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Posted by Joan, too on October 07, 1996 at 18:57:18:
: : kathleen:
: : Does anyone else have difficulty watching this scene in P&P2? It is actually one of my favorite scenes from the early part of the book, but I have to take several breaks in order to get through it on the video tape. (I think I've just fast forwarded through this scene the last several times I've watched it.) I'm not certain what the problem is. Maybe it's Mrs. Bennet screeching, or the change in the dialogue, or . . . . or I do not know. I don't feel you get the same character development as this scene provides in the book, but I don't think that explains my problem.
: I just cringe when Mrs. Bennet enters the room. I feel all the humiliation Lizzie must feel every time her mother opens her mouth. I too have to fast forward in order to get through it. Poor Lizzie...Poor Darcy.
I agree - however, on re-reading this chapter I discovered something that I had not remembered, and which seems quite out of character of Mrs. Bennet to have said, in consideration of her general abdication of the role of "parent" in exerting control over the behavior of her children, and teaching them to behave appropriately in society. Lizzie and Bingley are talking of "deep intricate characters" (such as Darcy's) as opposed to simple east-to-read ones (such as Bingley's), and Mrs. B. interjects
"Lizzy," cried her mother, "remember where you are, and do not run on in the wild manner that you are suffered to do at home."
I am all amazement!
Posted by kathleen on October 07, 1996 at 18:57:29:
: I believe it's also in this segment that it talks about if not for Lizzie Mr.. Bingley
: would have lost his temper (Cant think of the word actually used) with Mrs. Bennet.
: I can't imagine what he would have done. Any thoughts?
Bingley was close to laughing or at least grinning about Mrs. Bennet's ridiculous behavior. She
had just tried to impress everyone w/ how big their neighbourhood was -- four and twenty families.
Posted by kathleen on October 07, 1996 at 19:04:41:
: : ___________________
: : I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who wants to slap the s***out of Miss Bingley. Wouldn't that be a great money raiser at a Jane Austen themed based carnival? "Slap Miss Bingley: only one pound!" Think of all the monies that could be raised for the Bennet girls doweries!
: : Cheryl
: While we're getting physical - how about spanking Lydia.
Such violence being advocated! While I do not disagree with the sentiments
I suspect that these women are punished by not being completely happy in their
marriages (assuming Miss Bingley ever traps a man). However, you have omitted
any punishment for Lady Catherine -- Elizabeth & the Gardiners polluting Pemberley,
Posted by Joan, too on October 07, 1996 at 19:08:53:
: what made a "Gentleman". Lizzie speaks later to Darcy aunt that
: Darcy is a gentleman and she a gentleman daughter so far they are equal.
: What defined a man as a "Gentleman"
Just one thing - who your ancestors were.
Posted by kathleen on October 07, 1996 at 19:14:53:
: : : Donna:
: : : Charlotte thought she would be happy with Mr. Collins?
: : Mary:
: : I don't think Charlotte necessarily thought she would be happy with Mr. Collins, I think she primarily thought she would be taken care of. Being older than Lizzy also means she is more desperate to find a husband and spare herself and her family the embarrassment and the economic discomfort of being an "old maid" (at 28 -- yikes!)
: I agree - Charlotte was under no illusion that she would be happy in a "romantic" way with Mr. Collins. She went into that marriage with her eyes wide open, and fully prepared to engineer things as much to her own liking as possible. Since Mr. Collins was not clever, he was more manageable, and Charlotte was able to arrange things so that on many days they barely saw one another - which suited her just fine, and she expressed herself to Lizzie as being quite satisfied with her situation - which would eventually be improved with the arrival of children upon whom she could direct her affection and attention, further removing he from the necessity of spending much time with Mr. C. Someone who "never was" romantic, and had no expectations along those lines, could be quite happy in such a life.
True, true. But I do not think we are supposed to agree that it was a good or sensible decision on Charlotte's part. Jane tells Lizzie to "do anything rather than marry without affection." [In the book; I don't believe this was in the film.] And Elizabeth never agrees that Charlotte -- who is a sensible woman -- made a wise/sensible choice.
Maybe Charlotte will have enough good things in her life to make up for a husband who is a fool, but will her children turn out sensible w/ such a father?
Posted by Joan, too on October 07, 1996 at 19:22:04:
: When Jane, Lizzy, and Charlotte are talking about the Netherfield party as they make their entrance at the Meryton ball, Charlotte points out who is who. After saying Mrs. Hurst is married to one of the gentlemen, Jane says, "The tall one?" Charlotte: No the other one. Then someone says "Better and better", who? You can't tell because the camera is focusing on Darcy. If it is Lizzie (which I like to think it is), it shows an early interest in Darcy. I am just having trouble recognizing the voice, even after 5 viewings in 3 days.
I think it is Lizzie - but it does not necessarily follow that it indicates a specific interest in Darcy at that point - certainly no more so than in Bingley. I think it referrs more to the original report by Lydia and Kitty that there would be many more ladies in Bingley's party, which turned out to be false - a definite improvement - immediately followed by the news that of the two gentlemen whom Bingley has brought, the better looking one appears also to be single.
Posted by DonnaT on October 07, 1996 at 19:32:45:
: : He is a goner.
As Are We, I love when Mr. Bennett looks out the window at the blue sky when Mrs. B is predicting rain for Jane's ride to Netherfield.
Posted by Joan, too on October 07, 1996 at 19:37:00:
: In some places Lizzie's voice sounds like it is dubbed in -- or what do I know, maybe every time someone is off screen the audio is in a seperate recording. I too was a little confused about who said, "better and better," but like Cheryl assumed it was Lizzy.
: The other place her voice sounds odd or different to me in after Mr Collins' odious condoling visit. Kitty asks if he's gone and Lizzy answers "Forever with any luck."
According to "The Making" book, there were a number of places in which sound had to be re-dubbed because of problems in the original sound track (such as sounds of airplanes overhead). This can be very difficult to do. The example of this which bothers me the most is Darcy's line, "No one admitted to the priviledge of hearing you could find anything wanting." It's evident that this line ws re-dubbed - the pitch doesn't quite match, and there is less "hollowness" in the room than in the part of that speech that comes immediately before and after this line.
Posted by Joan, too on October 07, 1996 at 19:43:09:
: Be sure to look at the paintings at Rosings and then at one of Lady Catherine's hats. In an interview, the actress playing Lady C comments on the connection.
Where did you find an interview with Barbara Leigh-Hunt (Lady C.)? I'd love to hear what else she had to say!
Posted by Joan, too on October 07, 1996 at 19:53:29:
: One section left out of the film shows Elizabeth "teasing" Darcy about listening to her conversation w/ Colonel Forster. He had clearly been listening, and he teases her back about women's love of balls. It is a scene where we see Darcy trying to get to know her, and Elizabeth not discouraging him -- in fact, he would consider her starting the conversation w/ him as indicating an interest in him.
However, in that context, Elizabeth's intention was not to encourage him - she spoke to him because she was "dared to" by Charlotte, who then also insisted that Lizzie play and sing, which she was reluctant to do. This whole scene portrays Charlotte as having amuch more playful side than appears elsewhere either in the book or film.
Posted by Joan, too on October 07, 1996 at 20:01:34:
: However, you have omitted any punishment for Lady Catherine -- Elizabeth & the Gardiners polluting Pemberley, indeed!
Ah, but she is punished - by eventually having to eat her own words and visit Pemberley after its having thus been polluted, and by Lydia (whose reputation is the one that Lady C. claimed would pollute Pemberley), as well! ;-) The punishment indeed fits the crime!
Posted by Mich on October 07, 1996 at 20:14:20:
: : What is it fellow Janites, about *you* that makes you watch these films over and over again, and compels you to communicate with like minded sufferers in this forum?
: : Seeking now to understand my addiction and not to simply wallow in it, I remain yours truly,
: : Cheryl
: I don't have any conclusive answer about myself, I can only confess that my private obsession is definitely J. Ehle and not Firth. I can also admit I had different obsessions during different periods in my short but intensive life (Kafka, V. Wolf, Folkner and some Israeli writers you probebly never heard of).
: As I know myself, those obsessions usually fade away after a while and I move on to the next thing I get hooked on. My advice to all my fellow obsessors is not to try and understand the phenomenon, just to enjoy it, because it won't last forever...
: I tried to fight my obsessions, until I realized its useless, Obsessions have their own peculiar mechanism. Just let it be.
: Yours etc.
: P.S Pardon my bad English, It's not my first language, and although I can read fluently, my writing needs much improvment yet.
I think the main reason I am so drawn to it is not so much Ehle or Firth but Lizzie and Darcy.
They are symbols of many things I wish for and admire in others. I'll start with Darcy. I won't deny and I'm sure none of you would believe me if I said otherwise, but I find him quite attractive. At first I thought I must be attracted to Colin Firth but after reading some articles on him I was sure I was mistaken. Then I watched the tape AGAIN and realized I like Darcy as a person. I admire his self analysis and strengthen at looking into his own darker side. How many us could take what was said in the first proposal and turn it into self improvement? How easy it would have been for him to hate Lizzie and delude himself that all she said was untrue. If any of you have had to struggle with past demons you understand how much strength it takes.
Even before he has done this he responds to Lizzie, by letter, opening himself up even more by disclosing his pain concerning his sister and Wickham. Most men of pride would not have responded at all. (O.K.,he was a bit hostile in the letter, I didn't say he was perfect. close very close)
In Lizzie I see many of the same things. She brings a warm sense of humor and intelligence I enjoy very much. She can offend someone in the most biting yet subtle way. Like Darcy she has her own inner growth to do. We see many of her imperfections and her struggles to confront them. She is ahead of Darcy in that she can laugh at herself which he has not yet learned to do. She very much needs people like Jane and Charlotte to give her balance but accepts and enjoys it. In my first 10 or 20 viewings I don't think I really noticed Darcy because I enjoyed getting to know Lizzie so much.
Darcy as Austin writes him and as Firth plays him, is a warm caring,gentle,intelligent passionate and strong man. I even found myself transporting him into 1996 but decided he would never be able to handle the differences in modern women and I could never become a lady of that time. Anyway I digress.. Lizzie I would like to think has much of Austin in her. She is someone I would value as my friend
I have always been uncomfortable with the idea of Mr. Right or a Knight in shinning armor. Mr Right sounds dull, and I don't need to be saved. I would however like to find a soulmate. Darcy and Lizzie to me are soulmates. Their life will be full of challenges but never without each other. It makes me so angry to see sequels where the author has so little imagination that they can only think of breaking them up and reuniting them. Not only would that never happen, it's a cop out.
All of this is of course due to Austin's writings. I have enjoyed all of her books but P&P is by far my favorite. I'm not sure if it's romance but what ever it is, Austin touches it.
Posted by Mich on October 07, 1996 at 20:19:07:
: : : : -- ARE we obsessive t ypes generally? In my case, I can become obsessive about other things: an idealized crush on an old friend; web site making; getting on "kicks" with authors, not satisfied until I've read everything they have written. But it isn't excessive or anywhere near psychotic. I don't watch other movies over and over. I do get kidded by my father for re-reading favorite books.
: : :
: : : : Amy
: : : I too am a serial obsessive. I fixate on one thing, devour
: : : it, digest it, and absorb it for months--if not years.
: : ___________________
: : My past obsessions on this level are all mostly from fifteen or more years ago. But that is how far back I have to go for suitable comparison to the way I am now about Jane Austen. Here are the past ones:
: : Barbie Dolls
: : Nancy Drew
: : Star Wars
: : MASH
: : Star Trek
: : ABBA
: : Old Movies
: : Soap Operas (Paricularly Santa Barbara)
: : Top 40 radio
: : T.V. in general
: : It is like having an appetite waiting to be satisfied. I like to find one large related interest (like a whole world). This I prefer to one isolated thing such as when I was interested in Lady/Princess Diana--that is a pretty limited interest.
: I also have had obsessions similar to this one. After seeing the Anthony Andrews/Jane Seymour version of "The Scartlet Pimpernel", I had to find all of Baroness Orczy's "Scarlet Pimpernel" books. There are about six or eight (this is a lady who knew the importance of sequels!). My most recent obsession, prior to P & P2, is also British, " The Sharpe Series", which appeared on PBS in June 1995. I then in the next month or so, read all of Bernard Cornwall's "Sharpe" novels (There are 14, I think). The funny thing is that all these obsessions take place in the same time frame so to speak. Scarlet Pimpernel takes place during the French Revolution, which occurs shortly before JA began P&P, the Sharpe series takes place from 1808-1815, the years in which JA was first published. I am also a big Regency romance fan, and love the books of Georgette Heyer. So maybe I am just reliving a past life.
Did Anyone else get hooked on Anne of Green gables and all the sequels?
I was a bit old when I first saw them but enjoyed them many many times.
Posted by Lilian on October 07, 1996 at 20:21:22:
: Charlotte on falling in love:
: "We can all begin freely--a slight preference is natural enough:
: but there are very few of us who have heart enough to be really
: in love without encouragement."
: Darcy seems to be a man who does possess that "utmost force of
: passion"--enough to fall in love with Lizzy without encouragement.
: But then, he thought she was encouraging him, expecting and
: awaiting him. So, was it his pride fancying encouragement when
: there was none, or his love ignoring the uncomfortable fact that
: she was not encouraging him. (Or was she actually subconciously
: encouraging him?)
I think that Darcy fell in love with Lizzy without really knowing
it because she is so different to the women he associates with.
I don't think Lizzy was encouraging him at all. She didn't like him
and everything he said irritated her partly because she thought he
had such a one-track mind. By being herself, I think Darcy enjoyed
thism simply because no women has really disagreed with him. (Every
women like Miss Bingley was so obliging to him>. I think Darcy knew
that Lizzy did not return his love and this irritated him
because every woman loves him, and Lizzy didn't yet he loved her.
That's why he was surprised when she rejected him - any woman he
knew would definately accept him - even ones that may not yet
return his love. When Lizzy rejected him, he was stung sooo bad.
Posted by Mich on October 07, 1996 at 20:21:57:
: : : ___________________
: : : My past obsessions on this level are all mostly from fifteen or more years ago. But that is how far back I have to go for suitable comparison to the way I am now about Jane Austen. Here are the past ones:
: : : Barbie Dolls; Nancy Drew; Star Wars; MASH; Star Trek; ABBA; Old Movies; Soap Operas (Paricularly Santa Barbara); Top 40 radio; T.V. in general
: : :
: : : It is like having an appetite waiting to be satisfied. I like to find one large related interest (like a whole world). This I prefer to one isolated thing such as when I was interested in Lady/Princess Diana--that is a pretty limited interest.
: : ___________________
: : Mine go back a lot farther than 15 years but include:
: : : The Beatles; Star Trek (and now, more so, TNG); Beauty and the Beast (TV show); Most science fiction (especially Asimov, McCaffrey, Eddings, Lackey and Card);The Rocky Horror Picture Show; TV in general; Rod McKuen.
: : A wide spectrum indeed.
: : Anne
: : The Beatles
: Amazing how several obsessions seem to be in common. My own include
: Beauty and the Beast (tv show); Star Trek (TNG).
: But I have also become obsessed with sports teams, and sports personalities.
: My only consistent obsession, the only one Iever return to with the same
: satisfaction as I initially felt, is Jane Austen. I may set the obsession aside for
: a time, but I always return.
I loved B&B, but I hated how they ended it.
Posted by Johanna on October 07, 1996 at 20:22:08:
: : : : ___________________
: : I believe that you reached majority at 21 years old. If Bingley is two years older, he is also 23.
: Here's another age bender to think about. Charlotte is twenty-seven, right? Unless I read something wrong somewhere, Mr. Collins is only twenty-five. (As I'm writing this, I don't have my copy of Pride and Prejudice with me, so I might be wrong.)
This is true.
The PP2 production reners Collins somewhat older than he actually is in the book.
ps: Was out of town for the weekend, but am loving all the posts! This is great!
Posted by Mich on October 07, 1996 at 20:29:19:
: : I like Darcy's side of the scene. He knows that he has lost
: : his position of supreme respect in his friend's eyes (who
: : before had never known a more awful object than Darcy).
: : When he asks if Bingley needs his consent the subtext is:
: : "Bingley, after all I have done to hurt you, after all of
: : the pain I caused you and Jane, do you really need my
: : permission to do what I should not have stopped you from
: : doing a year ago!
: I have always read Darcy's "Do you really need my approval?" to mean "Come on, man, make up your own mind. If you really love her don't let anyone stand in your way, even me. Go to it."
I agree, like an older brother teaching the younger to step out on his own.
I though Bingley very sweet to respond that he does not need Darcys approval but
would like to have it just the same. Their freindship grow alot in the sceen.
Posted by Bea on October 07, 1996 at 20:31:34:
: It is interesting to compare Bingley's sisters with Charlotte, who is one of the only other women in the book who is not described as handsome. Charlotte is as least as good-looking as either of the SS (superior sisters), or is that just my opinion? I notice that the book and the video both make several references to Jane being "pretty," which leads me to assume that handsome is not as attractive as pretty.
: Anyone know the contemporary equivalent of handsome? Would it be the same as saying someone is "attractive?" (A term I've heard one should be wary of when describing blind dates.)
Perhaps so, as Darcy only uses the word handsome. To Bingley, "You are dancing with the
only handsome girl in the room", and "She is tolerable; but not handsome enough to tempt
me." And this is used by him who tells Lizzy, not that he is madly in love with her, but
that he likes her against his will. So, perhaps handsome was more of a middle of the road term
that Darcy would have even been comfortable with.
Posted by Mich on October 07, 1996 at 20:32:57:
: It's always a point of
: : curiousity why a man of strength like Darcy hangs around
: : with a limp noodle like Bingley. I'm sure Darcy would admire
: : Bingley more if he developed a greater back bone.
: : Ann
: Bingley may be a "limp noodle" but he is a kind, cheerful and loyal "limp noodle" and those people are rare, you keep friends like that when you find them. That being said, Darcy would certainly respect him more if he were more his own man, but I also suspect that Darcy does not mind being admired and consulted and generally in charge, pulling strings behind the scenes. He is very used to being deferred to. It is Lizzy's refusal to see him as "an awful object" that initally fascinates him.
I think Bingley has many of the social skills Darcy would like to have. Let's face it the early Darcy probably had
few close friends.
Posted by Cheryl on October 07, 1996 at 20:35:47:
: Did Anyone else get hooked on Anne of Green gables and all the sequels?
: I was a bit old when I first saw them but enjoyed them many many times.
Yes, I did. I also saw it late in life (along with Austen- what was I doing during my youth?) but loved the stories and went and bought all the books. I was a little taken aback to find that they were located in the childrens section, but then so was Little Women and I still read that as an adult (however I did discover that book in 5th grade!)
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