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Good Point Written by maud l (10/16/2009 6:06 p.m.) in consequence of the missive, Even good girls can be weak on occasion :-), penned by kathleen (elder)

Thank you for bringing up this point; something was in my mind as I read the statement that Marianne would never do this. Of course, all sorts of women had children out of wedlock through the ages including the Regency. That's why this argument that Eliza owned blame in the first place is specious. Jane Austen never blames anyone other than Willoughby for the seduction. She makes Eliza weak in understanding but in the same manner in which she makes Marianne overdone in sensibility. Both are very young women who have to grow through their difficulties.

And I agree that the "Emma is at fault" discussion can't be resolved.

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She shall forgive me again, and on more reasonable grounds Robbin (10/10/2009 3:05 a.m.)

Comparing confessions. (longish) nan duval (10/16/2009 11:18 p.m.)
- Great summary - MarianneR (10/21/2009 4:21 a.m.)
- Lovely summary of Marianne's repentance, nfm Barb JA (10/17/2009 8:35 a.m.)
  - I agree. Nan you are so clever! nfm (:D) Robbin (10/18/2009 12:17 a.m.)
How can one even think of it... Reeba (10/11/2009 5:14 p.m.)
- PS: There's a time to play, and a time to work.... Reeba (10/13/2009 10:05 a.m.)
  - Monster behind the Mask Robbin (10/13/2009 5:35 p.m.)
- A comfort to W to know how M would look dead? Cathy Allen (10/12/2009 11:13 a.m.)
So how could Elinor and Marianne forgive him? MarianneR (10/11/2009 2:04 p.m.)
- Why wouldn't Elinor forgive? Outi (10/12/2009 2:32 p.m.)
  - Unmerited Forgiveness Robbin (10/14/2009 12:38 a.m.)
  - Elinor's attitude towards Willoughby LouAnn (10/12/2009 3:03 p.m.)
- Elinor is in a vulnerable state of mind. Reeba (10/11/2009 4:08 p.m.)
  - Marrying Eliza Bridget D (10/12/2009 1:53 a.m.)
    - He Had Finished With Her maud l (10/12/2009 1:58 a.m.)
      - intent to marry   Bridget D (10/12/2009 2:11 a.m.)
        
        In defence of Eliza   Elizabeth K (10/12/2009 6:29 a.m.)
        
        Eliza's fault?   Bridget D (10/15/2009 4:23 a.m.)
        
        If we knew when Eliza's birthday was...   Cathy Allen (10/15/2009 11:11 a.m.)
        
        Statutory   Bridget D (10/15/2009 1:18 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby and Eliza (again!)   Elizabeth K (10/16/2009 8:42 a.m.)
        
        Marianne seduced   CarolTS (10/16/2009 5:37 p.m.)
        
        Even good girls can be weak on occasion :-)   kathleen (elder) (10/16/2009 5:52 p.m.)
        
        Marianne   BarbaraB (10/17/2009 11:27 a.m.)
        
        Rationalizing her behaviour   Barbara (10/16/2009 9:23 p.m.)
        
        Marianne seduced?   Bridget D (10/17/2009 5:22 a.m.)
        
        So, no good, moral young woman every gave in   kathleen (elder) (10/17/2009 5:43 a.m.)
        
        I agree   Robbin (10/18/2009 12:15 a.m.)
        
        Of course they did!   Outi (10/17/2009 10:30 a.m.)
        
        I agree   Ramya (10/17/2009 12:26 p.m.)
        
        Jane Austen's Marianne   Bridget D (10/17/2009 6:06 a.m.)
        
        Any Marianne   BarbaraB (10/17/2009 1:54 p.m.)
        
        Marianne as seducible   Bridget D (10/18/2009 7:31 a.m.)
        
        Austen's heroines   Elizabeth K (10/18/2009 11:38 a.m.)
        
        principles versus convention   Bridget D (10/19/2009 7:09 a.m.)
        
        Time to stop this discussion   kathleen (elder) (10/19/2009 7:36 a.m.)
        
        I think many young women, including fictional   kathleen (elder) (10/17/2009 7:08 a.m.)
        
        If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right   TimLee (10/16/2009 10:46 p.m.)
        
        Good Point   maud l (10/16/2009 6:06 p.m.)
        
        well I'll agree to disagree   Bridget D (10/16/2009 2:08 p.m.)
        
        Which is exactly what you've been saying   CarolTS (10/15/2009 5:11 p.m.)
        
        Exactly, Cathy Allen.   Elizabeth K (10/15/2009 1:14 p.m.)
        
        She had no money   kathleen (elder) (10/12/2009 6:26 a.m.)
        
        I wonder...   Barbara (10/12/2009 12:18 p.m.)
        
        Exactly.   nan duval (10/12/2009 10:09 a.m.)
  - She's also had next to no sleep Barbara (10/11/2009 5:56 p.m.)
- Elinor's forgiveness. Rachel G (10/11/2009 3:37 p.m.)
  - Distraction; Elinor's wedge (part 2); cooler reflection in ch45 Tom P2 (10/11/2009 6:44 p.m.)
Forgiving Willoughby Rachel G (10/10/2009 8:46 p.m.)
- I think he's actrually... Reeba (10/11/2009 4:13 p.m.)
Does ANYONE agree that W explained himself? Let's vote! Cathy Allen (10/10/2009 4:15 p.m.)
- No, I don't, because... Reeba (10/11/2009 3:08 p.m.)
- Taking your question literally... Rachel G (10/10/2009 8:49 p.m.)
  - Excuse me, does ANYONE feel that W vindicated himself? Cathy Allen (10/11/2009 12:55 p.m.)
    - My apologies, Cathy Allen. Rachel G (10/11/2009 1:21 p.m.)
  - I like your summary very much, Rachel G Outi (10/11/2009 5:08 a.m.)
  - WIllougby's repentance Bridget D (10/11/2009 5:05 a.m.)
    - Unrepentant Wrongdoer Robbin (10/13/2009 9:40 a.m.)
    - Like a child Barbara (10/11/2009 6:08 p.m.)
      - More like a spoilt brat. One of Lady M's own :-D nfm Reeba (10/12/2009 6:48 a.m.)
      - Yeah, he lost the package deal   Karen G. (10/11/2009 10:35 p.m.)
        
        And of course, the spoiled brat   nan duval (10/12/2009 10:12 a.m.)
        
        Ooooo -- VERY well said, nan! (nfm)   Cathy Allen (10/12/2009 10:44 a.m.)
- No maud l (10/10/2009 5:46 p.m.)
What this says about Willoughby---and Brandon Mary Anne (10/10/2009 10:15 a.m.)
- The horsewhip? I believe that TimLee has it. Graciela (10/11/2009 11:22 p.m.)
- Comparing the confessions Barbara (10/11/2009 6:21 p.m.)
  - Dread of One Event Robbin (10/14/2009 12:31 a.m.)
    - Omission of the duel. Rachel G (10/14/2009 1:34 p.m.)
      - But weren't duels illegal? Outi (10/16/2009 1:33 p.m.)
        
        Very true. Rachel G (10/16/2009 1:55 p.m.)
      - Willoughby's dread of Marianne's marriage   Barbara (10/14/2009 2:40 p.m.)
        
        Col Brandon�s Advantage   Robbin (10/14/2009 8:47 p.m.)
        
        Money again...   MarianneR (10/15/2009 4:47 a.m.)
  - further comparison Karen G. (10/11/2009 10:24 p.m.)
    - I like the word *performer* for Willoughby. nfm Reeba (10/12/2009 12:53 p.m.)
  - No embellishments Mary Anne (10/11/2009 8:15 p.m.)
- Excellent analysis Reeba (10/11/2009 4:19 p.m.)
- Wonderful insight, nfm Barb JA (10/11/2009 8:56 a.m.)

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