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Posted by Laura on September 20, 1996 at 12:24:53:
: : Has anyone seen the 1987 version of Pride and Prejudice? I guess it wuld be P&P1.
: : If you have, could you let me know how it was in comparison to P&P2, beacause I am debating whether I should watch it or no.
: : Stefanie
: I was very disappointed in the 1987 version. It's not even in
: the same class as P & P2! Myy good opinion, though, is that P & P2
: is a masterpiece. The only thing I liked better in the '87
: version is that the large painting of Darcy was closer to the
: original.
This version was made in 1979, but not shown in the US until 1987. For the time period it was made, it is a definite good piece of work. Laura
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on September 20, 1996 at 12:28:13:
Ann,
You must be on right now. If I were really ambitious I would figure out a way to do chat when we discover this.
: The one where Wickham says: "There is one woman whom I would
: be loathe to part with". Then he turns and looks at Lydia.
: That's not how it happens the first time around.
Okay. Now I know. Yes! You are right. He says the line, but Lydia is not so near in the original scene. And in every other scene he treats Lydia like a kid. The variation must mean Lizzy is trying to puzzle through how it really was?
There's another imagined scene where Darcy and the Bingley sisters are wagging their fingers at Bingley, looking down at him as Lizzy is "seeing" how he must have been dissuaded from his hankering for Jane. I thought that the high camera angle was a neat trick for showing how Lizzy's perception was skewed and subjective about and against Darcy and the evil sisters.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Ann on September 20, 1996 at 12:32:11:
: Ann,
: You must be on right now. If I were really ambitious I would figure out a way to do chat when we discover this.
: : The one where Wickham says: "There is one woman whom I would
: : be loathe to part with". Then he turns and looks at Lydia.
: : That's not how it happens the first time around.
:
: Okay. Now I know. Yes! You are right. He says the line, but Lydia is not so near in the original scene. And in every other scene he treats Lydia like a kid. The variation must mean Lizzy is trying to puzzle through how it really was?
: There's another imagined scene where Darcy and the Bingley sisters are wagging their fingers at Bingley, looking down at him as Lizzy is "seeing" how he must have been dissuaded from his hankering for Jane. I thought that the high camera angle was a neat trick for showing how Lizzy's perception was skewed and subjective about and against Darcy and the evil sisters.
: Amy
As for skewed camera angles: I didn't think the one used when
Darcy returns to his room after being rejected quite worked.
The camera is down low and looks up his nostrils.
Ann
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on September 20, 1996 at 12:55:44:
: When this board first went up, I reposted a couple of Lisa Warrington's long essays to the Firthlist to get some content going. Since the topic has come around again, I'll put up Lisa's P&P 1&2 comparison piece permanently. For future reference, after this message goes away, it will be linked from the FAQ under the "Numbering system" question.
I have not seen the early version of P&P, but Lisa has expressed P&P2
so well. It is perfect. The only scene that really was really so cute is and not easily notced. Is
at Pemberly while they were walking is when Lizzie's bow would catch the breeze and brush across the front of Mr. Darcy.
It was also timed to the music. It was so romantic. Maybe you haven't
noticed this scene but maybe you all have.
Donna
Posted by The Mysterious H.C. on September 20, 1996 at 13:10:00:
John wrote:
: Maybe it would be interesting to think of P&P as the first of the "How to Marry a Millionaire" pictures.
: In the fifties there were a string of truly distinct movies (musicals actually, mainly from Fox) about some penurious young women
: who set their caps to land millionaires. "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" is the brillian example and it was followed
: by "Gentlemen Marry Brunettes" and even one straight-out called "How to Marry a Millionaire".
: Does enyone else remember these movies?
: The topic for discussion would be, perhaps, 150 years later (at least until the women's movement) had very much changed?
Well, we know what Marianne Dashwood would say about that:
``That is an expression, Sir John,'' said Marianne warmly, ``which I particularly dislike. I abhor every common-place phrase by which wit is intended; and "setting one's cap at a man," or "making a conquest," are the most odious of all.
Their tendency is gross and illiberal; and if their construction could ever be deemed clever, time has long ago destroyed all its ingenuity.''
So there!
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on September 20, 1996 at 13:55:40:
Great reference, Henry. Like the picture too.
The young ladies must have felt defensive about their material needs. But, you know, you think about how many of us today measure our worth with the yardstick of income. It is one of the few objective numerical measures there are. In their day the only way they could get there was through marriage or sticking with a fortunate family of origin as a spinster. I don't blame the women for "setting their caps," nor do I find it unusual that they would get "warm" to hear it spoken of out loud.
Amy
Posted by Donna on September 20, 1996 at 13:57:36:
: : Ann,
: : You must be on right now. If I were really ambitious I would figure out a way to do chat when we discover this.
: : : The one where Wickham says: "There is one woman whom I would
: : : be loathe to part with". Then he turns and looks at Lydia.
: : : That's not how it happens the first time around.
: :
: : Okay. Now I know. Yes! You are right. He says the line, but Lydia is not so near in the original scene. And in every other scene he treats Lydia like a kid. The variation must mean Lizzy is trying to puzzle through how it really was?
: : There's another imagined scene where Darcy and the Bingley sisters are wagging their fingers at Bingley, looking down at him as Lizzy is "seeing" how he must have been dissuaded from his hankering for Jane. I thought that the high camera angle was a neat trick for showing how Lizzy's perception was skewed and subjective about and against Darcy and the evil sisters.
: : Amy
: As for skewed camera angles: I didn't think the one used when
: Darcy returns to his room after being rejected quite worked.
: The camera is down low and looks up his nostrils.
: Ann
I noticed that scene also because Lydia has shown only a little
bit of interest {maybe thats all it took }in Wickham when they
first meet in town and when she inquires "Why should you feel sorry
for Mr. Wickham Lizzie."Maybe they should of used this as a flashback.
The other was not even thought of in my mind only after you knew she
eloped with him. The other thing I got from that is Wickham was leading
{and lying}Lydia on as well as Lizzie.
Then I wonder did she hear what he said to Lizzie but didn't care.
As for the nostril shot I agree. I wanted to see more of {the surrounding
room}him walking but maybe this was to feel more dramatic. They also should of
enlarged the shot were he is writing the letter. I think it would have add
something to the whole prospect.
Donna
Follow Ups:
Posted by Donna on September 20, 1996 at 14:07:30:
: : : Ann,
: : : You must be on right now. If I were really ambitious I would figure out a way to do chat when we discover this.
: : : : The one where Wickham says: "There is one woman whom I would
: : : : be loathe to part with". Then he turns and looks at Lydia.
: : : : That's not how it happens the first time around.
: : :
: : : Okay. Now I know. Yes! You are right. He says the line, but Lydia is not so near in the original scene. And in every other scene he treats Lydia like a kid. The variation must mean Lizzy is trying to puzzle through how it really was?
: : : There's another imagined scene where Darcy and the Bingley sisters are wagging their fingers at Bingley, looking down at him as Lizzy is "seeing" how he must have been dissuaded from his hankering for Jane. I thought that the high camera angle was a neat trick for showing how Lizzy's perception was skewed and subjective about and against Darcy and the evil sisters.
: : : Amy
: : As for skewed camera angles: I didn't think the one used when
: : Darcy returns to his room after being rejected quite worked.
: : The camera is down low and looks up his nostrils.
: : Ann
:
: I noticed that scene also because Lydia has shown only a little
: bit of interest {maybe thats all it took }in Wickham when they
: first meet in town and when she inquires "Why should you feel sorry
: for Mr. Wickham Lizzie."Maybe they should of used this as a flashback.
: The other was not even thought of in my mind only after you knew she
: eloped with him. The other thing I got from that is Wickham was leading
: {and lying}Lydia on as well as Lizzie.
: Then I wonder did she hear what he said to Lizzie but didn't care.
: As for the nostril shot I agree. I wanted to see more of {the surrounding
: room}him walking but maybe this was to feel more dramatic. They also should of
: enlarged the shot were he is writing the letter. I think it would have add
: something to the whole prospect.
:
: Donna
P.S. The scene changes were to fast.
Donna
Posted by Donna on September 20, 1996 at 15:59:59:
: : : Ann,
: : : You must be on right now. If I were really ambitious I would figure out a way to do chat when we discover this.
: : : : The one where Wickham says: "There is one woman whom I would
: : : : be loathe to part with". Then he turns and looks at Lydia.
: : : : That's not how it happens the first time around.
: : :
: : : Okay. Now I know. Yes! You are right. He says the line, but Lydia is not so near in the original scene. And in every other scene he treats Lydia like a kid. The variation must mean Lizzy is trying to puzzle through how it really was?
: : : There's another imagined scene where Darcy and the Bingley sisters are wagging their fingers at Bingley, looking down at him as Lizzy is "seeing" how he must have been dissuaded from his hankering for Jane. I thought that the high camera angle was a neat trick for showing how Lizzy's perception was skewed and subjective about and against Darcy and the evil sisters.
: : : Amy
: : As for skewed camera angles: I didn't think the one used when
: : Darcy returns to his room after being rejected quite worked.
: : The camera is down low and looks up his nostrils.
: : Ann
:
: I noticed that scene also because Lydia has shown only a little
: bit of interest {maybe thats all it took }in Wickham when they
: first meet in town and when she inquires "Why should you feel sorry
: for Mr. Wickham Lizzie."Maybe they should of used this as a flashback.
: The other was not even thought of in my mind only after you knew she
: eloped with him. The other thing I got from that is Wickham was leading
: {and lying}Lydia on as well as Lizzie.
: Then I wonder did she hear what he said to Lizzie but didn't care.
: As for the nostril shot I agree. I wanted to see more of {the surrounding
: room}him walking but maybe this was to feel more dramatic. They also should of
: enlarged the shot were he is writing the letter. I think it would have add
: something to the whole prospect.
:
: Donna
P.S. The camera moved to fast through the scenes.
Posted by Jane on September 20, 1996 at 16:01:32:
The Mysterious H.C. quotes Miss Marianne Dashwood:
:
``That is an expression, Sir John,'' said Marianne warmly, ``which I particularly dislike. I abhor every common-place phrase by which wit is intended; and "setting one's cap at a man," or "making a conquest," are the most odious of all.
: Their tendency is gross and illiberal; and if their construction could ever be deemed clever, time has long ago destroyed all its ingenuity.''
I have no doubt of Miss Marianne's sincerity. Nonetheless, cap set or not, she fell in love with a very rich man and eventually married a quite rich man, too. (I won't say whether she fell in love with Brandon or was given a little push---I could find much said already in the Austen-L archives). How convenient, as her idea of the minimum to live on is Elinor's idea of riches.
Jane
Posted by Raphael on September 20, 1996 at 16:11:52:
Andrew Davies and the director both, in my opinion, made the
mistake of having the connection between Lydia and Wickham too
subtle. In the book, Austen tells us repeatedly during the first
weeks of Wickham's presence (when everyone is quite taken with him)
that both Lydia and Kitty are smitten by him. In fact, he's all they
talk about, as the best gentleman among their beloved soldiers. In
the mini-series, however, we never get even a hint of that. Lydia is
obviously and wholly preoccupied with any (and every) other soldier.
Wickham is obviously left to the attentions of Lizzy, in direct contrast
to the book (although I think we get one slight comment by Lydia in
reference to one of the dances where she tells Lizzy she hopes she won't
keep Wickham all to herself, as Lydia wanted to dance with him too).
But I think the point of the scene was this: namely that Lizzy was too
PREJUDICED (as she is wont to be) of Wickham's attentions to notice that
he is referring to anyone but herself. Instead of using straight exposition,
which screenwriters and teleplay writers are loath to do, we are left to
realize that Wickham had his attentions on Lydia all along by a very physical
look. It's a bit surprising, but then, I think it's supposed to be, because
Lizzy's forced with some shock to realize that she's been led along by a
misconception.
Wickham, loving idle pleasure, chose to toy with Lizzy with no other designs
than amusement. He is easily the P&P version of Willoughby. That must have
been extremely annoying and humiliating for Lizzy to discover, because it was
obvious that she had been taken by Wickham's false pretensions.
Cordially,
Raphael
Posted by Raphael on September 20, 1996 at 16:35:00:
: On the official web site for the show, Andrew Davies says that
: he intentionally cut out everything after she accepts him, so
: in the show we never hear any of their discussions once they
: have come together at last. Davies said that once they get together
: that's the end, bring down the curtain and go home. I disagree
: with him. After spending 5 hours watching them sparring with
: eachother we need an opportunity to see them finaly on good
: terms. I would liked too have seen the remaining scenes.
Very much. It is a standard opinion with screen/telewriters that
when the "finale" of a story is reached, only a couple pages are
allowable for resolve/return to a new equilibrium, and then credits
roll. It's silly in this case that Davies is sticking to that opinion
because this is not your standard screen drama (5 hours!). I agree with
you very much that he should have continued to write. We need that.
Besides, the ending as it progresses in the book is infinitely more
satisfying than that in the mini-series. We understand things so much
more properly in it. Now, perhaps it went on TOO long to make a proper
teleplay, but instead of cutting out the whole thing, Davies should have
trimmed it and honed it in. Oh, well. P&P2 is a masterpiece; this is a
small problem, and it's one of the only ones I have.
: Whenever I watch the dance scene I can't help but think it must
: have been absolutely impossible to film and edit. Look at the
: number of cameras and people all choreographed together. It
: must have taken forever to get through.
: Ann
It's probably part of the reason why it's so marvelous, that it's
such a cinematic feat. Are you familiar with the filmmaking process?
The actors, in addition to concentrating on the dance steps, and also
on ACTING their characters (gee), the entire floor is marked out in tape
as to where to step when and how; the director is usually yelling voice
cues from a megaphone (which will be dubbed out later); and, worst of all,
there are very specific "look spots" where the actors have to direct their
eyes at all times, usually a series of them over the course of the scene.
In addition you have a dolleyed camera trucking past the actors, very close,
and additionally the scene has to be filmed at least six times. I wouldn't
be surprised if the entire sequence wasn't acted out two dozen times or more.
It's a two-shot, and certainly no more than two cameras (probably one) could be
shooting each take. Marvelous, wonderful, and easily as cinematically
brilliant as anything Douglas McGrath or Ang Lee performed.
The only one cinematic drawback to P&P2 -- one over which the crew had
no control -- was that television's frame disposition is almost square,
something against our eyes' perceptions of comfort and grace. In contrast
films today usually use a ratio of 1:1.85, i.e. wide-screen, which is
deliciously cinematic. If only the P&P2 crew had had that opportunity! the
scene might have even been -- gasp -- better!
Cordially,
Raphael
Follow Ups:
Posted by Marsha on September 20, 1996 at 19:08:34:
: Ramona,
: Thanks for bringing up a book and movie I love. The book was my favorite Jane Austen novel, although on recent rereadings P &P is hard to beat---and from the Austen-L, I am also appreciating Emma and Mansfield Park more than before). Persuasion has fewer details and plot intricacies than the other Austen novels, but zeroes in on Anne1s sense of loss and regret, at first painfully but ultimately with redemption . Not everyone has a major loss like Anne, but we can all relate to making mistakes or even sensible decisions that we later regret. Anne copes stoically on the outside, but is full of feeling underneath---we all know at least a bit what she feels like. I also love that she is an older and wiser heroine (although as I am 38, she still seems very young to me---but is certainly old in Austen-heroine terms, especially to be unmarried in those days). Elizabeth Bennet is full of spark and beauty, but Anne is a bit worn out, and her charm requires more character to appreciate. That sense that a mistake can be corrected--that Anne and Wentworth have a second chance at happiness--is irresistable to me. As far as heroes go, I like the way Wentworth works hard for a living---less time to fence and take baths than our Darcy.
: As for the movie, the beginning would be a bit confusing if one hadn1t read the book, but I was transported into the book without anything to jar me out. I liked the way no one was Hollywood-beautiful, but more like people I know (I don1t know anyone as gorgeous as Firth1s Darcy, but I know men as handsome as Hinds1s Wentworth). That1s enough, Jane
I am a student at Cornell, and just discovered this page. can anyone tell me when "Persuasion" is going to be showing on PBS or/and where I could get a copy?
P.S. Thanks for the most fun hour I had reading all the messages. (Yes, I am P&P2 fan, too)
Follow Ups:
Posted by Matthew on September 20, 1996 at 21:02:56:
: : : Has anyone seen the 1987 version of Pride and Prejudice? I guess it wuld be P&P1.
: : : If you have, could you let me know how it was in comparison to P&P2, beacause I am debating whether I should watch it or no.
: : : Stefanie
: : I was very disappointed in the 1987 version. It's not even in
: : the same class as P & P2! Myy good opinion, though, is that P & P2
: : is a masterpiece. The only thing I liked better in the '87
: : version is that the large painting of Darcy was closer to the
: : original.
:
: This version was made in 1979, but not shown in the US until 1987. For the time period it was made, it is a definite good piece of work. Laura
Laura. I am confused as to the numbering system used here. W.R.T. the "1987 movie version of P&P", that was filmed in 1979..... Is this the same as the BBC mini-series that was shown on Masterpiece Theatre on PBS in 1979? Please help me, here. I watched this version, and fell in love with Jane Austen as a result. Is there another version (Apart from the Olivier movie) that i have missed? Yours uncertainly, Matthew..........
Follow Ups:
Posted by Amy on September 20, 1996 at 22:12:39:
>>>>>"1987 movie version of P&P", that was filmed in 1979..... Is this the same as the BBC mini-series that was shown on Masterpiece Theatre on PBS in 1979?
There are only the three so far as I have ever heard. See FAQ.
My wild guess is the discrepency in dates is due to the fact that the mini was made for TV and later distributed on video. Another example: a few weeks ago I rented a TV movie variation of the Caine Mutiny* (directed by Robert Altman!) shown first on network TV several years before it was released on video.
Amy
Posted by Amy on September 20, 1996 at 23:04:35:
If anybody wants to do this virtual viewing, I propose continuing to try it every other week. What if we decide on the next one by Tuesday, 9/24 and begin the discussion on Sunday 9/29?
Here are the recent suggestions:
Have you people discussed any other CF movies? I have seen The Advocate, A Month in the country, Another country
and Playmaker, and wouldn't mind having a chat about them.
-- Hat
Maybe it would be interesting to think of P&P as the first of the "How to Marry a Millionaire" pictures. In the fifties there were a string of truly distinct movies (musicals actually, mainly from Fox) about some penurious young women who set their caps to land millionaires. "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" is the brillian example and it was followed by "Gentlemen Marry Brunettes" and even one straight-out called "How to Marry a Millionaire".
Does enyone else remember these movies? The topic for discussion would be, perhaps, 150 years later (at least until the women's movement) had very much changed?
-- John
How about the next movie be P&P1. And we can really compare the two versions.
-- Laura
And let me add the two suggestions from last time that got votes:
The Razor's Edge (Tyrone Power version)
Twelve Angry Men
Put up any other nominations real soon so we can come to some consensus by Tuesday.
Amy
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on September 21, 1996 at 00:09:48:
: Amy:
But I don't know if I would go so far as to rate his estimation of Lizzy's for him regard as ambiguous. He still isn't all the way sure she has changed her view of him. But I get the feeling that Davies wants us to believe that Darcy is pleased with the encounter -- and quite encouraged.
Oh yes, he is definitely encouraged - as she said to him in Chapter 60, "my behavior to you was at least always bordering on the uncivil, and I never spoke to you without rather wishing to give you pain than not." These meetings in Darbyshire are the first ever in which she has *not* done this.
And she did allow him to introduce his sister to her - which she could not have been expected to do if she still felt as she had when she refused him.
He certainly has had enough encouragement to head for Lambton at the earliest opportunity the next morning, and had the mail not arrived for another few hours and had he received the slightest encouragement, he might indeed have renewed his proposal that morning.
But when alone with their own thoughts, *neither* of them yet quite dares to believe that the other is being anything more than civil. He no longer "sees" her as _dis_approving, but can not yet convince himself that she now approves of him and would welcome his addresses.
Joan, too
Posted by Joan, too on September 21, 1996 at 00:56:57:
: : Raphael:
: : Andrew Davies and the director both, in my opinion, made the mistake of having the connection between Lydia and Wickham too subtle. In the book, Austen tells us repeatedly during the first weeks of Wickham's presence (when everyone is quite taken with him) that both Lydia and Kitty are smitten by him. In fact, he's all they talk about, as the best gentleman among their beloved soldiers. In the mini-series, however, we never get even a hint of that.
Well, perhaps it is a bit subtle, but there are a several references indicating that Wickham is much on Lydia's mind. When Lydia, Lizzie and Kitty go into town and meet the officers (whom they then take home to tea), Lydia notices Wickham and makes comments about Lizzie being violently in love with him, causing her to ask Lydia to lower her voice. In the "winter" scene we hear Lydia complaining about plain Mary King taking Wickham out of circulation with her ten thousand pounds. When Lydia and Wickham meet Lizzie and Maria at the post stop and treat them to lunch, she is eager to report that Wickham is now available again.
: : Raphael:
: : Lydia is obviously and wholly preoccupied with any (and every) other soldier. Wickham is obviously left to the attentions of Lizzy, [snip]
: Donna:
: The other thing I got from that is Wickham was leading {and lying} Lydia on as well as Lizzie.
I agree - I think that Wickham was probably playing *all* of the ladies against one another. (Mrs. Phillips later reports that there was not a daughter in the town he had not meddled with.) He "complains" to Lizzie about how difficult it was to escape from her younger sisters, but the rat probably told Lydia how hard it was to escape from Lizzie when he danced with her. And Wickham mentions Lydia, too, from time to time - when describing Miss Darcy to Lizzie, he says that Georgiana is the same age as Lydia...
: : Raphael:
: : Wickham, loving idle pleasure, chose to toy with Lizzy with no other designs than amusement.
Right - and he never did pretend (even to her) that he had "honorable" intentions towards her, though in a scene cut from the A&E broadcast he did tell Lizzie that if things had been otherwise and he had had money, she would have been his choice.
: : That must have been extremely annoying and humiliating for Lizzy to discover, because it was obvious that she had been taken by Wickham's false pretensions.
On the contrary, in the cut fragment, after Wickham makes the above declaration, Lizzie genuinely wishes him happiness with Mary King and observes that Jane would be proud of her for her forbearance.
Some of these cuts really did affect the accuracy of the illustration of the characters - in general, the screen play does not waste time on unnecesary dialog, and in the effort to include as much as possible of the original, points upon which JA expounded at length were reduced to single lines of dialog - which, if cut, *do* make a difference in how the audience perceives the characters.
: Donna:
: As for the nostril shot I agree. I wanted to see more of {the surrounding
room} him walking but maybe this was to feel more dramatic.
The camera work that I give the lowest marks to is in the second proposal. The shots were much too tight, often cutting Darcy's or Lizzie's face in half, and at times fully half of the screen was nothing but a vast expanse of grey waistcoat. That was one scene in which it really was important to be able to see both character's faces when both were in the same shot.
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on September 21, 1996 at 01:12:07:
: Raphael:
: In addition you have a dolleyed camera trucking past the actors, very close,
And they also had a "steadycam" in there - one mounted on the person of a cameraman - weaving in and out among the dancers...
There is, however, one error in that scene. If you refer to the graphic of the notation for Mr. Beveridge's Maggot that Amy posted somehwere a few days ago, an extra repetition of the first line gets in at the point at which the camera cuts away and shows the "dance band" playing. If they had been filming the dancers at the time, the figure would not have worked out right!
Joan, too
Follow Ups:
Posted by Joan, too on September 21, 1996 at 02:08:54:
To quote myself:
: There is, however, one error in that scene. If you refer to the graphic of the notation for Mr. Beveridge's Maggot that Amy posted somewhere a few days ago, an extra repetition of the first line...
Pardon me, I misspoke - it is only 2 bars of the first line, not the entire first line that has an extra - which makes the full dance figure take 18 bars instead of 16.
Joan, too
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