engaged couples and sexual activity

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engaged couples and sexual activity Written by Heather Leigh (10/8/2009 11:54 a.m.) in consequence of the missive, Eliza knowing better, penned by Bridget D

This came up in that very interesting Trollope-list discussion of The Small House at Allington -- that in this period, engaged couples were allowed more privacy than courting couples or groups of young people, and that it was tacitly understood that engagement opened the door to physical intimacy and maybe even sex (if a couple were very passionate and/or if the marriage were going to take place soon).

Engagement, especially once it was made public, was considered a binding relationship - effectively a marriage. An engaged couple might put off marrying until they had sufficient income, steady employment, and/or a suitable place to live, but they had committed their hearts and future, and it wasn't surprising if their bodies followed. (It would obviously become a problem if they got pregnant.)

So a SECRET engagement must have put them in an ambiguous state re: how much sexual activity was okay... more than none, but less than all. I imagine it would have been hard to take for long. And it would have given one fiance/e more leverage to push the other into sex.

Somehow I can imagine Lucy pushing Edward sexually! to cement his feeling of connection/obligation to her.

Makes me think of the conversation between Mrs. Croft and Mrs. Musgrove about a LONG or open-ended engagement -- maybe one of the risks there would be that the engaged couple wouldn't be able to keep their sexual relationship in check indefinitely (unless they were living apart).

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Willoughby and Eliza: More questions than answers... Jeffrey (10/1/2009 12:36 p.m.)

Bath CarolTS (10/1/2009 1:26 p.m.)
- Nuts! And I read Ch 31 so carefully, I thought.... Jeffrey (10/1/2009 2:46 p.m.)
  - Too much of a coincidence? Barbara (10/1/2009 3:09 p.m.)
  - I would imagine... Reeba (10/1/2009 4:19 p.m.)
    - Good Point; Is Willoughby a "predator?" Jeffrey (10/1/2009 5:03 p.m.)
      - I would think... Reeba (10/2/2009 10:11 a.m.)
        
        heiress Bridget D (10/4/2009 5:57 a.m.)
      - A predator, Or "just" selfish?   Heather Leigh (10/2/2009 10:43 a.m.)
        
        Sense, Sensibility & Selfishness, that's clever...   Jeffrey (10/2/2009 11:07 a.m.)
        
        Intent to do Harm   Robbin (10/2/2009 12:44 p.m.)
        
        I agree with Robbin   Melissa K. (10/2/2009 11:05 p.m.)
        
        questions of intent   Heather Leigh (10/3/2009 4:09 p.m.)
        
        Does the distinction matter...   Barbara (10/3/2009 4:17 p.m.)
        
        deliberately or negligent   Bridget D (10/4/2009 9:23 a.m.)
        
        I think the difference...   Reeba (10/4/2009 9:39 a.m.)
        
        Well said, Reeba, thank you. (nfm)   Cathy Allen (10/4/2009 12:49 p.m.)
        
        Eliz and Willoughby's guilt   Bridget D (10/5/2009 7:17 a.m.)
        
        There's the rub   Barb JA (10/6/2009 12:38 p.m.)
        
        Hear! Hear! nfm   nan duval (10/6/2009 8:50 p.m.)
        
        Excellent! nfm   Robbin (10/7/2009 12:10 a.m.)
        
        Well explained. Thanks :-) nfm   Reeba (10/7/2009 4:16 a.m.)
        
        ranging over town   Bridget D (10/7/2009 7:13 a.m.)
        
        Age difference   Barbara (10/7/2009 1:02 p.m.)
        
        Blame Eliza/Don't Blame Eliza   TimLee (10/7/2009 2:16 p.m.)
        
        I tend to believe that...   Reeba (10/9/2009 10:30 a.m.)
        
        Good point!   Barbara (10/9/2009 12:39 p.m.)
        
        Friendlessness   TimLee (10/9/2009 1:30 p.m.)
        
        Eliza knowing better   Bridget D (10/8/2009 7:08 a.m.)
        
        Judgement of a 16 year old   Barb JA (10/8/2009 10:48 a.m.)
        
        Willoughby betrayed her trust   Robbin (10/8/2009 6:29 p.m.)
        
        Great post   Karen G (10/9/2009 11:47 a.m.)
        
        point above   Karen G (10/9/2009 2:10 p.m.)
        
        Urgency   Barb JA (10/10/2009 8:20 a.m.)
        
        engaged couples and sexual activity   Heather Leigh (10/8/2009 11:54 a.m.)
        
        engagements and sex?   Bridget D (10/8/2009 1:30 p.m.)
        
        Marianne as a Gage   BarbaraB (10/12/2009 12:11 p.m.)
        
        Rape or Seduction?   Robbin (10/8/2009 5:07 p.m.)
        
        The crime of seduction   TimLee (10/8/2009 6:13 p.m.)
        
        Crime of Seduction   Robbin (10/9/2009 10:16 a.m.)
        
        seduction   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:41 a.m.)
        
        different strokes for different folks   Karen G (10/9/2009 2:07 p.m.)
        
        Criminal   Barb JA (10/4/2009 1:19 p.m.)
        
        You have hit the nail on the head.   nan duval (10/5/2009 8:06 p.m.)
        
        I see 'being predatory' as...   Reeba (10/3/2009 4:48 p.m.)
        
        Agree.   nan duval (10/3/2009 5:00 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby & vulnerable girls   Bridget D (10/4/2009 5:20 a.m.)
        
        Taking advantage.   Reeba (10/4/2009 6:33 a.m.)
        
        Willoughby   Bridget D (10/4/2009 8:23 a.m.)
        
        It ended abruptly. Who knows what his expectations were!! nfm   Reeba (10/4/2009 8:48 a.m.)
        
        WIlloughby and Marianne   Bridget D (10/4/2009 8:59 a.m.)
        
        Selfish or Careless   Robbin (10/4/2009 12:27 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby John D and Fanny   Bridget D (10/4/2009 9:02 a.m.)
        
        sins of commission/omission   Heather Leigh (10/4/2009 9:04 p.m.)
        
        Continuum   Bridget D (10/6/2009 11:15 a.m.)
      - Predator Robbin (10/2/2009 11:59 a.m.)
      - predator points of reference Heather Leigh (10/4/2009 9:32 p.m.)
        
        Dangerous Liaisons Bridget D (10/6/2009 11:11 a.m.)
      - What about the girls?   Outi (10/5/2009 2:42 p.m.)
        
        Predators are Opportunists   Robbin (10/5/2009 11:17 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby's predatoriness   Bridget D (10/6/2009 11:08 a.m.)
        
        Come hither signals   Robbin (10/7/2009 12:01 a.m.)
        
        more and less seducible girls   Heather Leigh (10/7/2009 12:38 a.m.)
        
        I think that...   Reeba (10/7/2009 4:24 a.m.)
        
        I agree   Barbara (10/7/2009 10:27 a.m.)
        
        Lydia & Eliza   Robbin (10/7/2009 11:00 a.m.)
        
        Revising my initial view of the "predator" question   Heather Leigh (10/7/2009 1:36 p.m.)
        
        Predators   Bridget D (10/8/2009 7:20 a.m.)
        
        I agree with you (I think)   Ivonne (10/8/2009 9:09 a.m.)
        
        Even though I don't agree, I do ...   Reeba (10/8/2009 11:08 a.m.)
        
        yes I agree about the child   Bridget D (10/8/2009 1:40 p.m.)
        
        Where he lived...   Barbara (10/8/2009 2:08 p.m.)
        
        Marianne knew his address, however,   kathleen (elder) (10/8/2009 2:17 p.m.)
        
        I often find myself wondering how people know where to send mail.   Barbara (10/8/2009 3:31 p.m.)
        
        Perhaps Sir John....   Reeba (10/8/2009 3:38 p.m.)
        
        You've got Mail   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:35 a.m.)
        
        Mrs. Ferrars   Barbara (10/9/2009 12:36 p.m.)
        
        Mrs Ferrars and the postman   Bridget D (10/10/2009 4:50 a.m.)
        
        Absolutely   Barbara (10/11/2009 5:30 p.m.)
        
        I have no problem...   BarbaraB (10/12/2009 1:30 p.m.)
        
        Forwarding mail   Ivonne (10/8/2009 6:48 p.m.)
        
        Forgive me for jumping in so late!   Ramya (10/8/2009 2:49 p.m.)
        
        It could also be possible....   Reeba (10/8/2009 3:35 p.m.)
        
        PS:   Reeba (10/8/2009 3:50 p.m.)
        
        I assume she did not have to pay   Ramya (10/8/2009 6:35 p.m.)
        
        Burke's landed gentry?   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:30 a.m.)
        
        But   BarbaraB (10/12/2009 3:51 p.m.)
        
        I do   CarolTS (10/8/2009 12:56 p.m.)
        
        So do I.   Rachel G (10/8/2009 5:00 p.m.)
        
        who's to blame   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:26 a.m.)
        
        Doling out the Blame   Robbin (10/9/2009 12:55 p.m.)
        
        Eliza and her friend   Bridget D (10/10/2009 4:08 a.m.)
        
        Weighing Responsibility   Robbin (10/13/2009 4:20 p.m.)
        
        ranging over town   Bridget D (10/15/2009 5:04 a.m.)
        
        I do too   Outi (10/8/2009 3:23 p.m.)
        
        Some Thoughts   BarbaraB (10/8/2009 5:17 p.m.)
        
        Hunting   Robbin (10/8/2009 6:10 p.m.)
        
        Excellent thoughts. Thanks :-)   Reeba (10/8/2009 6:16 p.m.)
        
        Eliza etc   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:16 a.m.)
        
        A well-rounded summary, but   Outi (10/9/2009 3:28 a.m.)
        
        I agree Outi   Ramya (10/9/2009 9:28 a.m.)
        
        Marianne was Seduced   Robbin (10/9/2009 11:28 a.m.)
        
        Not much help needed   Outi (10/9/2009 3:58 p.m.)
        
        Marianne broke her own heart?   Robbin (10/9/2009 7:47 p.m.)
        
        Broken hearts in modern times.   Rachel G (10/10/2009 4:24 a.m.)
        
        love and pain   Bridget D (10/10/2009 4:39 a.m.)
        
        Protecting Hearts   Robbin (10/11/2009 12:03 a.m.)
        
        I meant her heart was broken in the process   Outi (10/10/2009 4:52 a.m.)
        
        Oh dear!   Robbin (10/10/2009 10:12 a.m.)
        
        Marianne   kate lyle (10/10/2009 5:26 a.m.)
        
        Seductions   Bridget D (10/10/2009 3:41 a.m.)
        
        Marianne in love   Bridget D (10/11/2009 8:08 a.m.)
        
        Willoughby had no Right   Robbin (10/12/2009 4:27 p.m.)
        
        Agree nfm   BarbaraB (10/12/2009 6:48 p.m.)
        
        Predators & Malicious Intent   Robbin (10/9/2009 9:53 a.m.)
        
        Not sadistic   Robbin (10/8/2009 4:35 p.m.)
        
        This theme of seducing 16 years old girls   Outi (10/7/2009 3:30 p.m.)
        
        Seduced   Bridget D (10/8/2009 7:06 a.m.)
        
        Double Standard   BarbaraB (10/8/2009 11:17 a.m.)
        
        Double standard for reputation   Barbara (10/8/2009 11:56 a.m.)
        
        Victims & Villains   Robbin (10/8/2009 4:46 p.m.)
        
        Sweet 16   Bridget D (10/9/2009 4:26 a.m.)
        
        girls   Bridget D (10/7/2009 7:22 a.m.)
        
        16 year old girls?   Barbara (10/7/2009 10:25 a.m.)
        
        16   Bridget D (10/8/2009 7:13 a.m.)
        
        Age of consent   Ivonne (10/8/2009 9:22 a.m.)
        
        Right!! But...   Reeba (10/8/2009 11:12 a.m.)
        
        Distant Relation & Wife Swapping   Robbin (10/8/2009 4:32 p.m.)
        
        Wives   Bridget D (10/9/2009 5:00 a.m.)
- Bath and Eliza Bridget D (10/3/2009 6:08 a.m.)
  - We know she wrote this book before Emma CarolTS (10/3/2009 12:50 p.m.)
  - Bath Rachel G (10/3/2009 2:02 p.m.)
    - Eliza's mother Barbara (10/3/2009 3:55 p.m.)
      - Wondered if I had missed something!   CarolTS (10/3/2009 3:59 p.m.)
        
        Well....   Rachel G (10/3/2009 5:14 p.m.)
        
        A life of sin   Barbara (10/3/2009 10:07 p.m.)
        
        Eliza's life of sin   Bridget D (10/4/2009 5:10 a.m.)
Highly unlikely to be premeditated! Barbara (10/1/2009 1:31 p.m.)

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