You are very, very harsh on these people, then

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You are very, very harsh on these people, then Written by kathleen (elder) (10/25/2009 6:36 a.m.) in consequence of the missive, pregnancy, penned by Bridget D

and I would not judge them as harshly. Nobody is arguing that Eliza has been totally moral & intelligent in her conduct with Willoughby. What Eliza did was wrong, but Willoughby's actions were more so IF this was a pattern with him.

I readily concede that sex outside of marriage would have been consider immoral in JA's time & region, as it would have been considered in many eras/places. But one act of immorality does not make the person immoral, nor does it make that person generally stupid.

When it comes to living a sin-free life, there are no perfect people, only people who try (with varying degrees of success) to live up to their moral principles. Committing a sin is not the same thing as being an immoral person, just as an act of stupidity does not equate to being a person "with apparnetly not much brain." [as you called Eliza in a previous post]

Eliza was young, probably inexperienced, and she was, perhaps, weak. But we don't know enough about her, imo, to label her as immoral and/or stupid. Unless you find more in the novel to support those descriptors, we shall still disagree.

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I think in Ch.44 Willoughby is 'genuine' ... Rachel G (10/12/2009 8:50 p.m.)

Most of the posters in this and related threads Anselm (10/14/2009 4:40 a.m.)
- too negative Bridget D (10/15/2009 4:14 a.m.)
  - Negative view of Willoughby Robbin (10/15/2009 8:04 p.m.)
    - Willoughby again Bridget D (10/16/2009 4:44 a.m.)
      - Willougby and Edward   Bridget D (10/16/2009 5:30 a.m.)
        
        Molest Them?   Robbin (10/18/2009 1:30 a.m.)
        
        Sorry I made a mistake   Bridget D (10/18/2009 7:34 a.m.)
        
        You know   Karen G (10/19/2009 5:33 p.m.)
        
        Thank you   Robbin (10/19/2009 2:04 a.m.)
        
        That's Also What I Thought   maud l (10/18/2009 3:55 a.m.)
    - I'm not sure where the onus of proof is, but... Tom P2 (10/15/2009 11:38 p.m.)
      - *The* proof...   Reeba (10/21/2009 1:38 p.m.)
        
        Is your 'proof of pudding' the same as my term 'conduct'? nfm   Tom P2 (10/21/2009 6:06 p.m.)
        
        I'm not really sure...   Reeba (10/22/2009 3:49 p.m.)
      - Well put! Outi (10/16/2009 1:19 p.m.)
      - Proof Ivonne (10/16/2009 10:25 a.m.)
      - Great points, Tom P2 Ramya (10/16/2009 9:29 a.m.)
      - Willoughby as Villain   Bridget D (10/16/2009 4:33 a.m.)
        
        Drawing the calculating line in the sand   Robbin (10/21/2009 12:05 p.m.)
        
        willougby   Bridget D (10/21/2009 3:16 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby’s Intent   Robbin (10/22/2009 11:04 a.m.)
        
        Respectable rakes and illicit careers   Barb JA (10/22/2009 11:58 a.m.)
        
        Flirtation   Barb JA (10/16/2009 12:42 p.m.)
        
        flirting   Bridget D (10/16/2009 1:56 p.m.)
        
        Flirts and selfish men   Elizabeth K (10/16/2009 8:49 a.m.)
        
        Flirting and selfish men   Bridget D (10/17/2009 6:13 a.m.)
        
        Flirtation versus Courtship   Robbin (10/21/2009 12:24 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby and marrianne   Bridget D (10/22/2009 7:20 a.m.)
        
        Adult guidance.. and further rambling   Barb JA (10/22/2009 11:01 a.m.)
        
        Age of Consent   Bridget D (10/23/2009 7:10 a.m.)
        
        Age disparity   Barb JA (10/23/2009 12:39 p.m.)
        
        Adult guidance   Bridget D (10/24/2009 2:52 a.m.)
        
        You seem to think that only foolish and/or immoral   kathleen (elder) (10/24/2009 7:22 a.m.)
        
        Agree with Kathleen (elder)   maud l (10/24/2009 11:09 p.m.)
        
        pregnancy   Bridget D (10/25/2009 3:58 a.m.)
        
        You are very, very harsh on these people, then   kathleen (elder) (10/25/2009 6:36 a.m.)
        
        I agree, Kathleen   Elizabeth K (10/25/2009 6:39 a.m.)
        
        Actually, Bridget D, it did happen in Jane Austen's world   Elizabeth K (10/25/2009 6:35 a.m.)
        
        carryings on   Bridget D (10/25/2009 6:55 a.m.)
        
        As this discussion is still going on, I feel   Reeba (10/25/2009 6:30 a.m.)
        
        One minor point -- do we know the gender of Eliza's   kathleen (elder) (10/25/2009 6:50 a.m.)
        
        oooops!! :-/ nfm   Reeba (10/25/2009 10:55 a.m.)
        
        Indiscretion   Bridget D (10/25/2009 6:44 a.m.)
        
        When you say..   Reeba (10/25/2009 10:57 a.m.)
        
        Oh dear, getting drawn in again....;-)   Elizabeth K (10/25/2009 6:53 a.m.)
        
        well to return to the basic S&S situation   Bridget D (10/25/2009 7:11 a.m.)
        
        And we are getting further off topic :-)   kathleen (elder) (10/25/2009 6:55 a.m.)
        
        Sorry, Kathleen. :-) Such an absorbing topic! ;-) (nfm)   Elizabeth K (10/25/2009 7:25 a.m.)
        
        Re ; 'her friend's father'.   Rachel G (10/24/2009 3:52 a.m.)
        
        Friend's father   Bridget D (10/24/2009 8:42 a.m.)
        
        Parental Authority & Income   Robbin (10/24/2009 12:50 p.m.)
        
        Eliza and her friend's foolishness   Bridget D (10/25/2009 3:53 a.m.)
        
        Friend's of Eliza   Robbin (10/25/2009 11:47 p.m.)
        
        Slight mistake   Bridget D (10/25/2009 5:54 a.m.)
        
        Different opinions...   Rachel G (10/22/2009 9:31 a.m.)
        
        Willoughy in book   Bridget D (10/22/2009 2:50 p.m.)
        
        Bridget D....   Elizabeth K (10/22/2009 3:19 p.m.)
        
        Well reasoned & well put. nfm   nan duval (10/21/2009 4:10 p.m.)
      - Interpreting Willoughby Rachel G (10/16/2009 1:39 a.m.)
  - I think the reason many of us hate Willoughby... Elizabeth K (10/15/2009 4:30 a.m.)
    - honourable gentleman Bridget D (10/15/2009 4:45 a.m.)
      - I suppose it depends on the way one looks at it (long) Elizabeth K (10/15/2009 8:52 a.m.)
      - Good analogy- foolish victim & opportunist Criminal : -) nfm Barb JA (10/15/2009 8:35 a.m.)
- Actually it isn´t fair... MarianneR (10/14/2009 3:42 p.m.)
- Elinors opinion of the confession Barb JA (10/14/2009 10:04 a.m.)
  - Once Elinor gains some perspective... Barbara (10/14/2009 12:58 p.m.)
    - Willoughby's Guilt - What was JA's intention? Rachel G (10/16/2009 1:14 a.m.)
    - Do you think it odd though... Barb JA (10/14/2009 6:13 p.m.)
    - Willoughby only regrets what has made him unhappy... Cathy Allen (10/14/2009 3:02 p.m.)
Nobody denies the painful, genuine.... Reeba (10/13/2009 5:06 a.m.)
- Just so! Rachel G (10/13/2009 6:39 a.m.)
don't necessarily disagree Karen G. (10/12/2009 11:57 p.m.)
- A "geniune" performer - sounds a little like Marianne? Anselm (10/13/2009 9:43 a.m.)
  - a difference Karen G (10/13/2009 10:01 a.m.)
    - Humbled....humbled....humility. Aha!!!! Anselm (10/13/2009 11:59 a.m.)
      - drama queen   Karen G. (10/13/2009 11:58 p.m.)
        
        OK, fair cop!   Anselm (10/14/2009 5:09 a.m.)
        
        I must have too much share of the conversation ;)   Karen G (10/14/2009 1:29 p.m.)
        
        Marianne’s Mindset   Robbin (10/14/2009 8:26 p.m.)
        
        I definitely agree.   Anselm (10/15/2009 6:27 a.m.)
- Mrs. Smith as part of his drama LouAnn (10/13/2009 7:30 a.m.)
- Willoughby the Performer. Rachel G (10/13/2009 3:56 a.m.)
  - I very much agree with you, Rachel G Outi (10/13/2009 12:25 p.m.)
    - Many Bad Sides Robbin (10/14/2009 2:11 a.m.)
    - And Willoughby agrees with you. ;-) Reeba (10/13/2009 3:18 p.m.)

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