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Posted by Ramona on October 05, 1996 at 21:57:06:
: __
: : I love this too. Maybe he realizes her Christian charity is superceded by the sovereign importance of condescending to earthly rank.
: : Other great little pieces of business:
: :
Related to this I like when Mr. Collins and Lizzy are walking with Wickham discussing the fireplace at Rosings. Then Wickham says something like "Her ladyship is fond of a good blaze then..."
I always laugh or smile (even now when thinking of it). It's the only worthwhile line said by Wickham in the movie. I love it. It almost makes Mr. Collins speechless too. Oh to be able to say things like that--especially the way Mr. Bennet and Lizzy can come up with them too!
Posted by Anon on October 05, 1996 at 23:33:56:
:
: :
: : : Emma Thompson's adaptation was amazing . . . . It was almost an impressionistic
: : : interpretation of S&S.
: : : Ann
: :
: : ___________________
: : Yes, I felt the same way, but I did not like the adaptation of EMMA as much, because I thought they tilted the line of irony and eccentricity of some of the characters into too much comedy and down-right weirdness. It seemed to be a student imitation of a renaissance painting: nothing is really changed (though a lot deleted) but the shadows, the overtones, the texture, everything that makes it special - most of it is gone. I'm really looking forward to seeing A&E EMMA!
: : Marsha
: ___________________
: Hear, hear! Much as I enjoyed watching EMMA (several times, I admit), I thought the tone was wrong. The casting was generally good, and the film was beautiful to look at, but . . . a jovial Mr. Woodhouse? a too old Jane Fairfax? and an Emma who only wants to bring happiness to Harriet Smith? (Emma's meddling has always seemeed more like the desire to run people's lives to me.) Oh well, it is a good Austen fix until the A&E/BBC version.
: kathleen
For more Jane Austen go to http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Echurchh/ppjalmap.html--this is a map of places real and not in P&P for instance. The Jane Austen mailing list
is http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/austen-l.html
___________________
Follow Ups:
Posted by Anon on October 05, 1996 at 23:35:51:
: :
: : :
: : : : Emma Thompson's adaptation was amazing . . . . It was almost an impressionistic
: : : : interpretation of S&S.
: : : : Ann
: : :
: : : ___________________
: : : Yes, I felt the same way, but I did not like the adaptation of EMMA as much, because I thought they tilted the line of irony and eccentricity of some of the characters into too much comedy and down-right weirdness. It seemed to be a student imitation of a renaissance painting: nothing is really changed (though a lot deleted) but the shadows, the overtones, the texture, everything that makes it special - most of it is gone. I'm really looking forward to seeing A&E EMMA!
: : : Marsha
: : ___________________
: : Hear, hear! Much as I enjoyed watching EMMA (several times, I admit), I thought the tone was wrong. The casting was generally good, and the film was beautiful to look at, but . . . a jovial Mr. Woodhouse? a too old Jane Fairfax? and an Emma who only wants to bring happiness to Harriet Smith? (Emma's meddling has always seemeed more like the desire to run people's lives to me.) Oh well, it is a good Austen fix until the A&E/BBC version.
: : kathleen
: For more Jane Austen go to http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Echu
: rchh/ppja/map.html--this is a map of places real and not in P&P for instance. The Jane Austen mailing list
: is http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~church/austen-l.html>___________________
___________________
Posted by Cheryl on October 06, 1996 at 00:05:30:
She was
: not a romantic writer, like for example the Brontes, and
: did not like to write romantic dialouge. Therefore, every
: time the characters begin to speak of their love for
: eachother--the climax in any adaptation--she tends not to give
: us a single word of what they are actually saying to one
: another, only what they are thinking or a thumbnail sketch
: of their words.
This has always frustrated me when reading the novels- I *want* to know what they have to say to each other. The worst of the lot from that stand point is Emma. Mr. Knightly has just professed his love and what does Jane give us (I'm paraphrasing here, I don't have to novel in front of me): "And what did Emma say upon being thus entreated? Why, exactly what she should, a lady always does." Arrggghhh!!
But in P&P we have two wonderfully long scenes after the second proposal where Darcy and Lizzy express their love and review their long journey towards happiness. Very satisfying.
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
Posted by Cheryl on October 06, 1996 at 00:23:16:
The Meryton Assembly Ball is one of those instances where the film does a better job portraying events than does the book. The book devotes one small chapter to it, but it is of such importance; it sets up so many future events that I really enjoy the added expanse and scope given it by the film.
I love the facial expressions of Darcy and Lizzy, especially in connection with the imfamous snub. Lizzy is hurt but very soon sees the absurdity of Darcy's pride and has a good laugh over it with Charlotte. When she passes in front of Darcy, his eyes follow her and he hears her laughter (at his expense, he knows) he is intrigued, and his interest immediately piqued. Wonderful scene, I smile all through it.
But I like the post- assembly ball scenes in the book better- especially the discussions with Charlotte where Lizzy admits that she could easily forgive his pride if he had not wounded hers. Very telling moment.
Cheryl
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Posted by THe Mysterious H.C. on October 06, 1996 at 00:32:01:
: : Hey, you left out the nation's largest Uralic Studies program at Indiana University.
: Oh, Lord. Henry, you are such a nerd*.
: Only you would know about something like that. Not only did I not know IU had such a department, I barely can guess what it is.
: *Mind you I find some nerds quite charming, especially Jeff Goldblum types
Follow Ups:
Posted by Raphael on October 06, 1996 at 00:33:31:
: Raphael, I like your testimony, inconclusive as it is. Maybe we will never know. Question. What do you mean by scope?
: Amy
___________________
With 300 minutes on our hands (without A&E's tampering hands!)
and the sophisticated handling of the director and teleplay writer,
not only are we allowed to meet such a large cast of endearing,
wonderful characters, but we're able to, verily, become involved in
their lives with them. We learn their customs, their habits, their
quibbles and neighbors and shops and servants and mannerisms -- in
short, all those peripheral components that make up not just a plot,
but a world. That is what I mean, in a rambling way, when I refer to
*scope*.
Character and scope sort of go hand in hand -- because the one offers
us windows into the other, and it is the sum of both those parts that
make the production so positively attractive.
I should also like to add that all Austen novels, and consequently their
appropriate adaptions, have a certain ambience and style to them that no
other novelist I have ever read does. Her take on life, her own signature
feeling and attitude, must be what make her stories so attractive, so
endearing. It is that feeling which permeates P&P2, and it's a very positive
feeling, to me.
Do others agree or am I verging on the ridiculous?
Cordially,
Raphael
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Posted by Cheryl on October 06, 1996 at 00:41:17:
Miss Bingly and Mrs. Hurst are a hoot to watch in this adaptation. Their oh so superior airs, the utter disdain and comtempt they in which theyhold the inhabitants of Meryton, Miss Bingly's pathetic chasing of Darcy are all great fun to watch and I bet the actors had a marvelous time with their roles. But I do not laugh at them when I read the book, where they come off not as comical but as cruel, especially in their treatment of Jane during her illness. They are all politeness when condoling with the invalid (even though, we learn, they only do it out of boredom because the men are out shooting) but the moment they leave the sickroom, Jane is forgotten and her family and relations are abused for sport. I enjoy *watching* the superior sisters, but would not be able stay in the same house with them without smacking them!
Cheryl
Follow Ups:
Posted by Raphael on October 06, 1996 at 00:57:29:
: She was not a romantic writer, like for example the Brontes, and
: did not like to write romantic dialouge. Therefore, every
: time the characters begin to speak of their love for
: eachother--the climax in any adaptation--she tends not to give
: us a single word of what they are actually saying to one
: another, only what they are thinking or a thumbnail sketch
: of their words.
It's very difficult. There is a fine line between inspiration
and offense. To remain true while at the same time creating a large
bulk of original material is quite a mammoth undertaking. Andrew Davies
didn't really suffer from this dilemma. Despite what I've heard of P&P2
being not very close to the original, I think it very, very close -- far
closer than most adaptions. Not like poor Thompson's dilemma in S&S.
Unless I'm very much mistaken, he had very little original dialogue to
create in P&P2.
However, with many screenwriters, the ultimate goal is often to convey as
much emotional intent, as much meaning, through visuals -- facial expressions
and the like -- as possible. You can't do it altogether that way, but facial
expressions conveying love and affection are so much more understated, and, I
think, revealing than merely expository professions. Otherwise you run the risk
of really turning Austen into a "romance" in the more conventional, contemporary
sense of the word. With a novelist so surprisingly adept at wit and subtlety,
this would be a tragedy indeed (with confessions to any contemporary romance fans
in residence), because these books are as much comedies of manners as they are
love stories.
An excellent example of the use of facial expressions to convey meaning are
the adoring stares of Darcy at the various early balls in P&P2. We understand, we
gain insight, but we're not lectured.
: Emma Thompson's adaptation was amazing to me, because so
: little of what ended up on the screen was actually in the
: book, but the characters, the texture, and the emotion of
: the story were all there. It was almost an impressionistic
: interpretation of S&S.
It was really superb. I've analyzed it again and again. I've watched
it many times while holding the screenplay in front of me. Never has
an Oscar been more deservingly bestowed. One of the most wonderful
examples of Thompson's own wit is Margaret. Did you notice? Here was a
character with almost no interesting features in Austen's book, and almost
no lines, and suddenly she has blossomed into a funny, quirky, amusing and
endearing girl whose own personal "arc" subtly draws together Edward and
Elinor. You're right, though, it seemed "faithful" while at the same time
being quite different. I still am in awe after all these months.
Cordially,
Raphael
Posted by Raphael on October 06, 1996 at 01:13:07:
: Hear, hear! Much as I enjoyed watching EMMA (several times, I admit), I thought the tone was wrong. The casting was generally good, and the film was beautiful to look at, but . . . a jovial Mr. Woodhouse? a too old Jane Fairfax? and an Emma who only wants to bring happiness to Harriet Smith? (Emma's meddling has always seemeed more like the desire to run people's lives to me.) Oh well, it is a good Austen fix until the A&E/BBC version.
: kathleen
___________________
I agree. The greatest flaw in the film was the screenplay.
Certain aspects were sloppy and inconsistent -- the timing
in the first twenty minutes was bewildering, and in my humble
opinion the finale where Knightley and Emma profess their love
was constrained and overdone. Douglas McGrath did a far better
job under the helm of director than of screenwriter. There was
nothing in his screenplay which was as inspired as the book should
demand.
However, you are very right -- it was beautiful to look at. But I
would also add that Gwyneth Paltrow was marvelous, and so was
Sophie Thompson and Phyllida Law (Emma Thompson's sister and mother,
I believe?). I really enjoyed the movie, but I was disappointed with
the screenplay. I suppose -- how can one help it, after S&S and P&P2?!
Cordially,
Raphael
Posted by Ann on October 06, 1996 at 01:27:43:
: This has always frustrated me when reading the novels- I *want* to know what they have to say to each other. The worst of the lot from that stand point is Emma. Mr. Knightly has just professed his love and what does Jane give us (I'm paraphrasing here, I don't have to novel in front of me): "And what did Emma say upon being thus entreated? Why, exactly what she should, a lady always does." Arrggghhh!!
I agree, that line in Emma is increadibly frustrating.
Especially from nearly 2 Centuries later.
I have no idea what a lady of the early eighteen hundreds
would have said!
Ann
Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 04:24:27:
: It has to do with Hungarian and Central Asian languages and cultures (sort of tangentially related to my own field of study, in a way).
: But I won't take offense at the epithet "nerd" if you'll admit to being a "lady eccentric".
___________________
I know I am an eccentric and honor it. I only wish the world did. What do you study anyway. I suppose I always assumed it was English literature.
Amy
Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 06:11:29:
: But I like the post- assembly ball scenes in the book better- especially the discussions with Charlotte where Lizzy admits that she could easily forgive his pride if he had not wounded hers. Very telling moment.
: Cheryl
___________________
There's a great bit in the book during the post-mortum that I had forgotten about. A Lucus kid tells how he would drink a bottle of wine every day were he so rich. Mrs Bennet persists in arguing with him about it until Lucus departure time, showing again how immature she is. Davies tells us the same thing mostly through her girlish shrieks with Lydia.
Posted by kathleen on October 06, 1996 at 06:16:56:
: I should also like to add that all Austen novels, and consequently their
: appropriate adaptions, have a certain ambience and style to them that no
: other novelist I have ever read does. Her take on life, her own signature
: feeling and attitude, must be what make her stories so attractive, so
: endearing. It is that feeling which permeates P&P2, and it's a very positive
: feeling, to me.
: Do others agree or am I verging on the ridiculous?
: Cordially,
: Raphael
___________________
Ridiculous! Heavens no! I think you have captured the essence of Jane Austen's novels very well.
I only wish I had said it. I agree that it is not just the story she tells, but her way of telling it -- her own
signature, as you say.
kathleen
Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 06:17:47:
I wonder why Davies (or whomever) decided to omit the information that the Bingley fortune was acuqired through trade. Did they think it was a twist we wouldn't be able to understand?
Davies or whomever. Raphael, you know something about the business. TV is a producer's medium so I assume we cannot necessarily assume Davies had all responsbility for the decisions made about leaving things out or putting in extra touches. Right? Or no?
Amy
Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 06:42:44:
I like the topical way Cheryl started us off on disucssion of the first tape and its accompanying 12 chapters.
Though I know none us of will have any trouble coming up with topics, here are a few more conversation starters.
We could talk about:
-- Ann's observation that Austen abandons the screenwriter. I agree. I wonder if she was uncomfortable with dialog, or if it was simply not so fashionable in her time to spell out conversations. Nevertheless Davies does such a nice job of filling in the dialog. An example:
| Austen | Mr Bennet protested against any description of the finery |
| Davies | "No lace, Mrs Bennet! I beg you." |
-- A nice job done generally with shortening speeches from three or four sentences to one.
-- Use of facial expressions to sketch characters and their opinions of the other characters. First example: Lizzy and her father's eyebrow raising through the window when Lizzy returns from her walk.
-- What about the decision to start the film with Darcy and Bingley rather than the Bennets? Makes sense. Their coming into the neighborhood starts everything.
-- Why invent the extra snub to Lizzy at Meryton? Just to make sure we get it? Interesting that no chances were taken regarding faithfulness to the original in the invented encounter among Mrs Bennet, Jane, Lizzy, Bingley and Darcy. It almost exactly mirrors Sir William's later suggestion at Lucus Lodge that Darcy to dance with Lizzy.
Amy
Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 06:51:51:
Here is HC's annotated online P&P text.
Link:
Posted by Amy on October 06, 1996 at 07:06:30:
I love this:
``What can be the meaning of that emphatic exclamation?'' cried he. ``Do you consider the forms of introduction, and the stress that is laid on them, as nonsense? I cannot quite agree with you there. What say you, Mary? for you are a young lady of deep reflection I know, and read great books, and make extracts.''Mary wished to say something very sensible, but knew not how.
``While Mary is adjusting her ideas,'' he continued, ``let us return to Mr. Bingley."
Mr Bennet may have neglected his younger children but he was under no illusions about them. She's deep but not very quick. Makes extracts but is quite incapable of arriving at an original idea.
Is that what we are doing here? Making extracts?
BTW, was there any difference in Austen's era between:
"having wit," and "being clever?" Darcy is clever, Bingley not. Lizzy is the only clever daughter. And how is the all important Understanding related to wit and cleverness?
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by kathleen on October 06, 1996 at 08:54:04:
I know it's necessary to invent some dialogue and omit other pieces of from the novel. Having said that, however, I do wonder at the omission of the last bit of Miss Bingley's response to Darcy's "fine eyes" comment. In the novel she manages to maintain her composure and tease; in P&P2 she comes across as personally insulted or desparate.
What do you think?
kathleen
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