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Posted by Cheryl on October 08, 1996 at 11:06:03:
: I have got a cheap copy (Penguin popular classics) of P&P2, and as I am a librarian I would be horrified at the idea of a library book treated in the way I use this book. I have long before the discussion scheme was thought of) marked out where the six fdifferent videos end. I have every musical piece named in the margin.The spoken lines that are identical in Austens text, or the corresponding text that has been transformed to spoken lines are underlined in green. Everything that has to do with Darcy is underlined in red. The oxford edition by Chapman has a dating for the events in the novel. And I have tried to complement that and every day is noted in the margin.
: Ann2
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What a wonderful annotated edition you have made for yourself! I would love to see your copy as I am much too lazy to do such a thing myself! Although I do not have the film dialogue marked in my book, when I read those passages, I do *hear* the actors voices saying the lines.
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
Posted by Annie on October 08, 1996 at 11:31:59:
: I am feeling a trifle guilty since I am the one who started all these smacking people around threads and now feel compelled to say something nice about Miss Bingley. It is difficult to come up with something, but after much thought I find that it is Miss Bingley who invited Lizzy to stay at Netherfield til Jane was recovered, not Mr. Bingley as it is depicted in the film. Now, granted, she does this grudgingly and more out of a sense of obligation and hospitality than out of concern for Jane or Lizzy, but we must be content with any port in a storm!
: Cheryl
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:I think that's about the only nice thing Caroline Bingley did in the book.
Annie
Posted by Terese on October 08, 1996 at 11:32:39:
: I am feeling a trifle guilty since I am the one who started all these smacking people around threads and now feel compelled to say something nice about Miss Bingley. It is difficult to come up with something, but after much thought I find that it is Miss Bingley who invited Lizzy to stay at Netherfield til Jane was recovered, not Mr. Bingley as it is depicted in the film. Now, granted, she does this grudgingly and more out of a sense of obligation and hospitality than out of concern for Jane or Lizzy, but we must be content with any port in a storm!
: Cheryl
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I agree. Especially since Lizzy had already been set up as a rival per
Darcy's comment about her "fine eyes".
Follow Ups:
Posted by Annie on October 08, 1996 at 11:50:30:
I read Cheryl's comment about how Miss Bingley was nice enough (if it could be termed that) to let Elizabeth stay at Netherfield while Jane was ill. I reread the scene where everyone is discussing what a truly accomplished woman is. After Elizabeth leaves the room, Miss Bingley says that Elizabeth is the type who tries to recommend herself to others by putting down the rest of her gender. Darcy replies that he believes all women use deception to some effect and says, "Whatever bears affinity to cunning is despicable." Miss Bingley doesn't say anything after that (wisely), but forever after continues to insult Elizabeth, an obvious ploy to make her look bad in Darcy's eyes. I'm not saying that I would have liked her to end up with Darcy in the end--God Forbid!! But if she had been a little more intelligent, she would have remembered what Darcy said. And we wonder why Mr. Bennet commented that most of his daughters were as silly as most other girls!
Follow Ups:
Posted by Kelly on October 08, 1996 at 12:14:19:
Hi everyone ~
I'm not a regular here, I just drop in periodically to enjoy your
conversation (hope you don't mind?).
[Well intentioned commentary on our Firthland cousins snipped]
I guess that I loved Mr Darcy was sufficient for
gaining access to Firthland! ...prefer visiting your site here
I hope you won't mind if I stop by to read your messages every now and again?
Kelly
Follow Ups:
Posted by Maureen on October 08, 1996 at 12:18:16:
: I am feeling a trifle guilty since I am the one who started all these smacking people around threads and now feel compelled to say something nice about Miss Bingley. It is difficult to come up with something, but after much thought I find that it is Miss Bingley who invited Lizzy to stay at Netherfield til Jane was recovered, not Mr. Bingley as it is depicted in the film. Now, granted, she does this grudgingly and more out of a sense of obligation and hospitality than out of concern for Jane or Lizzy, but we must be content with any port in a storm!
: Cheryl
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What about when Caroline gets to know Jane better for the sake of her brother??? She invites Jane to Netherfield so they can become better acquainted and become friends. She also favors Jane with every possible thread when they first meet at the Meryton assembly, where their were scarce gentlemen and more than one lady was without a partener. What about her feelings toward Georgianna??? Aren't those genuine enough??? Or are those a masquerade for Darcy to see that her heart can be easily touched??? I can't believe that all of her efforts were just for the sake of Darcy's attention. What happened before the book began??? Were those two matched or was Caroline just pining over Darcy, attempting to make herself the ideal mistress of Pemberly???
- Maureen
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Posted by Mary on October 08, 1996 at 12:31:58:
: What about when Caroline gets to know Jane better for the sake of her brother??? She invites Jane to Netherfield so they can become better acquainted and become friends. She also favors Jane with every possible thread when they first meet at the Meryton assembly, where their were scarce gentlemen and more than one lady was without a partener. What about her feelings toward Georgianna??? Aren't those genuine enough??? Or are those a masquerade for Darcy to see that her heart can be easily touched??? I can't believe that all of her efforts were just for the sake of Darcy's attention. What happened before the book began??? Were those two matched or was Caroline just pining over Darcy, attempting to make herself the ideal mistress of Pemberly???
: - Maureen
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I don't think Miss Bingley's affection for Georgiana is genuine, but affected for Mr. Darcy's behalf. Remember how she brings up Wickham in front of Georgiana in the music room scene at Pemberley? Of course, she does it to embarrass Lizzy, but she doesn't seem to care that she's also hurting Georgiana in the process. Her attentions to Jane are fine when she is in the country and perhaps bored and looking for amusement. But she abandons Jane quickly enough once she decides she might interfere with her plans for Mr. Bingley.
Mary
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Posted by Amy on October 08, 1996 at 13:06:17:
Nice try, Cheryl. Awfully sweet and generous of you.
But I shall venture to think of her as I have before. She is (and was designed to be) pretty much wholly bad. Bad Bad Bad.
Posted by Ann on October 08, 1996 at 13:11:02:
: Keep up the great work that you are doing...and I hope you won't
: mind if I stop by to read your messages every now and again?
: Kelly
Welcome home!
Ann
Posted by Ann on October 08, 1996 at 13:16:26:
: I don't think Miss Bingley's affection for Georgiana is genuine, but affected for Mr. Darcy's behalf. Remember how she brings up Wickham in front of Georgiana in the music room scene at Pemberley? Of course, she does it to embarrass Lizzy, but she doesn't seem to care that she's also hurting Georgiana in the process. Her attentions to Jane are fine when she is in the country and perhaps bored and looking for amusement. But she abandons Jane quickly enough once she decides she might interfere with her plans for Mr. Bingley.
: Mary
Miss Bingley did not know about Wickham and Georgiana. That is not something Darcy or his sister would have wanted people to know about.
Ann
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Posted by Mary on October 08, 1996 at 13:22:18:
: True, true. But I do not think we are supposed to agree that it was a good or sensible decision on Charlotte's part. Jane tells Lizzie to "do anything rather than marry without affection." [In the book; I don't believe this was in the film.] And Elizabeth never agrees that Charlotte -- who is a sensible woman -- made a wise/sensible choice.
: Maybe Charlotte will have enough good things in her life to make up for a husband who is a fool, but will her children turn out sensible w/ such a father?
: kathleen
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No, I don't think Jane Austen thought Charlotte made a good choice, especially as Jane never married herself even though she had the chance. A strong theme in all her novels is the difficult situation women were in -- they couldn't support themselves in any respectable way that wasn't demeaning so unless they were independently weathly or very lucky in love they faced some difficult choices.
(As to Charlotte's children, they had a 50-50 chance. Look at the Bennets: Sensible father + silly mother = 2 very sensible daughters, 2 with potential, and 1 mistake. (Though perhaps even Lydia could have been salvaged if she'd received more of her father's attention and less of her mother's.)
Mary
Posted by Mich on October 08, 1996 at 13:46:51:
: : I am feeling a trifle guilty since I am the one who started all these smacking people around threads and now feel compelled to say something nice about Miss Bingley. It is difficult to come up with something, but after much thought I find that it is Miss Bingley who invited Lizzy to stay at Netherfield til Jane was recovered, not Mr. Bingley as it is depicted in the film. Now, granted, she does this grudgingly and more out of a sense of obligation and hospitality than out of concern for Jane or Lizzy, but we must be content with any port in a storm!
: : Cheryl
: ___________________
: What about when Caroline gets to know Jane better for the sake of her brother??? She invites Jane to Netherfield so they can become better acquainted and become friends. She also favors Jane with every possible thread when they first meet at the Meryton assembly, where their were scarce gentlemen and more than one lady was without a partener. What about her feelings toward Georgianna??? Aren't those genuine enough??? Or are those a masquerade for Darcy to see that her heart can be easily touched??? I can't believe that all of her efforts were just for the sake of Darcy's attention. What happened before the book began??? Were those two matched or was Caroline just pining over Darcy, attempting to make herself the ideal mistress of Pemberly???
: - Maureen
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To the above, 100% to attract Darcy's attention. I agree with Ann Bad, Bad, Bad.
Follow Ups:
Posted by Cheryl on October 08, 1996 at 13:47:21:
: I read Cheryl's comment about how Miss Bingley was nice enough (if it could be termed that) to let Elizabeth stay at Netherfield while Jane was ill. I reread the scene where everyone is discussing what a truly accomplished woman is. After Elizabeth leaves the room, Miss Bingley says that Elizabeth is the type who tries to recommend herself to others by putting down the rest of her gender. Darcy replies that he believes all women use deception to some effect and says, "Whatever bears affinity to cunning is despicable." Miss Bingley doesn't say anything after that (wisely), but forever after continues to insult Elizabeth, an obvious ploy to make her look bad in Darcy's eyes. I'm not saying that I would have liked her to end up with Darcy in the end--God Forbid!! But if she had been a little more intelligent, she would have remembered what Darcy said. And we wonder why Mr. Bennet commented that most of his daughters were as silly as most other girls!
___________________
I like this little put down of Miss Bingley by Darcy. But I cannot believe that she fully understands that it was directed principally at her. She did feel uneasy with his answer (she "was not so entirely satisfied with this reply as to continue the subject") but if she really understood him to say (as we do) "and I see through all of *your* little maneuvers, too" surely she would not have continued in the same way. Or perhaps she was desperate enough that she could not help herself. Poor Miss Bingley. I almost feel sorry for her (NOT!)
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
Posted by Mich on October 08, 1996 at 13:48:35:
: : : I am feeling a trifle guilty since I am the one who started all these smacking people around threads and now feel compelled to say something nice about Miss Bingley. It is difficult to come up with something, but after much thought I find that it is Miss Bingley who invited Lizzy to stay at Netherfield til Jane was recovered, not Mr. Bingley as it is depicted in the film. Now, granted, she does this grudgingly and more out of a sense of obligation and hospitality than out of concern for Jane or Lizzy, but we must be content with any port in a storm!
: : : Cheryl
: : ___________________
: : What about when Caroline gets to know Jane better for the sake of her brother??? She invites Jane to Netherfield so they can become better acquainted and become friends. She also favors Jane with every possible thread when they first meet at the Meryton assembly, where their were scarce gentlemen and more than one lady was without a partener. What about her feelings toward Georgianna??? Aren't those genuine enough??? Or are those a masquerade for Darcy to see that her heart can be easily touched??? I can't believe that all of her efforts were just for the sake of Darcy's attention. What happened before the book began??? Were those two matched or was Caroline just pining over Darcy, attempting to make herself the ideal mistress of Pemberly???
: : - Maureen
:
: ___________________
: To the above, 100% to attract Darcy's attention. I agree with Ann Bad, Bad, Bad.
___________________
Sorry it was Amy not Ann who said Bad, Bad, Bad.
Mich
Follow Ups:
Posted by Andrew on October 08, 1996 at 14:10:24:
: : : : I am feeling a trifle guilty since I am the one who started all these smacking people around threads and now feel compelled to say something nice about Miss Bingley. It is difficult to come up with something, but after much thought I find that it is Miss Bingley who invited Lizzy to stay at Netherfield til Jane was recovered, not Mr. Bingley as it is depicted in the film. Now, granted, she does this grudgingly and more out of a sense of obligation and hospitality than out of concern for Jane or Lizzy, but we must be content with any port in a storm!
: : : : Cheryl
: : : ___________________
: : : What about when Caroline gets to know Jane better for the sake of her brother??? She invites Jane to Netherfield so they can become better acquainted and become friends. She also favors Jane with every possible thread when they first meet at the Meryton assembly, where their were scarce gentlemen and more than one lady was without a partener. What about her feelings toward Georgianna??? Aren't those genuine enough??? Or are those a masquerade for Darcy to see that her heart can be easily touched??? I can't believe that all of her efforts were just for the sake of Darcy's attention. What happened before the book began??? Were those two matched or was Caroline just pining over Darcy, attempting to make herself the ideal mistress of Pemberly???
: : : - Maureen
: :
: : ___________________
: : To the above, 100% to attract Darcy's attention. I agree with Ann Bad, Bad, Bad.
:
: ___________________
: Sorry it was Amy not Ann who said Bad, Bad, Bad.
: Mich
_Hey Mich, umm, I hope you returned those videos last night__________________
Posted by Andrew on October 08, 1996 at 14:10:32:
: : : : I am feeling a trifle guilty since I am the one who started all these smacking people around threads and now feel compelled to say something nice about Miss Bingley. It is difficult to come up with something, but after much thought I find that it is Miss Bingley who invited Lizzy to stay at Netherfield til Jane was recovered, not Mr. Bingley as it is depicted in the film. Now, granted, she does this grudgingly and more out of a sense of obligation and hospitality than out of concern for Jane or Lizzy, but we must be content with any port in a storm!
: : : : Cheryl
: : : ___________________
: : : What about when Caroline gets to know Jane better for the sake of her brother??? She invites Jane to Netherfield so they can become better acquainted and become friends. She also favors Jane with every possible thread when they first meet at the Meryton assembly, where their were scarce gentlemen and more than one lady was without a partener. What about her feelings toward Georgianna??? Aren't those genuine enough??? Or are those a masquerade for Darcy to see that her heart can be easily touched??? I can't believe that all of her efforts were just for the sake of Darcy's attention. What happened before the book began??? Were those two matched or was Caroline just pining over Darcy, attempting to make herself the ideal mistress of Pemberly???
: : : - Maureen
: :
: : ___________________
: : To the above, 100% to attract Darcy's attention. I agree with Ann Bad, Bad, Bad.
:
: ___________________
: Sorry it was Amy not Ann who said Bad, Bad, Bad.
: Mich
_Hey Mich, umm, I hope you returned those videos last night__________________
Posted by Mary on October 08, 1996 at 14:12:30:
: : I have got a cheap copy (Penguin popular classics) of P&P2, and as I am a librarian I would be horrified at the idea of a library book treated in the way I use this book. I have long before the discussion scheme was thought of) marked out where the six fdifferent videos end. I have every musical piece named in the margin.The spoken lines that are identical in Austens text, or the corresponding text that has been transformed to spoken lines are underlined in green. Everything that has to do with Darcy is underlined in red. The oxford edition by Chapman has a dating for the events in the novel. And I have tried to complement that and every day is noted in the margin.
: : Ann2
:
: ___________________
: What a wonderful annotated edition you have made for yourself! I would love to see your copy as I am much too lazy to do such a thing myself! Although I do not have the film dialogue marked in my book, when I read those passages, I do *hear* the actors voices saying the lines.
: Cheryl
___________________
I would also love to have a copy of your personally annotated edition. Maybe you should put up a website for it, or could it be included here?
MaryH
Follow Ups:
Posted by MaryH on October 08, 1996 at 14:15:18:
:
: : You remind me of one of my hairbrained business schemes. Try this on. I publish P&P as a scribble book meant to be defaced. Cheap paper. Maybe perforated and 3-hole punched like a notebook. Main text in the middle with maybe some footnotes or commentary (Henry, want to get in on this?) in part of the wide margins, like the Talmud. Plus plenty of space to scribble in your own notes.
: : Amy
:
: ___________________
:
:
: I'd buy it!!! And it would be great for students - especially with the notes (or perhaps a chapter with explanations like the pages on the net).
: Anne
: (did pick up an inexpensive paperback version today to write in.)
___________________
You and Ann2 ought to collaborate on an edition or another website. (Just what you need, right? ;)
MaryH
Posted by Mmt on October 08, 1996 at 14:15:49:
: : : In A&E versions it was quite clear that Darcy Knew Lizzie had heard him but I didn't think the book
: : : made that clear. She seemed to tease him later about it but do you think at this point he knew
: : : she had heard him?
: : : Mich
: :
: : ___________________
: : I agree we get that impression in the film, but not in the book. However, you can argue that he does not know he was overheard in the film also. Lizzy walks past him, attracting his attention, she talks to Charlotte, they glance at him and laugh. He may not know that he was overheard, but he does know that he is the object of their tete-a-tete, which surprises and intrigues him.
: : Cheryl
:
: I always have always felt that Darcy was just feeling awkward when he realized that Lizzie and Charlotte may be talking about him, but that he did not know that he had been overheard. I felt that later, when Darcy and Col. Fitzwilliam had rushed over to visit them at Mr. and Mrs. Collins home and Lizzie had joked that " I always believe in first impressions and a good opinion once lost is lost forever"
: is when he realized that he had ben overheard.
: Katherine
___________________
:
:I don't know if Darcy was overheard at the assembly, but the "good opinion" comment is from her last evening at Nfield, during the conversation precipitated by Miss Bingley and Lizzie's
:'turn about the room';
:
:::``No'' -- said Darcy, ``I have made no such pretension. I have faults enough, but they are not, I hope, of understanding. My temper I dare not vouch for. --
:::It is I believe too little yielding -- certainly too little for the convenience of the world. I cannot forget the follies and vices of others so soon as I ought, nor
:::their offences against myself. My feelings are not puffed about with every attempt to move them. My temper would perhaps be called resentful. -- My good
:::opinion once lost is lost for ever.''
:
:::``That is a failing indeed!'' -- cried Elizabeth. ``Implacable resentment is a shade in a character. But you have chosen your fault well. -- I really cannot
:::laugh at it; you are safe from me.''
:Mmt
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Posted by kathleen on October 08, 1996 at 14:41:22:
: What about when Caroline gets to know Jane better for the sake of her brother??? She invites Jane to Netherfield so they can become better acquainted and become friends. She also favors Jane with every possible thread when they first meet at the Meryton assembly, where their were scarce gentlemen and more than one lady was without a partener. What about her feelings toward Georgianna??? Aren't those genuine enough??? Or are those a masquerade for Darcy to see that her heart can be easily touched??? I can't believe that all of her efforts were just for the sake of Darcy's attention. What happened before the book began??? Were those two matched or was Caroline just pining over Darcy, attempting to make herself the ideal mistress of Pemberly???
: - Maureen
___________________
I think Caroline & Louisa (Mrs. Hurst) are bored w/ each other (wouldn't you be?). Therefore, she invites Jane to Netherfield to pass the time while the gentlemen are dining w/ some of the officers. Jane is certainly not a rival for Darcy's affection, and she's one of the nicest, more intelligent, and highest ranking young women of the neighborhood. And, she wasn't expected to catch cold and spend the night (a gentleman's daughter should have a carriage at her disposal, no?)
Besides, as Darcy says about Bingley, he had been in love before -- so Caroline would not have assumed anything serious necessarily going on there. No need to be friendly w/ a future sister-in-law, I mean. Besides, she had already picked out a future sister-in-law, so she would not have encouraged any deepening of affection between her brother and Jane.
kathleen
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