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Posted by Marsha on October 06, 1996 at 16:27:37:
: _______________
: : Do you suppose they needed to fill up the allotted
: : time for the BBC broadcast?)
: : kathleen
:
: ___________________
:
:
: Perhaps, but they could have filled the time better by just
: showing Darcy and/or Jane.
: anne
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Maybe this was one more of those scenes, used to show that all the world wasn't that affluent, or glittering, or charming or well-mannered?
Marsha
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Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 16:38:22:
: Has anyone else noticed that Miss Bingley is the only one to call Lizzy "Miss Eliza"?
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Sir William?
Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 16:46:14:
: Maybe this was one more of those scenes, used to show that all the world wasn't that affluent, or glittering, or charming or well-mannered?
: Marsha
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But Austen stayed right away from all that. Maybe Davies was flashbacking and thought he was working on Middlemarch. Eliot did include such things.
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Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 17:02:11:
: : -- Why invent the extra snub to Lizzy at Meryton? Just to make sure we get it? Interesting that no chances were taken regarding faithfulness to the original in the invented encounter among Mrs Bennet, Jane, Lizzy, Bingley and Darcy. It almost exactly mirrors Sir William's later suggestion at Lucus Lodge that Darcy to dance with Lizzy.
: :
: : Amy
: :
: "I have not the pleasure of understanding you...Of what are you talking?"
: Ann
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You are right. I suppose I was not very clear. I refer to the part of the Meryton assembly where Mrs Bennet sees that Bingley wants to meet them, gathers Jane and Lizzy to her and proceeds to preside over introductions to her daughters, ultimately urging Darcy to dance with Lizzy. This doesn't happen in the book but it does sound a lot like Sir William's urging of Darcy to dance with Lizzy at Lucus Lodge.
I just remembered something. P&P0 started it. There was a similar line-up with all five girls being introduced. I don't remember if Darcy was involved in the conversation or not.
AMy
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Posted by Donna on October 06, 1996 at 17:17:36:
The whole conversation a Nfield between Elizabeth Bingley and Darcy gets confusing to whom is saying what line.
For instance. "Will it not be advisable. before we proceed on this subject, to arrange with rather more precision the degree of importance which is to appertain to this request, as well as the degree of intimacy subsisting between the parties?"
I think it is Elizabeth but I am not sure.
Donna,
P.S. What the heck are they talking about? Are they making something out of nothing?
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Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 17:27:16:
: P.S. What the heck are they talking about? Are they making something out of nothing?
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Kinda like we do?
By ascertaining characteristics and all that, they are just kidding around and, as you say, making a too-big deal out of the topic to be funny.
It was just nonsensical bantering and did not contribute much to the story except to emphasize how complying Bingley is and how dominating Darcy can be, but we learned all about those things in other ways.
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Posted by Donna on October 06, 1996 at 17:50:47:
: : P.S. What the heck are they talking about? Are they making something out of nothing?
: ___________________
:
: Kinda like we do?
: By ascertaining characteristics and all that, they are just kidding around and, as you say, making a too-big deal out of the topic to be funny.
: It was just nonsensical bantering and did not contribute much to the story except to emphasize how complying Bingley is and how dominating Darcy can be, but we learned all about those things in other ways.
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Thank god for that I had to read that three times.
Donna
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Posted by Stefanie on October 06, 1996 at 17:55:38:
: and Jane makes the statement that even Mr. Darcy may improve on
: : closer acquaintance. This is the same phrase that Lizzy uses later to
: : Mr. Wickham about Darcy. I love these little prophetic utterances.
: : Anne
: ___________________
:
: I like that it makes Jane a little less insipid.
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I think it adds a little credibility to Jane's optimism.
Stefanie
Posted by Stefanie on October 06, 1996 at 17:56:01:
: and Jane makes the statement that even Mr. Darcy may improve on
: : closer acquaintance. This is the same phrase that Lizzy uses later to
: : Mr. Wickham about Darcy. I love these little prophetic utterances.
: : Anne
: ___________________
:
: I like that it makes Jane a little less insipid.
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I think it adds credibility to Jane's optimism.
Stefanie
Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 18:14:41:
: : It was just nonsensical bantering and did not contribute much to the story except to emphasize how complying Bingley is and how dominating Darcy can be, but we learned all about those things in other ways.
:
: ___________________
:
: Thank god for that I had to read that three times.
: Donna
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But you should not believe all my assertions. I am no Austen scholar and often have the minority or oddball opinion. Could be we are both missing some deep consequential meaning here.
Amy
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Posted by Ann on October 06, 1996 at 18:23:04:
In the text Lizzy is used only by her family, and Eliza by
everyone else.
Ann
Posted by kathleen on October 06, 1996 at 18:35:30:
: The whole conversation a Nfield between Elizabeth Bingley and Darcy gets confusing to whom is saying what line.
: For instance. "Will it not be advisable. before we proceed on this subject, to arrange with rather more precision the degree of importance which is to appertain to this request, as well as the degree of intimacy subsisting between the parties?"
: I think it is Elizabeth but I am not sure.
: Donna,
: P.S. What the heck are they talking about? Are they making something out of nothing?
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I believe Darcy says this line. Elizabeth had the paragraph before and Bingley has the paragraph following.
We learn about Bingley and Darcy, of course, w/ a foreshadowing of events to come. But the conversation emphasizes a few things about Elizabeth, too:
- she is bright, and able to hold her own in a discussion/argument w/ Darcy
- she seems to be showing off (for Darcy?) and has a great deal of self-confidence
kathleen
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Posted by Anne on October 06, 1996 at 19:44:38:
: I thought that Adrian Lukis was poorly cast as Wickham. Wickham is meant to be extremely attractive - in the book Mrs Gardiner says that Darcy does not have Wickham's countenance (which natually encompasses more than looks). I felt that if a better looking actor had been cast it would have made Elizabeth's attraction to him more credible (ie blinded by his looks).
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The first time that I saw P&P2 I thought Wickham pleasing.
However in every viewing since then the attraction was gone.
Once I knew his personality I could never look at him the
same - it is so easy to see his swarmy underside that all I
can do is criticize.
And when he walks, especially when he and Lydia return to Longbourn
he looks like he's walking around with a stick up his rear.
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Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 19:56:36:
But the conversation emphasizes a few things about Elizabeth, too:
: - she is bright, and able to hold her own in a discussion/argument w/ Darcy
: - she seems to be showing off (for Darcy?) and has a great deal of self-confidence
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Good point, Kathleen.
Everything seems to balance out, though. We don't get to hear this in the film, but later on during the dance at Netherfield she demonstrates her ability to hold her own -- getting in more a greater percentage of zingers in the film than the book allows her.
Amy
Posted by Marsha on October 06, 1996 at 21:56:07:
It has always struck me as odd, when Mr Bennet said about his daughters something like that they are silly and ignorant like the other girls, but Lizzy got a little more quickness than the rest. Did he include Jane in the silly category? And did he think Lizzy was silly & ignorant' only less so? This suggestion has put me sadly out of countenance. But then, of course he might be saying it just to tease his wife.
Also, I do not understand the rules of introduction at that time. Does anyone know where I could find info, or explain them to me (Now is the time for Mysterious H.C.)
Why were the girls not allowed to see Bingley when he came to pay a return visit. Was it considered proper for the first return visit that the gentleman not see the ladies, unless especially introduced? Was to see the family not necessary? HELP- I am in a dreadful state of perplexity!
Marsha
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Posted by Arnessa on October 06, 1996 at 22:02:43:
: : : It was just nonsensical bantering and did not contribute much to the story except to emphasize how complying Bingley is and how dominating Darcy can be, but we learned all about those things in other ways.
: :
: : ___________________
: :
: : Thank god for that I had to read that three times.
: : Donna
: ___________________
:
: But you should not believe all my assertions. I am no Austen scholar and often have the minority or oddball opinion. Could be we are both missing some deep consequential meaning here.
: Amy
___________________
I'm no Austen scholar either, but I do see some deeper reason for this seemingly inconsequential argument between Darcy and Lizzy. Austen loves to foreshadow events in her novels. She especially loves to make characters say things early on which they will live to regret later. Remember Lizzy's "I may safely promise you NEVER to dance with Mr. Darcy." And this argument about the pliability of Bingley's temper could be seen as a foreshadowing of the ease with which Darcy and the Bingley sisters will be able to persuade Bingley to leave Jane for London. Darcy is saying any friend would be easily able to guide Bingley's decision whether or not to "ride off in a moment." And Lizzy says that to "yeild readily, easily, to the persuasion of a friend" is a good thing. Well, we'll see if she thinks it a good thing when Bingley yields to Darcy's advice and hurts Jane.
I think Austen is getting a real chuckle here because she has Darcy wanting to determine "with a greater degree of precision the importance which is to appertain to this request and the degree of intimacy between the parties," and Lizzy says something like "We may as well wait until the situation arises" before we judge the conduct of the parties. Well, the importance of the request WILL be determined with a greater degree of precision and the situation WILL arises when they both will be able to judge whether Bingley's temper is a benefit or a drawback. Ha! Austen is a genius.
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Posted by Bea on October 06, 1996 at 22:20:22:
The superior sister with the husband, Mr. Hurst, as portrayed in P&P2, did not
seem to have the manners that it would seem necessary to be married to a Superior Sister.
In one scene, he looks drunk, tapping his glass for more wine at the Ball, and
in another, he wakes up from being passed out on the couch to say the Ball was
a waste of time. I guess he had a lot of money and position in the community,
because I did not see him as any great catch! Just think that if these girls were so snobby,
they should have something to be snobby about. Which they didn't. However, money and social
position are intimidating.
Just some thoughts....
Bea
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Posted by Ann on October 06, 1996 at 22:20:57:
At Lucas Lodge we have Darcy looking on in contempt as Lydia,
Kitty, some officers and some of the Lucases take to dancing.
A few minutes later he was presented with Miss Eliza's hand:
"though extremely surprised, was not unwilling to reveive it."
Now if Lizzy were really quick on her feet, she might have
accepted in order to get a man she perceived to be consumed with
pride to prance about someone's parlor with her and her very
silly sisters.
What a blow that would have been to Mr. Darcy's pride. Whenever I
watch that scene, I always picture Lizzy and Darcy joining in the
dance and Miss Bingley's and Mrs. Hurst's horrified reactions to
seeing it!!
Ann
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Posted by Ann on October 06, 1996 at 22:28:26:
Charlotte on falling in love:
"We can all begin freely--a slight preference is natural enough:
but there are very few of us who have heart enough to be really
in love without encouragement."
Darcy seems to be a man who does possess that "utmost force of
passion"--enough to fall in love with Lizzy without encouragement.
But then, he thought she was encouraging him, expecting and
awaiting him. So, was it his pride fancying encouragement when
there was none, or his love ignoring the uncomfortable fact that
she was not encouraging him. (Or was she actually subconciously
encouraging him?)
Ann
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Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 22:29:07:
I wonder about the drunkeness. I don't think Austen ever says he is a drunk, just that he is indolent. There is a reference to a nap (which could be counted as a pass out). Nothing much good to report about him. The closest to neutral is that he looks the gentleman and does deign to bow and say he is pleased Jane is well.
I think a house on Grosvenor St must have been a pretty big deal. Do we ever find out where Darcy's London house is?
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