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too negative Written by Bridget D (10/15/2009 4:14 a.m.) in consequence of the missive, Most of the posters in this and related threads, penned by Anselm

I find the assessment of Willoghby on this read rather too negative... IMHO. I think that JA intended us to see him as bad but not TOTALLY irreclaimably so. His faults are many, nad his good points few... but while he has faults so do the other characters. So do we all... While I feel that Austen meant us to see W as the villain she did not intend to exclude hsi victims such as Marianne and Eliza II from blame iether. yes Marianne was decieved and jilted by Willouhby, but after all a love affair that goes wrong is not an uncommon thing.. and most people do not have the time or possibly the inclination to indulge themsleves in fretting nad making themselves miserable the way that M did, to the point where she left herself vulnerable to illness nad made her family wretched. I've siad a good deal already as to my belief that Eliza was at least partly to blame ofr her misfortunes at Willoughby's hands which I wont repeat but I think that Elinor's measured appraisal of W which does not mean that she approves of him indicates that this is Austen's more balanced nuanced view of his character

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I think in Ch.44 Willoughby is 'genuine' ... Rachel G (10/12/2009 8:50 p.m.)

Most of the posters in this and related threads Anselm (10/14/2009 4:40 a.m.)
- too negative Bridget D (10/15/2009 4:14 a.m.)
  - Negative view of Willoughby Robbin (10/15/2009 8:04 p.m.)
    - Willoughby again Bridget D (10/16/2009 4:44 a.m.)
      - Willougby and Edward   Bridget D (10/16/2009 5:30 a.m.)
        
        Molest Them?   Robbin (10/18/2009 1:30 a.m.)
        
        Sorry I made a mistake   Bridget D (10/18/2009 7:34 a.m.)
        
        You know   Karen G (10/19/2009 5:33 p.m.)
        
        Thank you   Robbin (10/19/2009 2:04 a.m.)
        
        That's Also What I Thought   maud l (10/18/2009 3:55 a.m.)
    - I'm not sure where the onus of proof is, but... Tom P2 (10/15/2009 11:38 p.m.)
      - *The* proof...   Reeba (10/21/2009 1:38 p.m.)
        
        Is your 'proof of pudding' the same as my term 'conduct'? nfm   Tom P2 (10/21/2009 6:06 p.m.)
        
        I'm not really sure...   Reeba (10/22/2009 3:49 p.m.)
      - Well put! Outi (10/16/2009 1:19 p.m.)
      - Proof Ivonne (10/16/2009 10:25 a.m.)
      - Great points, Tom P2 Ramya (10/16/2009 9:29 a.m.)
      - Willoughby as Villain   Bridget D (10/16/2009 4:33 a.m.)
        
        Drawing the calculating line in the sand   Robbin (10/21/2009 12:05 p.m.)
        
        willougby   Bridget D (10/21/2009 3:16 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby’s Intent   Robbin (10/22/2009 11:04 a.m.)
        
        Respectable rakes and illicit careers   Barb JA (10/22/2009 11:58 a.m.)
        
        Flirtation   Barb JA (10/16/2009 12:42 p.m.)
        
        flirting   Bridget D (10/16/2009 1:56 p.m.)
        
        Flirts and selfish men   Elizabeth K (10/16/2009 8:49 a.m.)
        
        Flirting and selfish men   Bridget D (10/17/2009 6:13 a.m.)
        
        Flirtation versus Courtship   Robbin (10/21/2009 12:24 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby and marrianne   Bridget D (10/22/2009 7:20 a.m.)
        
        Adult guidance.. and further rambling   Barb JA (10/22/2009 11:01 a.m.)
        
        Age of Consent   Bridget D (10/23/2009 7:10 a.m.)
        
        Age disparity   Barb JA (10/23/2009 12:39 p.m.)
        
        Adult guidance   Bridget D (10/24/2009 2:52 a.m.)
        
        You seem to think that only foolish and/or immoral   kathleen (elder) (10/24/2009 7:22 a.m.)
        
        Agree with Kathleen (elder)   maud l (10/24/2009 11:09 p.m.)
        
        pregnancy   Bridget D (10/25/2009 3:58 a.m.)
        
        You are very, very harsh on these people, then   kathleen (elder) (10/25/2009 6:36 a.m.)
        
        I agree, Kathleen   Elizabeth K (10/25/2009 6:39 a.m.)
        
        Actually, Bridget D, it did happen in Jane Austen's world   Elizabeth K (10/25/2009 6:35 a.m.)
        
        carryings on   Bridget D (10/25/2009 6:55 a.m.)
        
        As this discussion is still going on, I feel   Reeba (10/25/2009 6:30 a.m.)
        
        One minor point -- do we know the gender of Eliza's   kathleen (elder) (10/25/2009 6:50 a.m.)
        
        oooops!! :-/ nfm   Reeba (10/25/2009 10:55 a.m.)
        
        Indiscretion   Bridget D (10/25/2009 6:44 a.m.)
        
        When you say..   Reeba (10/25/2009 10:57 a.m.)
        
        Oh dear, getting drawn in again....;-)   Elizabeth K (10/25/2009 6:53 a.m.)
        
        well to return to the basic S&S situation   Bridget D (10/25/2009 7:11 a.m.)
        
        And we are getting further off topic :-)   kathleen (elder) (10/25/2009 6:55 a.m.)
        
        Sorry, Kathleen. :-) Such an absorbing topic! ;-) (nfm)   Elizabeth K (10/25/2009 7:25 a.m.)
        
        Re ; 'her friend's father'.   Rachel G (10/24/2009 3:52 a.m.)
        
        Friend's father   Bridget D (10/24/2009 8:42 a.m.)
        
        Parental Authority & Income   Robbin (10/24/2009 12:50 p.m.)
        
        Eliza and her friend's foolishness   Bridget D (10/25/2009 3:53 a.m.)
        
        Friend's of Eliza   Robbin (10/25/2009 11:47 p.m.)
        
        Slight mistake   Bridget D (10/25/2009 5:54 a.m.)
        
        Different opinions...   Rachel G (10/22/2009 9:31 a.m.)
        
        Willoughy in book   Bridget D (10/22/2009 2:50 p.m.)
        
        Bridget D....   Elizabeth K (10/22/2009 3:19 p.m.)
        
        Well reasoned & well put. nfm   nan duval (10/21/2009 4:10 p.m.)
      - Interpreting Willoughby Rachel G (10/16/2009 1:39 a.m.)
  - I think the reason many of us hate Willoughby... Elizabeth K (10/15/2009 4:30 a.m.)
    - honourable gentleman Bridget D (10/15/2009 4:45 a.m.)
      - I suppose it depends on the way one looks at it (long) Elizabeth K (10/15/2009 8:52 a.m.)
      - Good analogy- foolish victim & opportunist Criminal : -) nfm Barb JA (10/15/2009 8:35 a.m.)
- Actually it isn´t fair... MarianneR (10/14/2009 3:42 p.m.)
- Elinors opinion of the confession Barb JA (10/14/2009 10:04 a.m.)
  - Once Elinor gains some perspective... Barbara (10/14/2009 12:58 p.m.)
    - Willoughby's Guilt - What was JA's intention? Rachel G (10/16/2009 1:14 a.m.)
    - Do you think it odd though... Barb JA (10/14/2009 6:13 p.m.)
    - Willoughby only regrets what has made him unhappy... Cathy Allen (10/14/2009 3:02 p.m.)
Nobody denies the painful, genuine.... Reeba (10/13/2009 5:06 a.m.)
- Just so! Rachel G (10/13/2009 6:39 a.m.)
don't necessarily disagree Karen G. (10/12/2009 11:57 p.m.)
- A "geniune" performer - sounds a little like Marianne? Anselm (10/13/2009 9:43 a.m.)
  - a difference Karen G (10/13/2009 10:01 a.m.)
    - Humbled....humbled....humility. Aha!!!! Anselm (10/13/2009 11:59 a.m.)
      - drama queen   Karen G. (10/13/2009 11:58 p.m.)
        
        OK, fair cop!   Anselm (10/14/2009 5:09 a.m.)
        
        I must have too much share of the conversation ;)   Karen G (10/14/2009 1:29 p.m.)
        
        Marianne’s Mindset   Robbin (10/14/2009 8:26 p.m.)
        
        I definitely agree.   Anselm (10/15/2009 6:27 a.m.)
- Mrs. Smith as part of his drama LouAnn (10/13/2009 7:30 a.m.)
- Willoughby the Performer. Rachel G (10/13/2009 3:56 a.m.)
  - I very much agree with you, Rachel G Outi (10/13/2009 12:25 p.m.)
    - Many Bad Sides Robbin (10/14/2009 2:11 a.m.)
    - And Willoughby agrees with you. ;-) Reeba (10/13/2009 3:18 p.m.)

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