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Posted by Chris on September 19, 1996 at 15:11:17:
: I think everyone undervalues the first scene at Hunsford when
: Darcy calls on Elizabeth alone.
: It is a great scene. He wants so very badly to be able to carry
: on a conversation with her, but he doesn't quite know how to do
: it, so he resorts to the only method which has been successful
: in the past: he picks a fight with her.
: He knew perfectly well that she would jump all over him for
: suggesting that Mrs. Collins was near to her family.
: That wonderful smile of his when she takes the bait is priceless.
: It contains a mixture of both pleasure and regret that this is
: the only way that he can manage to carry a conversation. It is
: also obvious that he would rather fight with her than speak
: civilly with anyone else.
:
: Ann
Not to beat a subject to death, but ... I don't think Darcy
was trying to pick a fight. He was just trying to make
conversation. The scene was great because it showed how
uncomfortable they were the first time they were alone.
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Posted by Amy on September 19, 1996 at 17:00:20:
Linda said:
>> Although I of course adore the recent BBC adaptation, one thing about it has bothered me. Some of the clues we have to Lizzy's growing affection for Darcy in the period following Lydia's elopement are from statements she makes to Jane.
: For example, at one point she says something like "I could not bear to have Mr. Darcy. . . thinking ill of me." (This is quite different from the book, where Lizzy
never mentions Darcy to Jane during this time.)
I think her chats with Jane were needed in the film to show what Lizzy was thinking. In the book, she is not so close to Jane. I love the sister chats, though. And without them, we'd have to suffer through hokey voiceovers of Lizzy pondering her feelings.
>>>: Yet Jane seems to take all such hints at face value, and so later is astonished
: at Lizzy's engagement to a man she believes Lizzy to dislike.
: How can Jane be so oblivious to Lizzy's real feelings, when Lizzy was
: always able to discern Jane's feelings for Bingley, often on the basis of
: very little more evidence? Do we attribute this to Jane's trusting nature?
Maybe Lizzy is one of those people who can see through everyone except herself?
Amy
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Posted by John on September 19, 1996 at 18:35:18:
Maybe it would be interesting to think of P&P as the first of the "How to Marry a Millionaire" pictures.
In the fifties there were a string of truly distinct movies (musicals actually, mainly from Fox) about some penurious young women
who set their caps to land millionaires. "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes" is the brillian example and it was followed
by "Gentlemen Marry Brunettes" and even one straight-out called "How to Marry a Millionaire".
Does enyone else remember these movies?
The topic for discussion would be, perhaps, 150 years later (at least until the women's movement) had very much changed?
If this posting belongs on the other, newly-announced thread I apologise.
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Posted by Matthew on September 19, 1996 at 18:41:20:
: If I had the opportunity to go back to 1813, I might like it, but
: I would have to be rich. I would not want to have to depend on
: a man to support me. Marrying for love wasn't too common then,
: look at the example of poor Charlotte married to Mr. Collins -
: he could support her okay, but what a miserable way to go. She
: didn't have any other choice, though, at the age of 27 she was
: either going to have to take the first offer that came or live
: with her parents until old age.
: I don't think men today are pigs - there are lots of good ones
: around - I know 'cus I've got one. What's missing today is
: romance - but romance takes time, and we're all into "instant
: gratification" now, and we still complain that THAT takes too
: long (modification of a quote from Carrie Fisher).
: If I could go back into time, I'd sure want the opportunity to
: come back to the present. I doubt that Darcy's and Bingeley's
: were numerous in those days, either. But it's nice to dream
: about! Remember, it's fiction!
W.R.T. your comments about Charlotte's age and prospects, our own dear Jane wrote : " A woman of seven-and-twenty can never hope to feel or inspire affection again"..... Ok, that came from Marianne, but it was obviously a common sentiment of the times. And Lorraine? Even guys who DON'T see women as comfort objects or doormats find Jane's times attractive. As long as there were women like Elizabeth, Elinor, and Emma!
Posted by Matthew on September 19, 1996 at 18:49:13:
: Linda said:
: >> Although I of course adore the recent BBC adaptation, one thing about it has bothered me. Some of the clues we have to Lizzy's growing affection for Darcy in the period following Lydia's elopement are from statements she makes to Jane.
: : For example, at one point she says something like "I could not bear to have Mr. Darcy. . . thinking ill of me." (This is quite different from the book, where Lizzy
: never mentions Darcy to Jane during this time.)
:
: I think her chats with Jane were needed in the film to show what Lizzy was thinking. In the book, she is not so close to Jane. I love the sister chats, though. And without them, we'd have to suffer through hokey voiceovers of Lizzy pondering her feelings.
:
: >>>: Yet Jane seems to take all such hints at face value, and so later is astonished
: : at Lizzy's engagement to a man she believes Lizzy to dislike.
: : How can Jane be so oblivious to Lizzy's real feelings, when Lizzy was
: : always able to discern Jane's feelings for Bingley, often on the basis of
: : very little more evidence? Do we attribute this to Jane's trusting nature?
: Maybe Lizzy is one of those people who can see through everyone except herself?
: Amy
OOOH..... Well said!
Posted by Ann on September 19, 1996 at 19:16:39:
: I've only found this site recently, so please forgive me if this question has
: already been discussed. Although I of course adore the recent BBC
: adaptation, one thing about it has bothered me.
: Some of the clues we have to Lizzy's growing affection for Darcy in the period
: following Lydia's elopement are from statements she makes to Jane.
: For example, at one point she says something like "I could not bear to have
: Mr. Darcy. . . thinking ill of me." (This is quite different from the book, where Lizzy
: never mentions Darcy to Jane during this time.)
: Yet Jane seems to take all such hints at face value, and so later is astonished
: at Lizzy's engagement to a man she believes Lizzy to dislike.
: How can Jane be so oblivious to Lizzy's real feelings, when Lizzy was
: always able to discern Jane's feelings for Bingley, often on the basis of
: very little more evidence? Do we attribute this to Jane's trusting nature?
Keep in mind that Jane doesn't think that way. She takes
everything at face value without looking deeper. Lizzy on the
other hand is *very* different. She is always trying to figure
out what other people are thinking and feeling, while Jane
would think that a bit improper.
Ann
Posted by Ann on September 19, 1996 at 19:23:24:
Has anyone noticed that the story which Judi Dench's character
tells Charlotte when they are out on the picnic seems to be the
story-line from Forster's "Where Angels Fear To Tread"?
Does any one know whether that is in the text of RWAV, or did the
screen writer use Where Angels Fear To Tread to enhance the scene?
Ann
Posted by Ann on September 19, 1996 at 19:34:36:
: : I think everyone undervalues the first scene at Hunsford when
: : Darcy calls on Elizabeth alone.
: : It is a great scene. He wants so very badly to be able to carry
: : on a conversation with her, but he doesn't quite know how to do
: : it, so he resorts to the only method which has been successful
: : in the past: he picks a fight with her.
: : He knew perfectly well that she would jump all over him for
: : suggesting that Mrs. Collins was near to her family.
: : That wonderful smile of his when she takes the bait is priceless.
: : It contains a mixture of both pleasure and regret that this is
: : the only way that he can manage to carry a conversation. It is
: : also obvious that he would rather fight with her than speak
: : civilly with anyone else.
: :
: : Ann
:
: Not to beat a subject to death, but ... I don't think Darcy
: was trying to pick a fight. He was just trying to make
: conversation. The scene was great because it showed how
: uncomfortable they were the first time they were alone.
I agree that he was trying to make conversation, but he is
generally pretty inept at doing so. She discombobulates him
too much. After all, although he wants very badly to talk
with her, at the same time he wants to run away as fast as
he can. But it's too late for that, he's hooked.
If you look at their scenes together he only rarely gets
beyond asking her if her family is in good health. Before
they meet again at Pemberly the longest exchanges between them
were always arguments.
Ann
Posted by Ann on September 19, 1996 at 19:39:31:
: Just came home from Cold Comfort Farm. Worth seeing. I wouldn't say it's Jane Austen meets Monty Python, as I had read. More like Christy meets Silas Marner meets James and the Giant Peach.
: Kate Beckinsale is going to make a wonderful Emma. I can't wait.
: Amy
If you're interested in Kate Beckensale she played Hero in
Branagh's "Much Ado About Nothing"
Posted by Susan on September 19, 1996 at 19:42:21:
I am desperate to purchase the book "Making of Pride and Prejudice" but I am unable to locate it. I tried to order it at my local bookstore but was unsuccessful. I need some publication information; for example, I need the publishers name and the ISBN number. Thank you!!!
Susan
Follow Ups:
Posted by hat on September 19, 1996 at 19:54:03:
I enjoy the Netherfield dance scene very much, but I'm not sure
I quite agree with the interpretation. Lizzie comes across as being
the one in control most of the time, verbally prodding Darcy. In
the book it seems to me that she is much more at sea, emotionally, than
Darcy here. The topic he suggests is books, but she can't handle
such a discussion presumeably because her feelings are in a whirl,
because she's disappointed in Wickham not being there, and annoyed/
attracted? by Darcy. He is confused too, but not flustered to the
point of rudeness as she is. In fact I think he is quite gallant
in the circumstances!
My apologies if this has already been discussed - I only found your
page recently.
Cheers
Follow Ups:
Posted by Dolores on September 19, 1996 at 19:55:17:
: : : Do you not adore Denholm Elliot as Mr Emerson?
: : : "Women. Like. A. View.
: : : Men. Don't."
: : :
: : : Too bad he won't be making any more wonderful nut characters.
: : : See link to his filmography below. I didn't know he played George Smiley. Anybody ever see the Masterpiece Theatre version of Tinker, Tailor? I haven't and have been looking for the tapes for years.
: : : Amy
: : Don't forget the "Soldier, Spy" - I liked dem parts da best.:)
: : I saw the production with Alec Guiness as Smiley - I thought that was a British-produced version.
: : Speaking of LeCarre, I'm ready for another book and another film adaptation.
: : Steve
:
: I also liked him in James Bond movies. When I heard he had died, I was crushed. Especially when I learned how he did who woulda thought? He was a very comical actor when he needed to be. And a great dramatist.
I wonder if anyone else has seen the 1984 BBC production of Camille. Greta Scacchi played Marguerite (Camille) and Colin Firth was Armand Duval. Denholm Elliot was Camille's rich, cruel lover. It was quite a different role from the one's I've seen him in.
Follow Ups:
Posted by hat on September 19, 1996 at 20:02:27:
: I am desperate to purchase the book "Making of Pride and Prejudice" but I am unable to locate it. I tried to order it at my local bookstore but was unsuccessful. I need some publication information; for example, I need the publishers name and the ISBN number. Thank you!!!
: Susan
It is published by Penguin Group and BBC Worldwide Ltd.,
1995, ISBN 0 14 02. 5157 X.
Good luck!
Follow Ups:
Posted by Marie on September 19, 1996 at 20:54:17:
I'm not so sure that it's a matter of Lizzie being in control, but of her taking the active role. Darcy is attracted to her, but attempting to hold back--well, actually, since he asked her to dance, I think he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too--while Lizzie, still smarting from hurt pride at Darcy's comments at the assembly ball, and angry because she knows that his presence is responsible for Wickam's absence, is trying to offend him. I agree that, in the circumstances, he really is remarkable gallant.
Cheers in return.
: I enjoy the Netherfield dance scene very much, but I'm not sure
: I quite agree with the interpretation. Lizzie comes across as being
: the one in control most of the time, verbally prodding Darcy. In
: the book it seems to me that she is much more at sea, emotionally, than
: Darcy here. The topic he suggests is books, but she can't handle
: such a discussion presumeably because her feelings are in a whirl,
: because she's disappointed in Wickham not being there, and annoyed/
: attracted? by Darcy. He is confused too, but not flustered to the
: point of rudeness as she is. In fact I think he is quite gallant
: in the circumstances!
: My apologies if this has already been discussed - I only found your
: page recently.
: Cheers
Follow Ups:
Posted by Susan on September 19, 1996 at 21:11:20:
: : I am desperate to purchase the book "Making of Pride and Prejudice" but I am unable to locate it. I tried to order it at my local bookstore but was unsuccessful. I need some publication information; for example, I need the publishers name and the ISBN number. Thank you!!!
: : Susan
: It is published by Penguin Group and BBC Worldwide Ltd.,
: 1995, ISBN 0 14 02. 5157 X.
: Good luck!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!!
I am extremely grateful to you for answering my plea so quickly. Hopefully now I will be able to get the book.
Susan
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Posted by Chris on September 19, 1996 at 21:37:30:
: Thanks, page, for getting me to see ARWAV again. I liked it very much. A few comments:
: 1. I haven't read ARWAV, but I've read other Forster, and what struck me on this viewing of the film was the artificiality of some of the dialog. Like when Mr. Emerson talks to Lucy about "his boy" near the beginning. I think that the dialogue in P&P is almost two good, in that real people aren't so quick and clever, but it comes across marvelously and naturally. It's a difference between Forster and Austen, as well as the styles of the movie interpretations.
: 2. Daniel Day-Lewis is amazing. Imagine him playing such an unsensual character. He was in My Beautiful Laundrette close in time to ARWAV, and I remember not realizing I had seen the actor before---COMPLETELY unrecognizeable from the punk he played in MBL. By the way, I hope you have all seen The Age of Innocence---sure to be popular with this group.
: 3. It would be a nusiance to have to wear and take care of dresses like Lucy's and Lizzie's, but they were beautiful and flattering and could hide a multitude of figure flaws (not that Ehle or Bonham-Carter have anything to hide).
: Jane
Crispin Bonham-Carter Cust quite the dashing figure in knee
breecher and waist coat. I think Susannah Harker wore the
figure flattering dresses.
Posted by Amy on September 19, 1996 at 22:16:17:
: I always felt sorry for him, boorish snob though he is. That
: scene after Lucy sends him packing and he sits down to put
: his shoes on, is just heart breaking. He may not have really
: loved her, but it seemed quite clear to me that he was devastated
: and trying very hard to hold it all together.
That was a good scene. What a great little piece of business that was to show just at that time: something that could be done slowly and thoughtfully when it's an action normally requiring no thought. He did a nice job. And it's admirable he didn't mind playing such a geek. Kind of like Hugh Grant in Redemption, though he didn't do so good a job, I didn't think.
Amy
Posted by Amy on September 19, 1996 at 22:22:11:
>>> Denholm Elliot was Camille's rich, cruel lover. It was quite a different role from the one's I've seen him in.
I can see him playing rich and cruel, but I like him eccentric and kind better. I loved the Mr Emerson character. He and Mr Bennet would be great buds, don't you think? I wonder if he was supposed to be a Pagan. In Mr Beebe's house, he says he brought up George to believe:
Love; and do what you will.
Amy
Posted by hat on September 19, 1996 at 22:30:33:
: I'm not so sure that it's a matter of Lizzie being in control, but of her taking the active role. Darcy is attracted to her, but attempting to hold back--well, actually, since he asked her to dance, I think he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too--while Lizzie, still smarting from hurt pride at Darcy's comments at the assembly ball, and angry because she knows that his presence is responsible for Wickam's absence, is trying to offend him. I agree that, in the circumstances, he really is remarkable gallant.
: Cheers in return.
: : I enjoy the Netherfield dance scene very much, but I'm not sure
: : I quite agree with the interpretation. Lizzie comes across as being
: : the one in control most of the time, verbally prodding Darcy. In
: : the book it seems to me that she is much more at sea, emotionally, than
: : Darcy here. The topic he suggests is books, but she can't handle
: : such a discussion presumeably because her feelings are in a whirl,
: : because she's disappointed in Wickham not being there, and annoyed/
: : attracted? by Darcy. He is confused too, but not flustered to the
: : point of rudeness as she is. In fact I think he is quite gallant
: : in the circumstances!
: : My apologies if this has already been discussed - I only found your
: : page recently.
: : Cheers
You could be right about taking the active role, rather than
it being a matter of control. There may be a little bit of
having one's cake and eating it too, but I'm inclined to think
its mostly accute shyness (because he hadn't taken the trouble
to practise!). Incidently, what do you make of Lizzie saying
"But if I do not take your likeness now, I may
never have another opportunity"? I take it to mean she hopes she
won't see him again.
Follow Ups:
Posted by hat on September 19, 1996 at 22:48:35:
Have you people discussed any other CF movies?
I have seen The Advocate, A Month in the country, Another country
and Playmaker, and wouldn't mind having a chat about them. But I
don't want to mess up your site. If you know of a more appropriate
discussion site let me know.
Maybe you'd consider viewing one of these as you did ARWWV?
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