My point

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My point Written by Barbara (4/20/2010 1:05 p.m.) in consequence of the missive, We need to distinguish, penned by Adrian

It is possible to object to someone on romantic principle and still have that principle be valid.

It is not wrong for Elizabeth to object to Mr. Collins on the basis that she knows she could never even respect him, let alone love him, because she is objecting to real aspects of his character that are not going to go away, improve, or be possible to overlook.

I agree that for Charlotte, these objections do not hold weight compared to the prospect of a secure home and not to be dependant on her parents and brothers forever, but it does not mean that the objections are not valid, all the same.

Someone like Marianne, though, was objecting on romantic principle that was not really valid, based on superficial details--and she realized this herself later.

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Elizabeth "shooting from the hip" over Charlotte.. jeffrey (4/19/2010 1:08 p.m.)

probably a very big family... Benedicte (4/22/2010 6:19 p.m.)
Charlotte vs Lizzy Connie (4/22/2010 4:21 p.m.)
- Charlotte marries for security Aaron (4/23/2010 4:04 p.m.)
  - Women had to marry? kathleen (elder) (4/23/2010 8:06 p.m.)
    - turning down her own engagement Aaron (4/27/2010 1:48 a.m.)
      - Spot On! Lenora (4/27/2010 7:54 a.m.)
  - I agree with your post as far as it goes. Connie (4/23/2010 5:25 p.m.)
- Charlotte's financial situation Line (4/22/2010 5:48 p.m.)
  - Interesting take on it. Connie (4/22/2010 6:02 p.m.)
The plight of unmarried women... Benedicte (4/22/2010 2:52 p.m.)
Charlotte, no guiding hand for Mr Collins, but for their children Benedicte (4/21/2010 5:55 a.m.)
- everything was settled between them to the satisfaction of both Stephanie (4/21/2010 11:24 a.m.)
  - But he's not always going to be under CarolTS (4/21/2010 12:10 p.m.)
    - Escape (perhaps) is not his plan Robbin (4/21/2010 4:11 p.m.)
      - IIRC A living is a life tenure Adrian (4/21/2010 6:03 p.m.)
        
        Thanks Adrian! (:D) nfm Robbin (4/21/2010 7:28 p.m.)
Apologies for introducing this topic ahead of schedule.. jeffrey (4/20/2010 1:33 p.m.)
- We're allowed to talk about all of ch. 13-23 CarolTS (4/20/2010 2:32 p.m.)
  - Who moderates so I can respond accordingly? jeffrey (4/20/2010 5:25 p.m.)
    - Schedule Cheryl (4/20/2010 6:52 p.m.)
      - Put the Chapters on Your Calendar Lenora (4/22/2010 5:48 p.m.)
Mr Collins, Charlotte, and Lizzy Mary Anne (4/20/2010 8:17 a.m.)
- Just because you refused him did you think.... Silvia A (4/20/2010 8:26 p.m.)
  - I agree - a block or defense mechanism Karen G (4/22/2010 1:44 p.m.)
  - marriage had always been her object; Stephanie (4/20/2010 8:53 p.m.)
    - Precisely what's horrid about it Mary Anne (4/21/2010 8:35 a.m.)
      - Charlotte's margarita! Kathryn Ann (4/23/2010 10:54 a.m.)
- Elegant females refusing Barbara (4/20/2010 12:08 p.m.)
Consider that... gianni (4/19/2010 8:01 p.m.)
- Austen believed in marrying one's equal. Connie (4/19/2010 8:50 p.m.)
  - JA's own feelings about love and marriage Line (4/20/2010 10:02 a.m.)
  - Ok, so I haven't yet read... gianni (4/19/2010 10:53 p.m.)
    - I think the romantic ideals she criticizes in S&S... Connie (4/20/2010 10:49 a.m.)
      - Well, no... gianni (4/20/2010 1:21 p.m.)
        
        Let's stay on topic Cheryl (4/20/2010 2:00 p.m.)
      - Valid or invalid objections to a marriage partner   Barbara (4/20/2010 12:43 p.m.)
        
        We need to distinguish   Adrian (4/20/2010 12:53 p.m.)
        
        A very good concise point, Adrian...   jeffrey (4/20/2010 1:15 p.m.)
        
        Please add nfm if there is no further message :-) (nfm)   Line (4/20/2010 2:53 p.m.)
        
        Thanks, I forgot (senior moment) (NFM)   jeffrey (4/21/2010 8:23 a.m.)
        
        My point   Barbara (4/20/2010 1:05 p.m.)
      - I have an issue with just one of the statements here.....   jeffrey (4/20/2010 12:33 p.m.)
        
        Charlotte's feelings for Mr. Collins   Anne-Marie (4/20/2010 2:36 p.m.)
        
        I think Charlotte would do her duty by Mr. Collins   Connie (4/20/2010 2:26 p.m.)
        
        I fancy she was wanted about the mince-pies.   Stephanie (4/20/2010 2:14 p.m.)
        
        Charlotte: I am not romantic, you know   OlgaI (4/21/2010 4:24 a.m.)
        
        Stupid or just socially immature and ignorant? (nfm)   jeffrey (4/21/2010 11:59 a.m.)
        
        Unfortunately both :)   OlgaI (4/21/2010 2:26 p.m.)
        
        LOL!   Cheryl (4/21/2010 10:57 a.m.)
        
        You're welcome :)   OlgaI (4/21/2010 2:43 p.m.)
        
        You know, ...   gianni (4/21/2010 11:21 p.m.)
        
        Uneasy about their friendship?   Line (4/22/2010 9:45 a.m.)
        
        I've never been bothered by that   Karen G (4/22/2010 10:54 a.m.)
        
        plus Jane   OlgaI (4/22/2010 7:51 a.m.)
        
        The eternal question   Line (4/22/2010 9:36 a.m.)
        
        I agree Jeffrey - Charlotte is no dummy and she could   AnnetteJ (4/20/2010 12:54 p.m.)
  - the business of love-making relieved them Stephanie (4/19/2010 9:39 p.m.)
Dissapointment and age B. Michelle (4/19/2010 6:50 p.m.)
- Never really knew Charlotte Barbara (4/20/2010 12:28 p.m.)
  - That Lizzy shoul dbe shocked at Charlotte's... Adrian (4/20/2010 12:45 p.m.)
    - Missing all the signs Barbara (4/20/2010 12:59 p.m.)
      - Not taking the signs seriously Kathi (4/20/2010 7:55 p.m.)
      - And I would agree with you...   Adrian (4/20/2010 1:04 p.m.)
        
        Maybe Lizzy isn't as good a judge of character as she thinks-nfm   LisaS (4/20/2010 6:53 p.m.)
        
        How often has she been wrong?   Kathi (4/20/2010 9:11 p.m.)
- Not quite the same boat CarolTS (4/19/2010 10:08 p.m.)
  - Do we drop our friends because they do something AnnetteJ (4/20/2010 8:27 a.m.)
    - Lizzy's loss of closeness to Charlotte... Adrian (4/20/2010 12:35 p.m.)
      - Is that because of whom Charlotte married or Lizzy's view   AnnetteJ (4/20/2010 12:58 p.m.)
        
        How about love, marriage hopes for Lizzy? nfm   Connie (4/20/2010 2:40 p.m.)
        
        Not sure why that would be a problem. nfm   AnnetteJ (4/20/2010 4:26 p.m.)
        
        Well, if you were Lizzy...   Connie (4/20/2010 4:47 p.m.)
        
        I'm not so sure   Nancy Ann (4/24/2010 11:41 a.m.)
        
        I did not mean to say that advice was the only reason...   Connie (4/24/2010 3:40 p.m.)
        
        I still hope that Lizzy   Nancy Ann (4/25/2010 9:43 a.m.)
        
        I imagine that if Lizzy can be civil to Darcy...   Adrian (4/25/2010 9:09 p.m.)
        
        sensible, intelligent young woman [] readily joined by Jane   Stephanie (4/20/2010 9:00 p.m.)
        
        I think "romanticized" is the wrong adj. for Jane.   Connie (4/21/2010 10:51 a.m.)
        
        I agree with that view. Why leave a friendship of long   AnnetteJ (4/21/2010 8:18 a.m.)
        
        How do we know that Mr Collins is not   kathleen (elder) (4/21/2010 7:21 p.m.)
        
        nor could Elizabeth persuade [Jane] to consider it as improbable   Stephanie (4/21/2010 11:35 a.m.)
        
        Too early in the AM: "Any danger of that" nfm   AnnetteJ (4/21/2010 8:20 a.m.)
Engaged to Mr. Collins! my dear Charlotte, impossible! Stephanie (4/19/2010 3:50 p.m.)
- Her initial reaction CarolTS (4/19/2010 4:43 p.m.)
- Elizabeth, in an off-handed way, showing concern for.. jeffrey (4/19/2010 4:28 p.m.)
- There is a great essay entitled "Sleeping with Mr Collins&qu AnnetteJ (4/19/2010 4:19 p.m.)
  - Great point OlgaI (4/21/2010 4:40 a.m.)
    - My image of Mr Collins is based entirely on kathleen (elder) (4/21/2010 7:09 p.m.)
      - I was talking of another take but   OlgaI (4/22/2010 4:20 a.m.)
        
        I agree that Charlotte can probably   kathleen (elder) (4/22/2010 6:22 a.m.)
        
        Unintelligent by nature or nurture?   Adrian (4/22/2010 12:59 p.m.)
        
        The terms of the entail are   kathleen (elder) (4/22/2010 2:11 p.m.)
        
        Security and happiness...   Connie (4/22/2010 10:18 a.m.)
        
        I agree   Line (4/22/2010 9:50 a.m.)
        
        From near-certain misery to...   gianni (4/22/2010 9:37 a.m.)
        
        Living w/ her family is near-certain misery?   kathleen (elder) (4/22/2010 10:12 a.m.)
        
        Because she is not a child any more   OlgaI (4/22/2010 11:21 a.m.)
        
        I think this is a modern, Western attitude   Connie (4/22/2010 12:26 p.m.)
        
        I don't think so   OlgaI (4/22/2010 2:21 p.m.)
        
        So JA should have married?   kathleen (elder) (4/22/2010 11:34 a.m.)
        
        My five cents   Nina RG (4/22/2010 12:03 p.m.)
        
        Obviously Charlotte would rather marry than not   kathleen (elder) (4/22/2010 12:06 p.m.)
        
        Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance   Nina RG (4/22/2010 12:12 p.m.)
        
        Perfect for Each Other   Robbin (4/23/2010 1:29 p.m.)
        
        Interesting comparison Charlotte to Mr. Bennet   Karen G (4/23/2010 1:45 p.m.)
        
        An Exemption   Robbin (4/23/2010 2:02 p.m.)
        
        It would have been interesting   Karen G (4/22/2010 1:10 p.m.)
        
        LOL -- according to the unmarried Charlotte, yes! nfm   kathleen (elder) (4/22/2010 12:22 p.m.)
        
        Yes if she would have liked   OlgaI (4/22/2010 11:52 a.m.)
        
        So, do you believe that JA chose   kathleen (elder) (4/22/2010 12:11 p.m.)
        
        Don't you please use JA   OlgaI (4/22/2010 12:19 p.m.)
        
        I do NOT judge her by myself :-)   kathleen (elder) (4/22/2010 12:21 p.m.)
        
        Exactly!   OlgaI (4/22/2010 12:23 p.m.)
        
        Charlotte's future   OlgaI (4/22/2010 7:38 a.m.)
  - Eeeyew...perish the mental image of THAT! (NFM) jeffrey (4/19/2010 4:35 p.m.)
    - similarities between Sir William and Mr. Collins Carol (4/26/2010 3:44 p.m.)
      - Similarities & Differences Robbin (4/27/2010 6:51 p.m.)
      - Never thought of that before. Thanks. nfm BarbaraB (4/27/2010 2:09 p.m.)

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