tommye
___________________
You're right - I didn't mean to sound _that_ heavy-handed. Still, Mr. Bennet is bitter, and while he doesn't really hate his wife, he most certainly fluctuates between amusement, mild annoyance, and even exasperation when it comes to dealing with her (in the book it is written that he is so sardonic at times that it hurts Lizzy to see it). And to be perfectly honest, most of the time she deserves what he dishes out to her.
- K
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Posted by Joan, too on October 13, 1996 at 19:30:03:
: I suppose the answer is that England -- at that time in those circles -- was a pretty small place,
The dissemination of gossip during this time appears to be somewhat unpredictable and capricious. Rumors of the Bennet sisters' beauty appear to have reached not only Mr. C., but also the Bingleys and Mr. Darcy, although those in Meryton appear to have been completely ignorant of the Bingleys, Darcy and Lady C. (of whom D. and Lady C. were supposedly among the most illustrious families in England) until persons connected with them actually put in an appearance in Meryton. So how did the Bingleys and Mr. Darcy hear about the Bennet sisters? One might speculate that they probably encountered the local gossip in their dealings with the locals on arriving in town. Mr. C., for example, had to hire a carriage to take him out to Longbourne; Mr. B. had to deal with a local solicitor in order to arrange to rent Netherfield - and might even have been dealing with the law office in which Mr. Phillips was employed.
: though the Bennets had to be told all about Lady C and she was an easy distance away.
and it is also possible that Lady C. had an inflated opinion of her own importance. ;-)
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Tommye on October 13, 1996 at 19:38:27:
: Betty,
: Allow me to express my gratitude for your kind concern for our personal productivity. I am certain I am joined by all my fellow addicts in wishing you th same measure of kindness and warmth that you have shewn us.
: Amy
: P.S. What a fine idea to discuss the credits. Thank you again so much!
___
________________
Thank you, Amy. I heartily echo your sentiments.
I'll start.
My opinion is the credits started too soon after the kiss and they didn't last long enough. What do you think?
Tommye
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on October 13, 1996 at 19:41:41:
:
: : Betty,
: : Allow me to express my gratitude for your kind concern for our personal productivity. I am certain I am joined by all my fellow addicts in wishing you th same measure of kindness and warmth that you have shewn us.
: : Amy
: : P.S. What a fine idea to discuss the credits. Thank you again so much!
: ___
: ________________
: Thank you, Amy. I heartily echo your sentiments.
: I'll start.
: My opinion is the credits started too soon after the kiss and they didn't last long enough. What do you think?
: Tommye
___________________
Also, for the second airing (the most recent one) on A&E
they shamelessly redid the credits so that they could
promote Emma. I would have prefered it if they kept the
originals intact.
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Saman on October 13, 1996 at 20:23:16:
: I've been away another week, so I'm slightly obviously to what's being discussing (though it appears to be the book!). However, I have noticed something in my last several viewings of P&P2 which I haven't seen discussed. Mrs. Bennett defers, from the beginning to Lydia. First noticed: Allowing Lydia to take Kitty's favorite hat! Why? Because Lydia wanted it! She was pretty nasty to Kitty about it, too. There are quite a few examples of this obvious favoritism, concluding with her tears at Lydia's departure with Wickham after their post-marriage visit. I also recall seeing lots of Mrs. B's tears shed over Lydia, something which I did NOT see when, for instance, Jane appeared to have been dumped by Bingley.
: I think Mrs. Bennett knew that Lizzy and Jane were her mental superiors and, therefore, spent time and loved more the daughter who most reminded her of herself. What say Ye?
: Tommye
___________________
Lydia was the youngest of Mrs. Bennet's children and that might have been a reason for the favouritism. Lizzy was obviously her father's favourite and so was less likely to be close to her mother (thank goodness, otherwise Mrs. Bennet might have had too great an influence over her).
Saman
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Posted by kathleen on October 13, 1996 at 20:34:15:
At the Netherfield Ball in P&P2 we see a tortured Darcy -- trying to avoid Elizabeth,
but drawn like a moth to a flame. In the book, he was more civil, friendly even. He
approached her shortly after she arrives to make "polite inquiries" and he says more to
her during their dance. I must admit that I miss the extra dialogue during the dance, and
I wonder if it is necessary to make Darcy seem so very reserved and conflicted.
kathleen
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Posted by kathleen on October 13, 1996 at 20:48:21:
: : Mrs. Bennett defers, from the beginning to Lydia.
: : . . . [and] loved more the daughter who most reminded her of herself. What say Ye?
: : Tommye
:
: ___________________
:
: Lydia was the youngest of Mrs. Bennet's children and that might have been a
: reason for the favouritism.
: Saman
___________________
Lydia is also a girl who just wants to have fun! I do think that Lydia is probably
a lot like Mrs Bennet -- Mrs Bennet admits to having liked military men (and still being
partial to them).
Does anyone else have trouble listening to Alison Steadman shrieking? I must confess
that while I have always assumed Mrs Bennet was foolish, silly, prattling, etc., I find the
shrieking a bit over the top.
kathleen
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Posted by kathleen on October 13, 1996 at 20:55:53:
: The dissemination of gossip during this time appears to be somewhat unpredictable and capricious. Rumors of the Bennet sisters' beauty appear to have reached not only Mr. C., but also the Bingleys and Mr. Darcy, although those in Meryton appear to have been completely ignorant of the Bingleys, Darcy and Lady C. (of whom D. and Lady C. were supposedly among the most illustrious families in England) until persons connected with them actually put in an appearance in Meryton. So how did the Bingleys and Mr. Darcy hear about the Bennet sisters? One might speculate that they probably encountered the local gossip in their dealings with the locals on arriving in town. Mr. C., for example, had to hire a carriage to take him out to Longbourne; Mr. B. had to deal with a local solicitor in order to arrange to rent Netherfield - and might even have been dealing with the law office in which Mr. Phillips was employed.
: Joan, too
___________________
The Bingleys were not completely unknown -- there is an early report about Bingley's
annual income. And they were not one of the first families -- after all their fortune had
been acquired by trade. Don't know why the Darcy and De Bourgh names aren't better
known, although again Darcy's income is known shortly after he enters the Meryton Assembly
(and I can't believe he or any member of their party would have mentioned it).
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on October 13, 1996 at 21:01:47:
I must admit that I miss the extra dialogue during the dance, and
: I wonder if it is necessary to make Darcy seem so very reserved and conflicted.
: kathleen
___________________
I am not sure I have an opinion about the differences between the book and film. It does seem that that in the novel their sparring ends in more of a draw than in the film where Lizzy pretty much wins.
Kathleen, I don't know if you have been around long enough to know about the essays by Lisa, our guest from the Firthlist. The Netherfield piece is linked below.
Amy
Link:
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Posted by kathleen on October 13, 1996 at 21:05:28:
: :
: : .
: : : ___________________
: : :
: : : Yeah, I think Mr. B likes to punish Mrs. B for causing the lapse in his judgement which brought them together. He certainly likes to see her wig out.
: : __
: : _________________
: : I don't think it's accurate to ascribe to Mr. Bennett the mean-spiritedness which he does not have. For my part, I think Mr. Bennett has found a way to "eke" out some enjoyment from his ill-conceived marriage with Mrs. B. That is, he enjoys getting her excited or riled (pleasantly or even negatively) with anticipation of the resolution. In other words, Mr. Bennett shamelessly manipulates Mrs. Bennett time and again for sport, and in this episode we see the pattern repeating. But, we have also experienced his contentment, even delight, with resolving such situations to her great pleasure (as in the case of the Bingley visit.) I believe Mr. Bennett had a fondness for his ditsy wife, and as in the case of many husbands, enjoyed seeing her happy.
: : For what it's worth,
: : Tommye
:
: ___________________
:
: You're right - I didn't mean to sound _that_ heavy-handed. Still, Mr. Bennet is bitter, and while he doesn't really hate his wife, he most certainly fluctuates between amusement, mild annoyance, and even exasperation when it comes to dealing with her (in the book it is written that he is so sardonic at times that it hurts Lizzy to see it). And to be perfectly honest, most of the time she deserves what he dishes out to her.
: - K
__________________
On the other hand, our author does say that Mrs Bennet's "weak understanding and illiberal mind, had very early in their marriage put
an end to all real affection for her. . . . To his wife he was very little otherwise indebted, than as her ignorance and folly had
contributed to his amusement." Lizzie, also, sees that he exposes Mrs Bennet to the "contempt of her own children." He may not
be bitter, but he is cynical and (I think) at least a little bit mean to his wife.
kathleen
Follow Ups:
Posted by kathleen on October 13, 1996 at 21:13:04:
: : for he's been in our dungeon all morning"
: Actually, it is "high dudgeon" that Mr. C. has been in all morning, "dugeon" being "an emotional response to a slight or indignity; a feeling of offense, resentment, anger" - a perfect term to describe Mr. C.'s feelings, since he has only fancied himself to be in love with Lizzie, and her rejection of his proposal has not injured his heart, but rather his pride.
: Joan, too
___________________
Question re Mr C's behavior:
Just noticed this viewing that Mr C has his suitcase (I assume it's not a briefcase w/ extra sermons!) when he goes
w/ Charlotte. Was he supposed to be spending the night at Lucas Lodge? Why? Is this just so the viewer will know
that he's going to be in Charlotte's company pretty much full time, or what?
kathleen
Posted by Amy on October 13, 1996 at 21:16:13:
: On the other hand, our author does say that Mrs Bennet's "weak understanding and illiberal mind, had very early in their marriage put
: an end to all real affection for her. . .
.... he is cynical and (I think) at least a little bit mean to his wife.
: kathleen
___________________
I have been in a marriage without respect or love. The circumstance can do things to you.
I adore Mr Bennet and identify with him a lot as so many of us here do. I find it a sad commentary on the times that gentlemen were not supposed to do much. What an empty life he must have had if he was prompted to say something like "What do we live for but to make sport for our neighbors and laugh at them in our turn."
If JA herself had not the strength of will or drive or whatever impelled her to write, she might well have had the same sad indolent sort of existence. Maybe our sequel ought to find Mr Bennet in a late life crisis that ends in his decision to put his observations of folly into comic novels.
Amy
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Posted by kathleen on October 13, 1996 at 21:25:10:
: Wickham's big lie about Darcy is outrageous. There are clues aplenty that it is a lie and if Lizzy were not so angry with Darcy or so taken by Wickham's attentions to her, she would have seen them.
: Another brilliant element in Lizzy's belief of the lie is that Jane Austen has the most unsympathetic and hated (and smackable) character in the book tell the truth, namely, Miss Bingley. Who would believe anything Miss Bingley says? And so Wickham's Big Lie now has the aura of the Absolute Truth.
: Cheryl
___________________
Agreed. Elizabeth's Prejudice against Darcy is a top motivation in her accepting what Wickham says.
Another person who defends Darcy is Jane, but as much as Elizabeth loves Jane, Jane's judgements
are generally so forgiving and kind that we (the readers and viewers) do not put much stock in them.
After all, one know exactly what to think -- about Darcy, about Wickham, and about Caroline Bingley
(smackable indeed!).
kathleen
Posted by kathleen on October 13, 1996 at 21:32:15:
: : On the other hand, our author does say that Mrs Bennet's "weak understanding and illiberal mind, had very early in their marriage put
: : an end to all real affection for her. . .
: .... he is cynical and (I think) at least a little bit mean to his wife.
: : kathleen
: ___________________
: I have been in a marriage without respect or love. The circumstance can do things to you.
: I adore Mr Bennet and identify with him a lot as so many of us here do. I find it a sad commentary on the times that gentlemen were not supposed to do much. What an empty life he must have had if he was prompted to say something like "What do we live for but to make sport for our neighbors and laugh at them in our turn."
: If JA herself had not the strength of will or drive or whatever impelled her to write, she might well have had the same sad indolent sort of existence. Maybe our sequel ought to find Mr Bennet in a late life crisis that ends in his decision to put his observations of folly into comic novels.
: Amy
___________________
Amy, that is a marvelous idea. I, too, like Mr Bennet (and have since I first met these wonderful
characters when I was 13 years old). With Lizzie at Pemberly he does get out of the house once
in a while, so maybe there's hope that his intellect will be put to productive use -- comic novels or
essays on the follies of men, or as a critic (too bad he couldn't be a theatre or movie or tv critic: what
sport he would have found there).
kathleen
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Posted by Arnessa on October 13, 1996 at 21:54:23:
:
: : : There's always Georgiana and her 30,000 pounds!
: : : Ann
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Ann, I don't think the Colonel would be considered a good enough match for Georgiana. He has no estate.
: ___________________
: There was some speculation on the Austen-L list a while back about him carrying on an affair with Charlotte.
: I'd like something nice to happen for the Colonel. In a way, he is like Lizzy: so deserving but with handicaps. Borrowing a page from Arnessa's sequel plot, what about Kitty and Fitzwilliam?
: Amy
___________________
I always believed the Colonel would end up with Anne. Darcy and his own good sense would keep him safe from Miss Bingley's scheming. But his "habits of dependence" wouldn't allow him to marry without some attention to money. And Anne, though we know she seems "sickly and cross," has a temperament that appears manageable, and I believe she could turn out well in good hands. (I know how sexist that sounds, but spouses do influence one another.) She would never be a useful companion, perhaps, but I don't think she'd be sooooo terrible. I always imagined the Colonel would be gentle and caring, and Anne needs someone like that after living with such a bruising mother all her life. I think he would be attracted to her as well. As the younger son of an Earl, he would know what it's like to feel irrelevant as Anne probably did in the shadow of Lady Catherine.
I don't know if his marrying Georgiana would be considered right. He is partly her guardian after all!
-Arnessa.
Posted by Arnessa on October 13, 1996 at 22:08:47:
: I had never been acquianted with the name Crispin Bonham-Carter until viewing P&P2. I knew the name Helena
: Bonham-Carter - and with that information set out to decide
: which character Crispin was (on A&E the cast was not always scrolled at the end of each part). I had drawn the conclusion that it must be Lydia (!) because the actress's appearance is so strikingly similar to Helena's. Am I crazy, or does anyone else see this?!
: Once online I found out that Crispin was actually a man, of course ;-) and that he was Mr Bingley. I was all astonishment, I assure you! Are he and Helena brother/sister? Would someone remind me of what their blue blood connections are?
___________________
Yes, Lydia does have some resemblance to Helena, but I immediately recognized who the Bonham-Carter in the production was when I saw Mr. Bingley's wonderful full head of slightly unruly hair. Who wouldn't love to have hair like that? I'm sure the disagree, though. The grass is always greener and all.
-Arnessa.
-Arnessa.
Posted by Cheryl on October 13, 1996 at 22:49:56:
Ah Amy, thanks for the picture- you know I love it and was hoping you would bring it back!
Cheryl
Posted by Cheryl on October 13, 1996 at 23:03:55:
And what was that look that Charlotte gets right afterwards? It looks like she's got something up her sleeve already. I did not get the impression that Charlotte's intent, if there was ever a very strong one, was too noticeable in the book at that point.
: :Eileen
___________________
There is a passage where Charlotte is visiting and all are talking about what has occurred. Mr Collins enters and the girls escape except Lydia who was determined to hear all she could of the conversation between her mother and Mr. Collins (because she thinks this is all "such fun!") and Charlotte who being "detained...by a little curiosity, satisfied herself by walking to the window and *pretending* not to hear."
I think that we can see a glimmer of interest in the matter here in Charlotte.
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
Posted by Arnessa on October 13, 1996 at 23:03:56:
: :
: : : Betty,
: : : Allow me to express my gratitude for your kind concern for our personal productivity. I am certain I am joined by all my fellow addicts in wishing you th same measure of kindness and warmth that you have shewn us.
: : : Amy
: : : P.S. What a fine idea to discuss the credits. Thank you again so much!
: : ___
: : ________________
: ___________________
: Also, for the second airing (the most recent one) on A&E
: they shamelessly redid the credits so that they could
: promote Emma. I would have prefered it if they kept the
: originals intact.
: Ann
___________________
Yes, Amy, I couldn't have said it better myself. Perhaps some people fail to notice that this is a support group for ADDICTS. As far as dubbing goes, I didn't mind the change in Darcy's voice at Rosings when he says, "No one admitted to the pleasure of hearing you can think anything wanting." It gives the line additional significance. And hearing Firth's voice as he says that always gives me a shiver of delight! So the dubbing was not all bad.
As to that other, more weighty matter of credits, I can only say that I did wish they allowed the kiss to linger for awhile without the credits. But all good things must come to an end. I liked that the credits at the end of each episode were given in order of appearance. I think that's more egalitarian. And I didn't mind the squished credits for the Emma promo, but if they were going to squish them, they should have given us more. You could barely tell what color Emma's gown was in the snippet. And I think after nearly breaking the pause button on my VCR, I managed to pick out what Mr. Knightley looked like. But all in all, I felt extremely ill-used by A&E's stinginess with the footage.
-Arnessa.
P.S. Oh, and Highbury looked excessively dusty in the promos. I always imagined it was a clean, well-ordered town, rather like Emma herself.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Cheryl on October 13, 1996 at 23:14:42:
: I don't think it's accurate to ascribe to Mr. Bennett the mean-spiritedness which he does not have.
(snipped)
: In other words, Mr. Bennett shamelessly manipulates Mrs. Bennett time and again for sport, and in this episode we see the pattern repeating.
:Tommye
And you don't find manipulation for sport mean-spirited?
(I know, not fair of me to take these two statements and put them together, but I couldn't help it!)
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
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