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In Reply to: Re: Why do we think Darcy is dark? posted by Steve on September 02, 1996 at 01:46:02:
Steve wondered:
: Amy, what is this reference to "ancestor search"? Are you really related to Theodore, Tom, Scott, and Pat?
No... sir. I hope you did not think that by mentioning them I was presuming any actual ancestral connection.
I chanced to change to the post at Herkimer, NYshire, where the ancient Bellingers lay sleeping and there discovered an astonishing bit of history which interests me far more than my own forebearers.
It was, in fact, the very village in which the true story of _An American Tragedy_ was situated. From there my fancy took hold and spun a web of relationships among other writers of that era with whom I perceive an ethereal bond of kinship.
I have kept a copy of my notes on the resulting flood of sentiments and connections should you wish to learn more. But I must caution you, sir, you must be planning a very dull and indolent day indeed to find much amusement in my ill-organized chronicle.
>>(Sorry, I'm not familiar with Coyle..
T. Corraghasan Boyle (not sure how many r's and s's in Corag.). _ World's End_ was the book I made a connection to. Short stories the best. Novels include East is East, and shoot, can't remember the name of the only novel that's been a movie (disappointing adaptation): 3-4 years ago, Kellogg spa, Matthew Broderick, John Cusak, Anthony Hopkins, Bridget Fonda.
I guess you would characterize him as quirky? Like John Irving in a way?
>> One quote I'll always remember from Conroy's "The Prince of Tides", due to its particular timeliness for me: "I lived with the terrible knowledge that one day I would be an old man, still waiting for my real life to start."
I bet I can guess the occasion or moment of enlightenment.
Amy
PS Found the title I was groping for: The Road to Wellville. Link to movie below:
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Myers-Briggs posted by Amy on September 01, 1996 at 11:33:16:
... or, "What I did to waste away a Labor Day"
Okay, I did what I threatened/promised to do...I put on the Beatles to establish a properly British atmosphere, then attempted to project myself into the nervous systems of two fictional characters, about two hundred years removed. Having thus arrived in these fictional nervous systems of Lizzie and Darcy, I then took the 70-question Keirsey/Bates abbreviated version of the Myers-Briggs temperment inventory.
Caveat: this ain't rocket science. I'm no expert in either P&P or Myers-Briggs, but I'm interested enough to attempt this. I can tell you, it's quite difficult to even attempt to try to answer these kind of questions on someone else's behalf, without my own preferences and projections creeping in.
So these are just the results of *my* little excursion. Your mileage may vary. Please!
First, a bit of background on the four criteria pairs:
1) Extravert vs Intravert - E/I
2) Sensing vs iNtuitive - S/N
3) Thinking vs Feeling - T/F
4) Judging vs Perceptive - J/P
1) and 3) are fairly self-explanatory and obvious without much more description. 2) and 4) seem to me a bit more difficult to grasp with just these short word descriptions. Here's some more details off a cheat sheet I have. (Sorry, this pertains to work situations, but you can get some sense of how they would relate to social situations)
SENSING vs INTUITIVE Types (effects of each in a work situation)
SENSING: Dislike new problems unless there are standard ways to solve them; Like an established way of doing things; Enjoy using skills already learned rather than learning new ones; Usually reach a conclusion step by step; Are patient with routine details; Are impatient when details get complicated; Don't often get inspired; rarely trust the inspiration when they do; Seldom make errors of fact; Tend to be good at precise work; Work more steadily, with realistic idea of how long it will take.
INTUITIVE: Like solving new problems; Dislike doing the same thing over and over again; Enjoy learning a new skill more than using it; Put two and two together quickly; Are impatient with routine details; Are patient with complicated situations; Follow their inspirations, good or bad; Often get their facts a bit wrong; Dislike taking time for precision; Work in bursts of energy powered by enthusiasm, with slack periods in between.
JUDGING vs PERCEPTIVE Types (effects of each in a work situation)
JUDGING: Best when they can plan their work and follow the plan; Like to get things settled and wrapped up; May decide things too quickly; May dislike to interrupt the project they are on for a more urgent one; May not notice new things that need to be done; Want only the essentials needed to get on with the job; Tend to be satisfied once they reach a judgment on a thing, situation, or person.
PERCEPTIVE: Tend to be good at adapting to changing situations; Don't mind leaving things open for alterations; May have trouble making decisions; May start too many projects and have difficulty in finishing them; May postpone unpleasant jobs; Want to know all about a new job; Tend to be curious and welcome new light on a thing, situation or person.
How I "scored" Lizzie:
My first inclination regarding Lizzie, before actually answering the questions, was that she exhibited:
- E More Extravert than Introvert
- N More iNtuitive than Sensing
- F More Feeling than Thinking
- J More Judging than Perceiving
The test results supported this:
- E 8 to 2
- N 12 to 8
- F 12 to 8
- J 12 to 8
A little blurb on ENFJs says: "Responsive and responsible. Generally feel real concern for what others think or want, and try to handle things with due regard for the other person's feelings. Can present a proposal or lead a group discussion with ease and tact. Sociable, popular, sympathetic. Responsive to praise and criticism."
How I "scored" Darcy:
My first inclination regarding Darcy, before actually answering the questions, was that he exhibited:
- I More Introvert than Extravert
- S More Sensing than iNuitive
- T More Thinking than Feeling
- J More Judging than Perceiving
The test results supported this:
- I 9 to 1
- S 13 to 7
- T 19 to 1
- J 13 to 7
A little blurb on ISTJs says: "Serious, quiet, earn success by concentration and thoroughness. Practical, orderly, matter-of-fact, logical, realistic, and dependable. See to it that everything is well organized. Take responsibility. Make up their own minds as to what should be accomplished and work toward it steadily, regardless of protests or distractions."
Please note that these little blurbs are greatly condensed. The book devotes several pages to describe each of the 16 different types.
Well, back to being Steve!
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Re: Myers-Briggs...My Analysis of Darcy and Lizzie posted by Steve on September 02, 1996 at 15:21:53:
Steve said:
: Okay, I did what I threatened/promised to do...[snip] in these fictional nervous systems of Lizzie and Darcy, I then took the 70-question Keirsey/Bates abbreviated version of the Myers-Briggs temperment inventory.
: it's quite difficult to even attempt to try to answer these kind of questions on someone else's behalf, without my own preferences and projections creeping in.
I found it difficult in a different way - a number of the questions were phrased in a way that was not applicable to the lifestyle of L & D - such as the telephone items - for example:
36.When the phone rings do you
hasten to get to it first
hope someone else will answer
(Actually, even if they had had phones, neither L or D would have answered it themselves - their servants would have done it, so it doesn't apply.)
The Hypercard version of the survey is written by a Michael Sanders, MD, and his method of constructing the questions was much more culturally "clean" - his last 24 questions were stated like this:
> Which word in the pair below appeals to you more ?
> Scheduled
> Unplanned
>
> Which word in the pair below appeals to you more
> Facts
> ideas
>
> Which word in the pair below appeals to you more ?
> Feeling
> Thinking
He took the vocabulary used to define the different types and put them out there in a format in which anyone could apply it to whatever their life circumstances happen to be. (However, it's interesting to note that L & D did come out the same types using both sets of questions based on specific examples of their behavior as described by Austen.)
How I "scored" Lizzie:
Steve's first inclination regarding Lizzie, before actually answering the questions, was that she exhibited:
: - E More Extravert than Introvert
: - N More iNtuitive than Sensing
: - F More Feeling than Thinking
: - J More Judging than Perceiving
:
: The test results supported this:
: - E 8 to 2
: - N 12 to 8
: - F 12 to 8
: - J 12 to 8
So did mine:
- E 9 to 1
- N 12 to 8
- F 18 to 2
- J 13 to 7
Steve's first inclination regarding Darcy:
: - I More Introvert than Extravert
: - S More Sensing than iNuitive
: - T More Thinking than Feeling
: - J More Judging than Perceiving
:
: The test results supported this:
: - I 9 to 1
: - S 13 to 7
: - T 19 to 1
: - J 13 to 7
So did mine:
- I 9 to 1
- S 20 to 0
- T 18 to 2
- J 20 to 0
Although I was not feeling obsessive enough to do it all again using their attitudes at the end of P&P, I do suspect that Lizzie's F would have drifted somewhat in the direction of T, and Darcy's T somewhat in the direction of F, while both of their J's would have moved somewhat in the direction of P.
It's probably appropriate to theorize that perhaps one of the elements that was so successful in creating such a strong dramatic tension between their characters was that the author set them up as basically opposite types in the first 3 areas with *both* being quite judgemental in the 4th. Set them up for conflict until something happened to get them past appearances and their own prejudices.
Joan
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Re: Myers-Briggs Analysis of Darcy and Lizzie posted by Joan on September 02, 1996 at 21:59:20:
Wow, Joan & Steve. I am impressed.
Joan, re your feeling that both shift at the end, I think so too. And maybe not just in the J-P and T-F departments. What about S-N? You rated him utterly and completely an S and I'd like to think that Lizzie could show him how to be a bit more of a dreamer. Course then maybe we wouldn't like him. We're all high N's yet we adore Darcy who seems to have none of it at all.
Hmm.
Amy
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Re: Myers-Briggs Analysis of Darcy and Lizzie posted by Amy on September 02, 1996 at 22:16:19:
Amy commented;
: re your feeling that both shift at the end, I think so too. And maybe not just in the J-P and T-F departments. What about S-N? You rated him utterly and completely an S and I'd like to think that Lizzie could show him how to be a bit more of a dreamer.
So would I, but I think that comes in the sequel (and not any of those pseudo-sequals written by other than JA herself.). Though I realize that it didn't make it into P&P2, at the end of Chapter 58 Jane Austen said, "Elizbeth longed to observe how Mr. Bingley had been a most delightful friend; so easily guided that his worth was invaluable; but she checked herself. She remembered that he had yet to learn to be laught at, and it was rather too early to begin."
: Course then maybe we wouldn't like him. We're all high N's yet we adore Darcy who seems to have none of it at all. Hmm.
I like him very well indeed in fantasy, but I'm not sure that I could stand to live with him in reality. ;-)
Actually, I came back because I just remembered that I found some of the examples given of famous people of Lizzie's and Darcy's types very interesting:
Famous ENFJs include:
Abraham Lincoln
William Cullen Bryant, poet
Ross Perot
Elizabeth Dole
... and...ta da...
Abraham Maslow, psychologist and proponent of 'self-actualization'
Famous ISTJs include:
U.S. Presidents: (most frequent type)
...George Washington
...Andrew Johnson
...Benjamin Harrison
...Calvin Coolidge
...Herbert Hoover
...George H. W. Bush
Eeyore (_Winnie the Pooh_)
...and saving the best for the last:
Puddleglum, the marshwiggle (_Chronicles of Narnia_)
Don't you love it? Darcy and Puddleglum? ;-)
At first I felt a bit guilty filling in the survey as ficticious people when I saw that they are collecting (anonymous) data on what categories online visitors fall into, thinking that we are messing up their stats by responding as fictional people, but if someone did it as Eeyore and Puddleglum, all guilt is gone!
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Connections to 20th century writers posted by Amy on September 02, 1996 at 10:26:22:
Miss ... Bluemarble,
I shan't tarry longer than necessry. However, your eloquence bespeaks well of your education, and ancestry, and therefore is indeed deserving of proper reply. Drat these circumstances in which I can only now proclaim to promise such a reply in the coming days, as my relocation allows.
Your pontificating wager, Miss Bluemarble, shall certainly bring amusement to us each and every one. Responding to my trifling exposition that:
>> One quote I'll always remember from Conroy's "The Prince of Tides", due to its particular
timeliness for me: "I lived with the terrible knowledge that one day I would be an old man, still
waiting for my real life to start."
Miss Bluemarble then:
: I bet I can guess the occasion or moment of enlightenment.
Pray tell, Miss Bluemarble, then .... three cyber-shillings for your thought!
Anxiously and respectfully yours in reply,
Steve
In Reply to: Re: What we are posted by Joan on September 01, 1996 at 23:04:34:
: : : Amy INFP
: : : ------------------------------
: : : add yours
: : Ramona -- I am an INFJ!!
: Joan - also INFJ
Sharon- also INFJ!! (Though the second time I was INTJ).
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Re: What we are posted by sharon on September 03, 1996 at 04:13:38:
: : : : Amy INFP
: : : : ------------------------------
: : : : add yours
: : : Ramona -- I am an INFJ!!
: : Joan - also INFJ
: Sharon- also INFJ!! (Though the second time I was INTJ).
So, like, how did all you Introverts get up the courage to venture out into cyberspace?
[rhetorical kidding]
Steve
(borderline E/I...but tending to E)
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Re: What we are posted by Ramona on September 01, 1996 at 22:44:20:
: : Amy INFP
:
: :
: : ------------------------------
: : add yours
: Ramona -- I am an INFJ!!
Laura -- I am a INTP!!! very rare!!
In Reply to: Censure of Mr Bennet posted by Amy on August 31, 1996 at 13:12:10:
: John said:
: >he seems undeserving of Mr. Darcy's censure, his lumping him in with the other more extravagant members of her family.
: Amy said:
: > I remember thinking...that Darcy was unduly harsh on Mr Bennet.
If we judge Mr. Bennet's conduct by current standards, there does not seem to be much wrong with it. His candor seems refreshing, and when he mocks his wife and silly daughters, we laugh with him.
But in those times and those social circles, behavior was guided by a much more rigid social code, in which tact and decorum were tremendously important. In that context, Mr. Bennet is a bit more vulnerable to criticism.
His public expressions of contempt for his wife and younger daughters is totally inappropriate; he exposes the family to further ridicule by practicing it himself. His way of telling Mary to stop playing was actually rather indiscreet, particularly the part about allowing other young ladies to **exhibit**.
Mr. Bennet seems to have given up on Mary, Kitty, and Lydia ever becoming sensible; with them, he has become more of a mocker than a father. This is his other great failing. Had he been willing to take a more active role in their upbringing, he could have required/influenced them to keep their less respectable behavior in check. This is painfully evident after Lydia's elopement, as Mr. B. himself admits. He could have prevented it by not allowing her to go to Brighton, and in the end he resolves to mend his ways with Kitty and Mary.
He's still a much more sensible, sympathetic character than some of the other Bennets -- this is why we like him so much.
In Reply to: Myers-Briggs posted by Amy on September 01, 1996 at 11:33:16:
> Get Henry to help us find the relevant posts in
> Austen-L. show us, step by step, how to search
> those confounding archives using this quest
> as an example.
Searching the archives is explained at the end
of the AUSTEN-L Web page; it's not that difficult,
but you have to slavishly obey the EXACT
form of the query, typing in the mystic search
incantations whether or not you understand what
they mean (and unless you know about older IBM
mainframes, you won't know what the search commands
really mean, but don't let that inhibit you, like
I say).
Has anyone seen the two videos "Perspectives on P&P" by
the BBC Educational Development Unit or "P&P from Page to
Screen", a BBC Documentary video?
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: p&p videos posted by ph on September 03, 1996 at 20:06:56:
: Has anyone seen the two videos "Perspectives on P&P" by
: the BBC Educational Development Unit or "P&P from Page to
: Screen", a BBC Documentary video?
I'd also be very interested in hearing about these videos if anyone has seen them! I bombarded A&E with requests to show it, especially when they were showing little fragments of the "making of" video in their promotional spots in advance of the August re-broadcast.
Joan
In Reply to: Re: What we are posted by Steve on September 03, 1996 at 08:33:38:
Steve asked:
: So, like, how did all you Introverts get up the courage to venture out into cyberspace?
Actually, I'm a borderline E/I, as well. Professionally I tend toward E, socially I'm more of an I. Online I tend toward E partly because I started online on a special network just for teachers so I was in "E" mode for that, and also, online one can choose one's audience. In newsgroups or maillists where flaming is going on, you will not see me say a thing! But in a gathering such as this, one expects to be among like-minded folks, so speaking up does not seem to be taking much of a risk.
Joan
In Reply to: Keirsey sorter URL posted by Amy on September 01, 1996 at 20:01:25:
: I said:
: >I don't even remember my type, but wouldn't mind finding out if Steve or Joan or somebody else will coordinate it.
: Now you got me curious. I got myself curious. URL below for the Keirsey Temperament Sorter, an instrument for determining Myers Briggs type.
: I will tell when I am finished
I took the test, found that I am ENFP. I must be a little crazy because I am teaching myself how to use this computer.
That is why I don't know how to post a message. I thinks kind of funny. I guess I would.
Donna
In Reply to: Favorite supporting character posted by Ramona on August 21, 1996 at 21:28:22:
: Whose your favorite supporting characters in P&P2. I would have to say mine is Mr. and Mrs. Gardiner because they are the only seemingly normal people in the whole place. I do however greatly like the performance of Mr. Bennet.
Deftinatly Mr. Bennet. I love his humor....Mrs. Bennet isn't that bad either; she's such a pain that it makes her hilarious!
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: i watched it so many times i found an error!!! posted by Sarah on August 28, 1996 at 20:40:54:
: Hey, kids,
: Has anyone noticed --- in part 3 when Lizzie and Jane are talking in the bedroom about Lydia - the scene starts in the bedroom (Jane's?), Lizzie reads the letter Lydia left for Mrs. Forrester and the scene turns into Lydia talking and explaining her elopement with Wickam. When it resumes in the Bennett house, Lizzie and Jane are in the sitting room downstairs. I noticed it last night when watching it on t.v., but have not gone back and checked it on my old worn out copy.
I never noticed that! Uhhhh....maybe they just walked downstairs? <G>
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Re: i watched it so many times i found an error!!! posted by Liz on September 03, 1996 at 23:56:29:
: : Hey, kids,
: : Has anyone noticed --- in part 3 when Lizzie and Jane are talking in the bedroom about Lydia - the scene starts in the bedroom (Jane's?), Lizzie reads the letter Lydia left for Mrs. Forrester and the scene turns into Lydia talking and explaining her elopement with Wickam. When it resumes in the Bennett house, Lizzie and Jane are in the sitting room downstairs. I noticed it last night when watching it on t.v., but have not gone back and checked it on my old worn out copy.
: I never noticed that! Uhhhh....maybe they just walked downstairs? <G>
Hey, where do the little <grin> things go? There *was* one on there....Please don't take it seriously!
In Reply to: Casting of Mr.Bingley posted by Jonathan on August 30, 1996 at 08:30:03:
: I agree that he is dorky. Actually, he is the weakest cast member by far. And would anyone believe that he is related to his sisters?
He's not *that* bad....my prob with him is that he smiles too much. He and Jane are just too nice of people, while Darcy and Lizzie have a little more depth to them. And no, it's unbelieveable that he and his sisters are related! They're not at *all* alike. It's weird!
Follow Ups:
In Reply to: Re: Casting of Mr.Bingley posted by Liz on September 03, 1996 at 23:59:45:
Liz observed:
: And no, it's unbelieveable that he and his sisters are related! They're not at *all* alike. It's weird!
Well, not much wierder than believing that Charlotte and Maria Lucas are related. Actually, it's hard to believe that Caroline Bingley and Mrs. Hurst are sisters, too, and there's not much family resemblance between Darcy and Georgiana either. Maybe they were all adopted? ;-)
Joan
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