Lydia & Eliza

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Lydia & Eliza Written by Robbin (10/7/2009 11:00 a.m.) in consequence of the missive, more and less seducible girls, penned by Heather Leigh

There are similarities between Lydia and Eliza’s stories. I agree with Reeba that Lydia eloped to be married not to have an elicit affair; her letter to Harriet confirms this in P&P, Ch. 47. Instead of taking her to Gretna Green as agreed Wickham took her to London and seduced her. I am sure it was an easy seduction but Lydia’s initial intent was honorable marriage and I think he did take advantage of her stupidity and naivety.

Like Lydia, Eliza may have believed she and Willoughby were to be married. In addition to Marianne’s belief she was engaged to Willoughby (Ch. 29) according to the conversation Col Brandon overheard (Ch. 30) the engagement between Miss Grey and Willoughby was at first secret as well. It appears Willoughby was very good at leading multiple ladies down the same primrose path and sometimes simultaneously.

There is evidence galore of Lydia’s man-craziness, flirtatiousness and vulgar manners in the text of P&P but we do not have that kind of evidence with which to color Eliza similarly in the text of S&S. What evidence is there Brandon inaccurately paints Eliza as a pathetic victim because he is angry and feels guilty? When has he has been dishonest or unfair to anyone? What has Brandon done to provoke suspicion? (:D)

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Willoughby and Eliza: More questions than answers... Jeffrey (10/1/2009 12:36 p.m.)

Highly unlikely to be premeditated! Barbara (10/1/2009 1:31 p.m.)
Bath CarolTS (10/1/2009 1:26 p.m.)
- Bath and Eliza Bridget D (10/3/2009 6:08 a.m.)
  - Bath Rachel G (10/3/2009 2:02 p.m.)
    - Eliza's mother Barbara (10/3/2009 3:55 p.m.)
      - Wondered if I had missed something!   CarolTS (10/3/2009 3:59 p.m.)
        
        Well....   Rachel G (10/3/2009 5:14 p.m.)
        
        A life of sin   Barbara (10/3/2009 10:07 p.m.)
        
        Eliza's life of sin   Bridget D (10/4/2009 5:10 a.m.)
  - We know she wrote this book before Emma CarolTS (10/3/2009 12:50 p.m.)
- Nuts! And I read Ch 31 so carefully, I thought.... Jeffrey (10/1/2009 2:46 p.m.)
  - I would imagine... Reeba (10/1/2009 4:19 p.m.)
    - Good Point; Is Willoughby a "predator?" Jeffrey (10/1/2009 5:03 p.m.)
      - What about the girls?   Outi (10/5/2009 2:42 p.m.)
        
        Predators are Opportunists   Robbin (10/5/2009 11:17 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby's predatoriness   Bridget D (10/6/2009 11:08 a.m.)
        
        Come hither signals   Robbin (10/7/2009 12:01 a.m.)
        
        girls   Bridget D (10/7/2009 7:22 a.m.)
        
        Distant Relation & Wife Swapping   Robbin (10/8/2009 4:32 p.m.)
        
        Wives   Bridget D (10/9/2009 5:00 a.m.)
        
        16 year old girls?   Barbara (10/7/2009 10:25 a.m.)
        
        16   Bridget D (10/8/2009 7:13 a.m.)
        
        Right!! But...   Reeba (10/8/2009 11:12 a.m.)
        
        Age of consent   Ivonne (10/8/2009 9:22 a.m.)
        
        more and less seducible girls   Heather Leigh (10/7/2009 12:38 a.m.)
        
        Lydia & Eliza   Robbin (10/7/2009 11:00 a.m.)
        
        This theme of seducing 16 years old girls   Outi (10/7/2009 3:30 p.m.)
        
        Sweet 16   Bridget D (10/9/2009 4:26 a.m.)
        
        Victims & Villains   Robbin (10/8/2009 4:46 p.m.)
        
        Double Standard   BarbaraB (10/8/2009 11:17 a.m.)
        
        Double standard for reputation   Barbara (10/8/2009 11:56 a.m.)
        
        Seduced   Bridget D (10/8/2009 7:06 a.m.)
        
        Revising my initial view of the "predator" question   Heather Leigh (10/7/2009 1:36 p.m.)
        
        Not sadistic   Robbin (10/8/2009 4:35 p.m.)
        
        Predators   Bridget D (10/8/2009 7:20 a.m.)
        
        Predators & Malicious Intent   Robbin (10/9/2009 9:53 a.m.)
        
        Some Thoughts   BarbaraB (10/8/2009 5:17 p.m.)
        
        A well-rounded summary, but   Outi (10/9/2009 3:28 a.m.)
        
        Marianne was Seduced   Robbin (10/9/2009 11:28 a.m.)
        
        Not much help needed   Outi (10/9/2009 3:58 p.m.)
        
        Marianne in love   Bridget D (10/11/2009 8:08 a.m.)
        
        Willoughby had no Right   Robbin (10/12/2009 4:27 p.m.)
        
        Agree nfm   BarbaraB (10/12/2009 6:48 p.m.)
        
        Seductions   Bridget D (10/10/2009 3:41 a.m.)
        
        Marianne broke her own heart?   Robbin (10/9/2009 7:47 p.m.)
        
        Marianne   kate lyle (10/10/2009 5:26 a.m.)
        
        I meant her heart was broken in the process   Outi (10/10/2009 4:52 a.m.)
        
        Oh dear!   Robbin (10/10/2009 10:12 a.m.)
        
        Broken hearts in modern times.   Rachel G (10/10/2009 4:24 a.m.)
        
        Protecting Hearts   Robbin (10/11/2009 12:03 a.m.)
        
        love and pain   Bridget D (10/10/2009 4:39 a.m.)
        
        I agree Outi   Ramya (10/9/2009 9:28 a.m.)
        
        Eliza etc   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:16 a.m.)
        
        Excellent thoughts. Thanks :-)   Reeba (10/8/2009 6:16 p.m.)
        
        Hunting   Robbin (10/8/2009 6:10 p.m.)
        
        I do too   Outi (10/8/2009 3:23 p.m.)
        
        I do   CarolTS (10/8/2009 12:56 p.m.)
        
        So do I.   Rachel G (10/8/2009 5:00 p.m.)
        
        who's to blame   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:26 a.m.)
        
        Doling out the Blame   Robbin (10/9/2009 12:55 p.m.)
        
        Eliza and her friend   Bridget D (10/10/2009 4:08 a.m.)
        
        Weighing Responsibility   Robbin (10/13/2009 4:20 p.m.)
        
        ranging over town   Bridget D (10/15/2009 5:04 a.m.)
        
        Even though I don't agree, I do ...   Reeba (10/8/2009 11:08 a.m.)
        
        yes I agree about the child   Bridget D (10/8/2009 1:40 p.m.)
        
        Where he lived...   Barbara (10/8/2009 2:08 p.m.)
        
        Burke's landed gentry?   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:30 a.m.)
        
        But   BarbaraB (10/12/2009 3:51 p.m.)
        
        Forgive me for jumping in so late!   Ramya (10/8/2009 2:49 p.m.)
        
        It could also be possible....   Reeba (10/8/2009 3:35 p.m.)
        
        I assume she did not have to pay   Ramya (10/8/2009 6:35 p.m.)
        
        PS:   Reeba (10/8/2009 3:50 p.m.)
        
        Marianne knew his address, however,   kathleen (elder) (10/8/2009 2:17 p.m.)
        
        Forwarding mail   Ivonne (10/8/2009 6:48 p.m.)
        
        I often find myself wondering how people know where to send mail.   Barbara (10/8/2009 3:31 p.m.)
        
        You've got Mail   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:35 a.m.)
        
        Mrs. Ferrars   Barbara (10/9/2009 12:36 p.m.)
        
        Mrs Ferrars and the postman   Bridget D (10/10/2009 4:50 a.m.)
        
        Absolutely   Barbara (10/11/2009 5:30 p.m.)
        
        I have no problem...   BarbaraB (10/12/2009 1:30 p.m.)
        
        Perhaps Sir John....   Reeba (10/8/2009 3:38 p.m.)
        
        I agree with you (I think)   Ivonne (10/8/2009 9:09 a.m.)
        
        I think that...   Reeba (10/7/2009 4:24 a.m.)
        
        I agree   Barbara (10/7/2009 10:27 a.m.)
      - predator points of reference Heather Leigh (10/4/2009 9:32 p.m.)
        
        Dangerous Liaisons Bridget D (10/6/2009 11:11 a.m.)
      - Predator Robbin (10/2/2009 11:59 a.m.)
      - A predator, Or "just" selfish?   Heather Leigh (10/2/2009 10:43 a.m.)
        
        Willoughby John D and Fanny   Bridget D (10/4/2009 9:02 a.m.)
        
        sins of commission/omission   Heather Leigh (10/4/2009 9:04 p.m.)
        
        Continuum   Bridget D (10/6/2009 11:15 a.m.)
        
        Intent to do Harm   Robbin (10/2/2009 12:44 p.m.)
        
        questions of intent   Heather Leigh (10/3/2009 4:09 p.m.)
        
        Selfish or Careless   Robbin (10/4/2009 12:27 p.m.)
        
        I see 'being predatory' as...   Reeba (10/3/2009 4:48 p.m.)
        
        Willoughby & vulnerable girls   Bridget D (10/4/2009 5:20 a.m.)
        
        Taking advantage.   Reeba (10/4/2009 6:33 a.m.)
        
        Willoughby   Bridget D (10/4/2009 8:23 a.m.)
        
        It ended abruptly. Who knows what his expectations were!! nfm   Reeba (10/4/2009 8:48 a.m.)
        
        WIlloughby and Marianne   Bridget D (10/4/2009 8:59 a.m.)
        
        Agree.   nan duval (10/3/2009 5:00 p.m.)
        
        Does the distinction matter...   Barbara (10/3/2009 4:17 p.m.)
        
        Criminal   Barb JA (10/4/2009 1:19 p.m.)
        
        You have hit the nail on the head.   nan duval (10/5/2009 8:06 p.m.)
        
        deliberately or negligent   Bridget D (10/4/2009 9:23 a.m.)
        
        I think the difference...   Reeba (10/4/2009 9:39 a.m.)
        
        Eliz and Willoughby's guilt   Bridget D (10/5/2009 7:17 a.m.)
        
        There's the rub   Barb JA (10/6/2009 12:38 p.m.)
        
        ranging over town   Bridget D (10/7/2009 7:13 a.m.)
        
        Rape or Seduction?   Robbin (10/8/2009 5:07 p.m.)
        
        seduction   Bridget D (10/9/2009 2:41 a.m.)
        
        different strokes for different folks   Karen G (10/9/2009 2:07 p.m.)
        
        The crime of seduction   TimLee (10/8/2009 6:13 p.m.)
        
        Crime of Seduction   Robbin (10/9/2009 10:16 a.m.)
        
        Age difference   Barbara (10/7/2009 1:02 p.m.)
        
        Eliza knowing better   Bridget D (10/8/2009 7:08 a.m.)
        
        Marianne as a Gage   BarbaraB (10/12/2009 12:11 p.m.)
        
        engaged couples and sexual activity   Heather Leigh (10/8/2009 11:54 a.m.)
        
        engagements and sex?   Bridget D (10/8/2009 1:30 p.m.)
        
        Judgement of a 16 year old   Barb JA (10/8/2009 10:48 a.m.)
        
        Great post   Karen G (10/9/2009 11:47 a.m.)
        
        point above   Karen G (10/9/2009 2:10 p.m.)
        
        Urgency   Barb JA (10/10/2009 8:20 a.m.)
        
        Willoughby betrayed her trust   Robbin (10/8/2009 6:29 p.m.)
        
        Blame Eliza/Don't Blame Eliza   TimLee (10/7/2009 2:16 p.m.)
        
        I tend to believe that...   Reeba (10/9/2009 10:30 a.m.)
        
        Good point!   Barbara (10/9/2009 12:39 p.m.)
        
        Friendlessness   TimLee (10/9/2009 1:30 p.m.)
        
        Well explained. Thanks :-) nfm   Reeba (10/7/2009 4:16 a.m.)
        
        Excellent! nfm   Robbin (10/7/2009 12:10 a.m.)
        
        Hear! Hear! nfm   nan duval (10/6/2009 8:50 p.m.)
        
        Well said, Reeba, thank you. (nfm)   Cathy Allen (10/4/2009 12:49 p.m.)
        
        I agree with Robbin   Melissa K. (10/2/2009 11:05 p.m.)
        
        Sense, Sensibility & Selfishness, that's clever...   Jeffrey (10/2/2009 11:07 a.m.)
      - I would think... Reeba (10/2/2009 10:11 a.m.)
        
        heiress Bridget D (10/4/2009 5:57 a.m.)
  - Too much of a coincidence? Barbara (10/1/2009 3:09 p.m.)

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