[ Index by Subject ] [ Index by Date ] [ New P&P2 BB ] [ FAQ ] [ Links ]
Posted by Amy on September 17, 1996 at 22:41:21:
: : Carolyn commented on the prettyish sort of wilderness scene:
: : I also like this scene but what I really would like to see is Lady C's visit to Darcy afterwards.
and Jontue said:
: I agree! In fact, the first time I read it, I was amazed not to find it the next chapter. Jane Austen short-sheeted us on this one!
O Henry, are you still behind that screen? I know you have analyzed or at least reported on male-only dialogs in Austen. I wonder if anyone has ever looked in to a number or share of scenes sans the heroine?
Posted by Raphael on September 18, 1996 at 00:23:14:
While I certainly honor your opinion, I must say with all
due respect that I believe you hold a prejudice against all of
our sex (not wholly without just reason, however). Some of the
blame must undoubtedly be incurred on the "other side" as well, but
only in this -- that male and female alike are responsible for
creating a society in which we now must live.
The attractions of Pride and Prejudice as a social way of life are
equally as attractive to me as a man as they must be to you, as a
woman. The deport of both sexes in public -- in particular the
startling repartee produced from a candid reserve maintained by
both sides to render suitable and comfortable distaste, disagreement,
and even open hate -- is highly attractive to me. I could even go so
far as to say that I wish very much contemporary life WAS like that
depicted in P&P2 (and, indeed, in all Austen works which I have read).
Do not despair entirely of males. They are not ALL, wholly bad. The
majority is not, I confess, worthy of any admiration, but rest assured
that there are SOME out there who aspire to the ideals represented by
whomever you admire the most in P&P2 (be it Darcy with his reserve, or
Bingley with his excessive gallantry). But also do not forget that us males
need some sorts of encouragement. For as few males as you find who like and
respect P&P2, I have found equally as FEW women on my part. Truth be told,
aside from those with whom I converse on the Internet, I know NONE.
I am in total agreement with you on this score: I wish very much indeed that
life was like that portrayed by our muse. Were that it were so. And remember,
that when you are admiring your Darcy or your Mr. Ferrars, there are legion of
men in this world who are admiring equally so the charms and personalities of our
beloved Bennetts and Dashwoods!
Posted by Cheryl on September 18, 1996 at 01:53:07:
: >>>Pray, tell me, is there an archives for
: : this BB? I do not wish bring up topics that have been thoroughly
: : hashed out before I found all you kindred spirits.
: I have some, from about message 80 on. There's no great way to distribute it, but if you are willing to futz around a little I will be happy to provide the archive in the only form I have it in. Alas, Arnessa, defining addiction post is lost. Maybe sometime when she is bored at work she could reconstruct it for us.
Amy, Amy...Any port in a storm! Tell me what I must do to
get my hands on the archives! I'm all a-flutter with
Posted by Marie on September 18, 1996 at 02:55:47:
I have to laugh to find that I am not the only one so desperate for more Jane Austen as to read the various sequels, etc. I found them all something of a disappointment, although some were at least entertaining.
Sanditon was fun, but read too much like a Georgette Heyer novel--in fact I would not be surprised to find that Heyer was the "other lady" of the pair "Jane Austen and another lady".
Of the P&P sequels, I think I enjoyed Pemberley Shades the most, though I no longer remember which it was. I skimmed the Tennant books, and found them pretty dreadful. Elizabeth and Darcy are caricatures. Leaving aside that at the end of P&P both come to recognize and repudiate their respective faults of prejudice and pride, in the Tennant books Elizabeth's prejudice is complete blindness and lack of trust in Darcy and Darcy's pride is hateful pettiness. Tennant keeps insisting that the two have a loving and passionate relationship, but it seems a case of the lady protesting too much, i.e., nothing they do supports the claim.
I just finished Jane Fairfax (the Emma story told through Jane Fairfax's eyes) by Joan Aiken. It was not bad at all, though my prejudice for Emma made it hard to admit how unlikable she might appear at times from Jane Fairfax's point of view. It's better written than all the other sequels, and Aiken keeps the right tone and sense of early 18th century decorum better than the other would-be Austens. (One of the P&P sequels has Eliza calling Darcy "Fitz"!) I notice that the list of Aiken's books includes a Mansfield Revisited. If it is at all good, I'll let you know.
Posted by Amy on September 18, 1996 at 04:42:19:
No, but it's fun to have a support group anyway; non addicts really don't understand, do they?
OTOH, there was a report here of a 150-time viewer. I had no idea it could be taken to that extreme. I wouldn't want to say whether that degree of obsession is a real problem or not.
Posted by Amy on September 18, 1996 at 07:06:54:
Sad day for Hoosier basketball. Yesterday's vote marked the end of single-class basketball in Indiana, as depicted in the movie Hoosiers, in which any size school can win it all.
I am not a native of Bloomington, but it is hard to live in the same town with Bobby Knight and not get caught up.
(John Mellencamp lives here too, but I think I would like him even if we didn't share a zip code.)
Posted by Steve on September 18, 1996 at 09:05:48:
: Do you not adore Denholm Elliot as Mr Emerson?
: "Women. Like. A. View.
: Men. Don't."
: Too bad he won't be making any more wonderful nut characters.
: See link to his filmography below. I didn't know he played George Smiley. Anybody ever see the Masterpiece Theatre version of Tinker, Tailor? I haven't and have been looking for the tapes for years.
Don't forget the "Soldier, Spy" - I liked dem parts da best.:)
I saw the production with Alec Guiness as Smiley - I thought that was a British-produced version.
Speaking of LeCarre, I'm ready for another book and another film adaptation.
Posted by Amy on September 18, 1996 at 10:47:22:
>> I think I'm intimidated by Forster.
eva, the phd candidate in psych, rushed forward to assure her:
> plus i think you will DEFINITELY be able to handle Forster. he is nowhere near as verbose as our beloved Jane or philosophical and descriptive as Dickens.
I think she is right Laura. No need for you to fear him. Now, can anyone reassure me that I am ready for Finnigan's Wake? Or is nobody ever ready?
Posted by Laura on September 18, 1996 at 12:18:29:
: : Do you not adore Denholm Elliot as Mr Emerson?
: : "Women. Like. A. View.
: : Men. Don't."
: : Too bad he won't be making any more wonderful nut characters.
: : See link to his filmography below. I didn't know he played George Smiley. Anybody ever see the Masterpiece Theatre version of Tinker, Tailor? I haven't and have been looking for the tapes for years.
: : Amy
: Don't forget the "Soldier, Spy" - I liked dem parts da best.:)
: I saw the production with Alec Guiness as Smiley - I thought that was a British-produced version.
: Speaking of LeCarre, I'm ready for another book and another film adaptation.
I also liked him in James Bond movies. When I heard he had died, I was crushed. Especially when I learned how he did who woulda thought? He was a very comical actor when he needed to be. And a great dramatist.
Posted by Laura on September 18, 1996 at 12:27:12:
: : Amy:
: : I like the way the Austen characters express their love: "the greatest admiration and regard"..."greatly esteem him"...
: "Admiraton" "regard" "esteem" - all of these are terms that imply a high respect for qualities of character other than those inspired by hormones. Being told that one is admired, regarded, esteemed creates a much more romantic atmosphere than being told that one is a "fox" or a "babe" (or hunk? Any hunks want in on this?)
: "Admiraton" "regard" and "esteem" are the qualities that are in there for the long haul - after a few years, when "fox" "babe" and "hunk" no longer apply, what is left? Nothing, if there is not also "admiraton" "regard" "esteem" - and respect.
: Joan, too
Joan, too said:
what is left? Nothing, if there is not also "admiraton" "regard" "esteem" - and respect.
: Joan, too
My sentiments exactly. I am quite ashamed to admit this, but last night after Must See TV on NBC was over I was flipping thru the channels and what was on *Showgirls*. How explicit could they go? Joe Eszterhaus is one screwed up guy!!! Now I know so men did not see this movie, but exploitation of women is one thing I despise. Women are not dolls we are not to be put on display. That movie made women into some sort of animal that is put on the spot. disgusting.
I am quite shocked by the gentlemen telling me that some of them actually applaude what I say. Raphael and Matthew where are you because I would love to just talk Austen with you. I did generalize and obviously the men on this list should not be considered. But Matt and Raphael, did you two see Showgirls?
Posted by Raphael Tehan on September 18, 1996 at 13:06:02:
: I am quite shocked by the gentlemen telling me that some of them actually applaude what I say. Raphael and Matthew where are you because I would love to just talk Austen with you. I did generalize and obviously the men on this list should not be considered. But Matt and Raphael, did you two see Showgirls?
I haven't seen it, but I am both familiar with the movie itself and
with the screenwriter, Joe Eszterhas, who also wrote Jagged Edge and
Basic Instinct (which, at the time, broke the record for highest price
ever paid for a screenplay written on spec, 3 million dollars).
I haven't had any interest in seeing it, to be honest, but before you all
accuse me of false pretensions to perfection, I will embarrass myself with
honesty -- it was not because I had no interest in seeing naked women. I had
no interest, rather, in seeing a story about Las Vegas Showgirls. Makes no sense
to me (also, I hate the woman who is the star, what's-her-name from 'Saved by the Bell'?).
However, I will say that I would take the beauty exhibited in Elizabeth Bennett or in the
Dashwoods or any of the others to the "flaunting meat" in Showgirls, because it seems that
our own imaginations produce much more vibrant attractions than our eyes. It hits closer to
home. Jennifer Ehle (for she perfectly fills the spot of Elizabeth) is attractive more than
simply physically. She's attractive as a whole being, body and soul, and for me that is what
makes the attraction so much more lasting. Her fierce wit is alone is more "sexy" than any
blatant display of flesh in something like Showgirls ever could possibly attain.
It was Sue Birtwistle, I think, who said that the sparring between Darcy and Elizabeth was terribly
erotic. I don't know if I'd go quite so far, but I do think that subtlety is a fine art exhibited
most profoundly in P&P2 which is sadly lacking in modern-based films. We don't have to be barraged by
imagery to be attracted or even aroused, and I think it's a lot more healthy when subtlety's involved.
But I think I'm getting too preachy. I shall refrain, lest I sound annoyingly similar to Mr. Collins.
But what about the women such as yourself who like P&P2 so much? Do you find yourself wishing that the
social mannerisms of the time were in use today? There were certainly aspects of that era which are distasteful.
Emma Thompson showcased that very shrewdly in her adaption of S&S. Women did not seem empowered to make their own
fortunes if no fortunes were to be had (though, in many other ways, historically the Regency period had a suprising sort
of equality compared to the later Victorian era, as fortunes and legacies could be handed through the female line as
well as the male (i.e. Miss De Bourgh). I'm very curious to know how modern women view the attitudes of the time. Which
aspects were excellent? which in want of improvement?
Posted by Laura on September 18, 1996 at 14:09:46:
How about the next movie be P&P1. And we can really compare the two versions. I really enjoyed the RWAV discussion we had. Though I did go a little ballistic yesterday and I should apologize. I live in Boston, MA and boy has the rain come down. If it had been snow we'd have 48 inches by now. Raphael I love your posts, you are right. Some men not all men are pigs!! Only kidding. Anyway, don't watch Showgirls it really was stupid and I kept flipping thru the channels anyway. Personally I think Joe Eszterhaus is a pig. I realise that women during that time like I said in my earlier post had little or no rights. And Emma Thompson did show us very beautifully how women were pretty much slaves to other sex. Please don't misquote slaves I use that for lack of a better word. But I wouldn't mind staying home and doing nothing. I probably say that because I work full-time and I'm tired all the time. And I don't get to have any fun. Which is the case. And it seems even the poorest of people had maids. I could use a maid because I'nm tired of cleaning the house, picking up after my daughter Rebecca. Getting dinner ready, the bath ready, reading her a story before bed. No no no, I like that I hate cleaning. Anyway, I'm rambling again. Thanks everyone for letting me vent. Boy group therapy and its free. You can't beat that. Laura
Posted by Johanna on September 18, 1996 at 15:15:12:
: How about the next movie be P&P1. And we can really compare the two versions. I really enjoyed the RWAV discussion we had. Though I did go a little ballistic yesterday and I should apologize. I live in Boston, MA and boy has the rain come down. If it had been snow we'd have 48 inches by now. Raphael I love your posts, you are right. Some men not all men are pigs!! Only kidding. Anyway, don't watch Showgirls it really was stupid and I kept flipping thru the channels anyway. Personally I think Joe Eszterhaus is a pig. I realise that women during that time like I said in my earlier post had little or no rights. And Emma Thompson did show us very beautifully how women were pretty much slaves to other sex. Please don't misquote slaves I use that for lack of a better word. But I wouldn't mind staying home and doing nothing. I probably say that because I work full-time and I'm tired all the time. And I don't get to have any fun. Which is the case. And it seems even the poorest of people had maids. I could use a maid because I'nm tired of cleaning the house, picking up after my daughter Rebecca. Getting dinner ready, the bath ready, reading her a story before bed. No no no, I like that I hate cleaning. Anyway, I'm rambling again. Thanks everyone for letting me vent. Boy group therapy and its free. You can't beat that. Laura
You ramble, Girl! I think this has been a funny thread. Working in Media illustrates one thing: If it sells product on TV, show it. I have to say that this BB is yet another illustration that there are people who _do_ enjoy good content content (very subjective, I know). The LCD premise in commercial television makes it tough to see much good stuff out there. I mean, use Sister Wendy for example: Could you imagine NBC "must-see-tv" showing a buck-toothed nun, albeit deeply intelligent, insightful, etc, in their line-up? I can't imagine anything remotely like that appearing anywhere here except as an import on Public Television. Showgirls inevitably would turn up on television. I didn't even watch it, I was out on a shoot, but when I got home I popped in a copy of Intermezzo that I found at the library. Ingrid Bergman before she came to the states, what a flick! Subtitles and all! BTW they must have had to edit the dickens out of that stripper flick, didn't they? Crikey. Oh, weeeeelllllll. I say vote with your pocket book. Sponsers are the only way to let US television know what you dislike. Oops, now _I'm_ rambling!
Posted by Lorraine on September 18, 1996 at 15:34:51:
If I had the opportunity to go back to 1813, I might like it, but
I would have to be rich. I would not want to have to depend on
a man to support me. Marrying for love wasn't too common then,
look at the example of poor Charlotte married to Mr. Collins -
he could support her okay, but what a miserable way to go. She
didn't have any other choice, though, at the age of 27 she was
either going to have to take the first offer that came or live
with her parents until old age.
I don't think men today are pigs - there are lots of good ones
around - I know 'cus I've got one. What's missing today is
romance - but romance takes time, and we're all into "instant
gratification" now, and we still complain that THAT takes too
long (modification of a quote from Carrie Fisher).
If I could go back into time, I'd sure want the opportunity to
come back to the present. I doubt that Darcy's and Bingeley's
were numerous in those days, either. But it's nice to dream
about! Remember, it's fiction!
Posted by Ann on September 18, 1996 at 19:06:22:
I think everyone undervalues the first scene at Hunsford when
Darcy calls on Elizabeth alone.
It is a great scene. He wants so very badly to be able to carry
on a conversation with her, but he doesn't quite know how to do
it, so he resorts to the only method which has been successful
in the past: he picks a fight with her.
He knew perfectly well that she would jump all over him for
suggesting that Mrs. Collins was near to her family.
That wonderful smile of his when she takes the bait is priceless.
It contains a mixture of both pleasure and regret that this is
the only way that he can manage to carry a conversation. It is
also obvious that he would rather fight with her than speak
civilly with anyone else.
Posted by John on September 18, 1996 at 20:22:52:
Has anyone ever written or considered writing a sequel to Pride and Prejudice?
Posted by Ramona on September 18, 1996 at 21:16:01:
: Has anyone ever written or considered writing a sequel to Pride and Prejudice?
Take a look at the Pemberly/Presumption thread starting with a post by Johanna on 9/15/96. This thread of posts covers the various sequels and for those who have read the books--their opinions of them.
[ Index by Subject ] [ Index by Date ] [ New P&P2 BB ] [ FAQ ] [ Links ]